I figured out Bogner EQ - it's more than just a log Treble pot (with clips) also NAD Bogner content

[Ben Waylin]

The Uber is the Bogner amp that’s got the strangest eq. The presence circuit uses an inductor that makes it behave so strangely compared to most other amps. Most of the other Bogners I’ve owned or played have a tone stack that behaves more like a Marshall, some of the frequencies might be a little different though.

gyrator ?

 

[bubucci]

What's the channel mod?

It is switching between lo input on first channel and hi input on drive channel...useful for live playing...

 

[loganflynn294]

gyrator ?

Maybe? I’m still a beginner/amateur when it comes to this stuff haha. From my understanding, instead of being a low pass filter in the negative feedback loop, the presence is a weird RLC circuit that uses an inductor to dump certain midrange frequencies to ground while still letting highs and lows pass through. I think that’s why it can get tight like an amp with negative feedback without losing all the midrange harmonics. But I could also be totally wrong haha. Anyways, I love being able to play with the presence knob on my Rev 2 Uber to completely change the character of the amp with just small adjustments.

 

[thegame]

Ah. So, a couple things there.

The pre boost / post EQ details were included in the original post. It's there in the gear section at the bottom. However it is a long post though so I get it. I don't see the clips as disingenuous because for one, the main point was to illustrate what the Bogner mid knob does, which the clips do show rather clearly I think.

As for the tones themselves, in my mind, adding those specific ingredients to any amp is basically a non-issuse because it's all 100% clean EQ curves and 100% clean boosts, so nothing is happening that couldn't also be done with, say, a different set of hotter guitar pickups, a different choice of cab, or a different set of mics and mic'ing techniques.

Also, relative to the cost of the amp, EQ pedals and clean boosts are almost nothing. Complexity-wise, it's also almost nothing. A pedal or so in front and an EQ in the loop and you're there. Done deal, Ez Pz. It's just EQ, so all it can do is enhance or remove frequencies already there in the amp anyway. Besides, I can guarantee you that there is no amp out there that sounds closer to a boosted and EQ'd Helios 100 than a boosted and EQ'd Helios 100, just like there's no amp out there that's going to sound like a boosted and EQ'd Recto more than a boosted an EQ'd Recto, know what I mean? And personally I think this Helios setup sounds great, and therefore it's worth listening to and talking about.

What I'm saying is that if you love the sound of those clips up there, there's no single amp you can get that will get you closer to those clips than a Helios 100 with a bass cut and clean boost in front, and an EQ pedal in the loop. : ) People expect too much from guitar amps (or any other singular piece of gear) on their own. Things become a lot simpler and easier when you start thinking about guitar tone more like one big chain of dozens of gain and filtering stages as opposed to just a few magical pieces that should blend together to form perfection.

Thanks for clearing it up. Initially I did read the mention of the bass cut/clean boost but when it came time to reply, it just escaped my memory banks. My error, sorry. I also automatically assumed the applied post EQ was of a highly colored, character rich type of application. Something that fundamentally colors the tone in a pleasing, intentionally non transparent way, like a digital approximation of Pultech or Telefunken vintage EQ units. Bottom line is I guess there's much less "studio magic" in the clips than I first thought. I still like it lol

 

[TheGreatGreen]

Thanks for clearing it up. Initially I did read the mention of the bass cut/clean boost but when it came time to reply, it just escaped my memory banks. My error, sorry. I also automatically assumed the applied post EQ was of a highly colored, character rich type of application. Something that fundamentally colors the tone in a pleasing, intentionally non transparent way, like a digital approximation of Pultech or Telefunken vintage EQ units. Bottom line is I guess there's much less "studio magic" in the clips than I first thought. I still like it lol

Cool man, glad to clarify.

And thanks! I'm really digging this amp. The more I mess with it, the more stuff I'm finding that I like about it. Turns out the Plexi input and low gain tones in general are just as great as the high gain stuff.

 

[FourT6and2]

Ah ok I heard others say it was ptp and just took their word for it lol. Never looked inside it or of pics inside. I’m not a tech guy. I just judge the way they sound. Maybe the Telos isn’t either then, but I thought that one sounded really good too. Either way those 2 models I’d guess must have something different going on in there vs other Bogner’s to sound so much more raw & organic like a vintage amp over the more smooth, polished, blander sound their other amps have. To me the Helios & Telos don’t at all sound like Bogner’s. I remember them actually sounding Marshall-y

The Helios is basically a JCM800 circuit with two inputs that engage or bypass gain stages + diode clipping. It's the most "raw" or "Marshally" sounding because it's an 800 with Jose mod for the most part. None of the component values are far off from what most hot-rodded Marshalls use. It's my favorite Bogner by far.

