IRs Dos and Donts?

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Catthan

Catthan

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How do you use them, any tips?

Modded marshall type amp/ high gainer.
i use YA ones in STL libra and load amp with Suhr RL.
running everything at around -9db at the input.

I find that there’s always something missing; a perceived loss of gain, a constant need for boosting and something not quite right in the tone and feel that’s hard to put in words.

how do you get best results out of IRs?
 
I use two IRs, one that sounds 90% there and a second one that's similar. I phase cancel the second one and dial it back anywhere from -0.1 to -0.9 db until I hear gross high end. Remove the phase cancel and now I have a great sound with the nasty high end phase cancelled out. If I'm forced to use a single IR, I pick from a handful I like. I dial the level in differently for every use case; DAW, Quad Cortex Output, Amp Sim, whatever. I dial the IR up to the point where I'm clipping and then back it down maybe 1db. I will run my IRs at 0.0db if I can get away with it.

On the Suhr RLIR, play pretty hard while dialing the DI level up until the clip light comes on. Turn the knob a tiny bit back down. Turn on a boost and do it again. I have a handful of York Audio IRs and I hate them, they felt flat and uninspired for heavy stuff. For metal IRs I usually look to dudes who primarily mix and produce stuff; Jens Bogren, Kristian Kohle, Mendel bij de Leij, etc..
 
Don’t make it complicated. Stick to what real cabs and mics you like. Don’t think of IR’s as something “different” than a real mic and cab setup, part of the problem I think people have is the mindset. Stick to what you like. And then learn how some IR makers make their IR’s. Some give multiple positions( like starting at the center of the cap and giving varying degrees of brightness, this is my favorite and how I would actually mic a cab), some give “sweet spots” ( this is dumb to me, everyone’s idea of tone and “sweetspots on the speaker is different), and some do mic mixes ready to go, or a combo of all of the above. I like it simple, one mic 95 percent of the time is plenty if you use your ears.
 
Catthan said:
How do you use them, any tips?

Modded marshall type amp/ high gainer.
i use YA ones in STL libra and load amp with Suhr RL.
running everything at around -9db at the input.

I find that there’s always something missing; a perceived loss of gain, a constant need for boosting and something not quite right in the tone and feel that’s hard to put in words.

how do you get best results out of IRs?
Click to expand...

My favorite IR for Marshall high gain types is Ownhammer's MRBW GNR which is taken from a '71 Basketweave cab.
https://www.ownhammer.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=438

Start with using some of the mixed mic settings and use one IR unless you know how to deal with phase alignment.

And keep in mind IRs are not what your ears are hearing in the room. It's what the mic is picking up from the speaker.
 
See mine below for free. (Captured my FL Diezel V30 cab) The SE SE7 ones are insanely good. I've been using that one(Cone) specifically with the ML Oracle and Softube Engl suite lately.
 
Catthan said:
How do you use them, any tips?

Modded marshall type amp/ high gainer.
i use YA ones in STL libra and load amp with Suhr RL.
running everything at around -9db at the input.

I find that there’s always something missing; a perceived loss of gain, a constant need for boosting and something not quite right in the tone and feel that’s hard to put in words.

how do you get best results out of IRs?
Click to expand...

What you're describing is pretty much the standard difference between hearing a rig just listening to the cab in the same room, vs hearing that same exact same rig in a recording environment, mic'd up and listening through monitors. If you compare a raw cab-in-the-room tone to that same cab with an SM57 in front and you only listen to the mic'd signal from the control room, it's going to sound clearer, a bit more strident, a bit less bloated, more detailed, less gainy, etc.

I see this issue brought up by people who are just starting to mess with IR's, especially people who aren't used to hearing their rigs mic'd up and listened to through studio monitors. If you're not used to the studio, then you'd think (at least I did when I started messing with IR's) that all the weirdness is somehow unique to IR's as a technology but nope. The exact same changes happen with a real mic on your real cab.

Most IR's, if they're made well, are pretty much indistinguishable from the real cab/mic setups they're generated with.

Real growth happens in the mind of the player the moment it sinks in for them that the realms of "in the room tone" vs "studio" tone are vastly different, and that the same rig at the same settings will sound entirely different when transferred from one of those scenarios to the other.


The biggest trick is to find the right IR's, which make no mistake is not easy. The speaker cab is the most influential part of the sound, and most IR's to my ears kind of suck, or maybe it's more diplomatic to say "they're all so different, the possible scope for what an IR can sound like is so broad, that most are probably not going to sound how you want." You really have to go hunting for the ones that suit you. Also, I find blending a few IR's works best for me. If you get lucky and find any singular ones that just work and sound great by themselves, that's awesome. Hang onto them and don't loose them. But get used to the idea of blending them as an option.

Also, don't be afraid to use post EQ in addition to IR's. There's a philosophy among amp demo guys about using as little post processing or alteration as possible in the name of honestly and integrity for potential amp buyers. That's fine for them, but if you're not recording specifically to make amp demos that you claim are unprocessed, then who cares! Do whatever it takes to get the sound you want. It's ok to use all the tools available to accomplish that.
 
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I just picked up some of Michael Nielsen‘s last night. They are very good.
 
TheGreatGreen said:
What you're describing is pretty much the standard difference between hearing a rig just listening to the cab in the same room, vs hearing that same exact same rig in a recording environment, mic'd up and listening through monitors. If you compare a raw cab-in-the-room tone to that same cab with an SM57 in front and you only listen to the mic'd signal from the control room, it's going to sound clearer, a bit more strident, a bit less bloated, more detailed, less gainy, etc.

I see this issue brought up by people who are just starting to mess with IR's, especially people who aren't used to hearing their rigs mic'd up and listened to through studio monitors. If you're not used to the studio, then you'd think (at least I did when I started messing with IR's) that all the weirdness is somehow unique to IR's as a technology but nope. The exact same changes happen with a real mic on your real cab.

Most IR's, if they're made well, are pretty much indistinguishable from the real cab/mic setups they're generated with.

Real growth happens in the mind of the player the moment it sinks in for them that the realms of "in the room tone" vs "studio" tone are vastly different, and that the same rig at the same settings will sound entirely different when transferred from one of those scenarios to the other.


The biggest trick is to find the right IR's, which make no mistake is not easy. The speaker cab is the most influential part of the sound, and most IR's to my ears kind of suck. You really have to go hunting for the ones that suit you. Also, I find blending a few IR's works best for me. If you get lucky and find any singular ones that just work and sound great, that's awesome. Hang onto them and don't loose them. But get used to the idea of blending them as