 

[braintheory]

The Helios is basically a JCM800 circuit with two inputs that engage or bypass gain stages + diode clipping. It's the most "raw" or "Marshally" sounding because it's an 800 with Jose mod for the most part. None of the component values are far off from what most hot-rodded Marshalls use. It's my favorite Bogner by far.

That all sounds right, but why then do most other Jose Marshall type amps like Friedman’s or Fortin Meshuggah sound comparatively so much more homogenized & lacking in organic tonal nuances vs the Helios? And why do all the other Bogner’s sound lacking in that way too vs the Helios or Telos? I just assumed it was possibly from ptp or better quality components since I’m not a tech guy, but I guess not. As much as I love my Original version Uber it also has that more homogenized, flat newer amp sound. The Helios was for sure a great surprise to me in that regard. Was not expecting that

I also haven’t last tried a Helios since 2018, so I may hear it a little differently now. Hard to say

 

[FourT6and2]

That all sounds right, but why then do most other Jose Marshall type amps like Friedman’s or Fortin Meshuggah sound comparatively so much more homogenized & lacking in organic tonal nuances vs the Helios?

I'm not sure I 100% understand what this means. But I'll say I've owned originals of these amps and built identical circuits for myself. And they all sound similar. I wouldn't say the Helios is any more "organic" sounding than the others. It could just come down to how people tend to use them. The Meshuggah is marketed to a specific crowd. So they're gonna play specific types of music using 7/8 strings and run crazy boosts for an aggressive and bright sound. I've not heard anybody do that with a Helios, even though it would absolutely sound very similar.

Also NFB circuit has a huge impact on an amp. You can alter the Meshuggah's NFB circuit by changing two resistors and adding a cap, and it would sound like a completely different amp.

And why do all the other Bogner’s sound lacking in that way too vs the Helios or Telos? I just assumed it was possibly from ptp or better quality components since I’m not a tech guy, but I guess not.

Just different circuits and different voicing. The Helios seems to be more of Bogner's homage to '80s Marshall tones.

 

[braintheory]

I'm not sure I 100% understand what this means. But I'll say I've owned originals of these amps and built identical circuits for myself. And they all sound similar. I wouldn't say the Helios is any more "organic" sounding than the others. It could just come down to how people tend to use them. The Meshuggah is marketed to a specific crowd. So they're gonna play specific types of music using 7/8 strings and run crazy boosts for an aggressive and bright sound. I've not heard anybody do that with a Helios, even though it would absolutely sound very similar.

Also NFB circuit has a huge impact on an amp. You can alter the Meshuggah's NFB circuit by changing two resistors and adding a cap, and it would sound like a completely different amp.




Just different circuits and different voicing. The Helios seems to be more of Bogner's homage to '80s Marshall tones.

It’s very hard to explain in words what I mean (just something to hear really), but what I feel is an organic sound is independent of style of music whether it’s the most extreme styles of metal or classic rock or clean. The other Bogner’s sound much more polished (I call it homogenized bc it’s not actually polished imo), smooth, far less complexity/details surrounding each note played and not responsive to expressive nuances in playing like the Helios or Telos. I have no idea technically why some amps are and aren’t good in that regard (this is where older gear does much better IME). To me this is the main thing that distinguishes “nice” gear & exceptional gear in all the categories. What some on here refer to as 3D. Most gear fails in this regard IME. I think the best instruments in all categories (like a Stradivarius) separate themselves from others by having a more complex tone. Just my opinion. This “it” factor is what keeps me going as a gearhead. Sorry for the rant

 

[TheGreatGreen]

Also NFB circuit has a huge impact on an amp. You can alter the Meshuggah's NFB circuit by changing two resistors and adding a cap, and it would sound like a completely different amp.

It’s interesting that you bring this up. I was just thinking it would be cool to be able to mess with the Helios' negative feedback. The effects loop has a “return volume” knob, and I wonder if it’s possible just to bypass that pot and add some internal resistor or something instead to set the loop for unity gain, and then you’d have an open pot port available to use for adjusting the negative feedback if you could find the right way to route it into the board.

I have basically zero experience with modding amps like that so I wouldn’t know the first thing about what to actually do, but I wonder if any electronics experts here might be able let us know how difficult something like that might be to pull off.

 

[FourT6and2]

It’s interesting that you bring this up. I was just thinking it would be cool to be able to mess with the Helios' negative feedback. The effects loop has a “return volume” knob, and I wonder if it’s possible just to bypass that pot and add some internal resistor or something instead to set the loop for unity gain, and then you’d have an open pot port available to use for adjusting the negative feedback if you could find the right way to route it into the board.

I have basically zero experience with modding amps like that so I wouldn’t know the first thing about what to actually do, but I wonder if any electronics experts here might be able let us know how difficult something like that might be to pull off.

Yeah that's doable. You could do it as you say: hardwire the FX return pot using a resistor and then use the hole for variable NFB control. Or you could use a tiny trim pot on the board for NFB and adjust internally to keep the FX control.

 

[NorCal_Val]

The Helios is basically a JCM800 circuit with two inputs that engage or bypass gain stages + diode clipping. It's the most "raw" or "Marshally" sounding because it's an 800 with Jose mod for the most part. None of the component values are far off from what most hot-rodded Marshalls use. It's my favorite Bogner by far.

The Helios is really the Marshall I've always wanted. Even with the 80s clipping engaged, it still has that "big" distortion feel/sound.
It is not a "modern" tone. Now, I just need the right 4x12 for it. My "magic" Friedman 4x12, with v30s and Greenbacks, is not
playing nice with the Helios.

 

[VHTStark]

It’s very hard to explain in words what I mean (just something to hear really), but what I feel is an organic sound is independent of style of music whether it’s the most extreme styles of metal or classic rock or clean. The other Bogner’s sound much more polished (I call it homogenized bc it’s not actually polished imo), smooth, far less complexity/details surrounding each note played and not responsive to expressive nuances in playing like the Helios or Telos. I have no idea technically why some amps are and aren’t good in that regard (this is where older gear does much better IME). To me this is the main thing that distinguishes “nice” gear & exceptional gear in all the categories. What some on here refer to as 3D. Most gear fails in this regard IME. I think the best instruments in all categories (like a Stradivarius) separate themselves from others by having a more complex tone. Just my opinion. This “it” factor is what keeps me going as a gearhead. Sorry for the rant

Not sure if it is because my amp falls in the mystical "older is better" category or what, but I know my trusty 1996 101b standard has every bit the feel, nuance and expressiveness as any Helios. That is the reason I got rid of my Helios 100; my Ecstasy could do 90% of what the Helios could and was more versatile. It can also get pretty raw and aggressive: not quite the wild harmonic rawness of the Helios, but surprisingly much more so than my BE 100. Can't really speak for later model Ecstasy's.

My old Rev Green Uber, I also found to be pretty awesome feeling as well. I had a love/hate with it, as I found it hard to "reign in" so speak. I found my Rev Blue easier to dial in....although it is not as raw and doesn't feel quite as good. High hopes for the Uber Ultra I have on order that it can bring that OG Uber rawness an feel...with the ability to mold/control it!

 

[braintheory]

Not sure if it is because my amp falls in the mystical "older is better" category or what, but I know my trusty 1996 101b standard has every bit the feel, nuance and expressiveness as any Helios. That is the reason I got rid of my Helios 100; my Ecstasy could do 90% of what the Helios could and was more versatile. It can also get pretty raw and aggressive: not quite the wild harmonic rawness of the Helios, but surprisingly much more so than my BE 100. Can't really speak for later model Ecstasy's.

My old Rev Green Uber, I also found to be pretty awesome feeling as well. I had a love/hate with it, as I found it hard to "reign in" so speak. I found my Rev Blue easier to dial in....although it is not as raw and doesn't feel quite as good. High hopes for the Uber Ultra I have on order that it can bring that OG Uber rawness a feel...with the ability to mold/control it!

Yeah I do remember the late ‘90’s XTC’s sounding better, but haven’t heard them side by side to a Helios. The later XTC’s to me aren’t that special. I agree the Helios had that growl vs the XTC’s & Friedman’s

My Original Revision Uberschall is still for me one of my top 4 favorite amps I’ve owned, but no amp has it all. Some of the best feel of any amp I’ve had too like you said. Also, like you said it’s so cartoonish sounding that it can be a bit hard to tame if needed, but I often like its wildness. That got tamed/neutered in later revisions

I also have been very curious about the Uber Ultra, but haven’t made an order yet. Based on Reza’s clip it didn’t seem to get as raw or wild, but I liked that it could get a lot tighter and more modern and also quite aggressive. Will have to try one in person

 

[headlessdeadguy]

Not sure what all of the tech talk means but this thread inspired me to try different settings on my 101b last night and now I’m obsessed. Thanks

 

[VHTStark]

Yeah I do remember the late ‘90’s XTC’s sounding better, but haven’t heard them side by side to a Helios. The later XTC’s to me aren’t that special. I agree the Helios had that growl vs the XTC’s & Friedman’s

My Original Revision Uberschall is still for me one of my top 4 favorite amps I’ve owned, but no amp has it all. Some of the best feel of any amp I’ve had too like you said. Also, like you said it’s so cartoonish sounding that it can be a bit hard to tame if needed, but I often like its wildness. That got tamed/neutered in later revisions

I also have been very curious about the Uber Ultra, but haven’t made an order yet. Based on Reza’s clip it didn’t seem to get as raw or wild, but I liked that it could get a lot tighter and more modern and also quite aggressive. Will have to try one in person

The Helios is kind of a sleeper amp in the modded Marshall world. Lots of guys want more rawness and all that and the Helios does a pretty good job. It definitely is more of a throwback amp, as opposed to say, a Friedman, where it is all polished and there is no crazy low end to reign in, or wild top end harmonics.

Ya, I do remember my old Uber being a wild beast! Lol! Here is the weird thing: most guys bought them for crushing rythm playing, but for me, it was one of (maybe the...) best feeling lead amp I have owned. It had this nice mix of saturation and bounce/chew....but at the same time it was so punchy and in your face across all frequencies.

Ya, I take Reza's review vids with a grain of salt. You are right in that it doesn't sound as raw or huge. But it does come across as very aggressive, punchy and tighter/more open than my Rev Blue. I doubt it will be quite as wild as the OG....but could still be a very versatile and great Uber in its own right!

 

[braintheory]

The Helios is kind of a sleeper amp in the modded Marshall world. Lots of guys want more rawness and all that and the Helios does a pretty good job. It definitely is more of a throwback amp, as opposed to say, a Friedman, where it is all polished and there is no crazy low end to reign in, or wild top end harmonics.

Ya, I do remember my old Uber being a wild beast! Lol! Here is the weird thing: most guys bought them for crushing rythm playing, but for me, it was one of (maybe the...) best feeling lead amp I have owned. It had this nice mix of saturation and bounce/chew....but at the same time it was so punchy and in your face across all frequencies.

Ya, I take Reza's review vids with a grain of salt. You are right in that it doesn't sound as raw or huge. But it does come across as very aggressive, punchy and tighter/more open than my Rev Blue. I doubt it will be quite as wild as the OG....but could still be a very versatile and great Uber in its own right!

Agreed on all. As far as a production amp to get a raw Marshall sound, the Helios & Telos are tough to beat. The Telos is even more underrated imo, but less gain that the Helios. The Naylor is another good one for that

I’ve always had the OG Uber up there as one of my favorites for shred type leads tones, not quite as much for slower leads. I will definitely have to try an Uber Ultra at some point

 

[Ventura]

The Uber is the Bogner amp that’s got the strangest eq. The presence circuit uses an inductor that makes it behave so strangely compared to most other amps. Most of the other Bogners I’ve owned or played have a tone stack that behaves more like a Marshall, some of the frequencies might be a little different though.

Couldn't agree more and IMHO - most evidenced on the TwinJet.

 

[TheGreatGreen]

So I played a Marshall JCM 2000 DSL 100 a day or two ago and discovered something. The Bogner EQ's Mid knob does behave the same as modern Marshall EQ, and the guys pointing that out were right. Both Bogner and Marshall use Mid knobs that act as high shelf controls. Who knew?

HOWEVER, a ton of other amps don't have EQ that behaves like this. I'm used to other brands like Mesa, Fender, EVH, and VHT amps. All those amps seem to use more "standard" Mid controls that only raise and lower the mids. What I'm not used to are Marshall amps, even though they're super common. It looks like the EQ info in the first post also applies to Marshalls, at least the JCM 2000 and presumably the 900 and 800, too. Not sure if the JVMs are like this.

Basically, what I'm saying is it turns out that Bogners and quite a few Marshalls use Mid knobs that act not just as Mid controls, but as high shelf controls. that raise and lower everything above a certain frequency.

 

[FourT6and2]

So I played a Marshall JCM 2000 DSL 100 a day or two ago and discovered something. The Bogner EQ's Mid knob does behave the same as modern Marshall EQ, and the guys pointing that out were right. Both Bogner and Marshall use Mid knobs that act as high shelf controls. Who knew?

HOWEVER, a ton of other amps don't have EQ that behaves like this. I'm used to other brands like Mesa, Fender, EVH, and VHT amps. All those amps seem to use more "standard" Mid controls that only raise and lower the mids. What I'm not used to are Marshall amps, even though they're super common. It looks like the EQ info in the first post also applies to Marshalls, at least the JCM 2000 and presumably the 900 and 800, too. Not sure if the JVMs are like this.

Basically, what I'm saying is it turns out that Bogners and quite a few Marshalls use Mid knobs that act not just as Mid controls, but as high shelf controls. that raise and lower everything above a certain frequency.

Have you used this? http://www.guitarscience.net/tsc/ma...3=22n&RB_pot=LogB&RM_pot=Linear&RT_pot=Linear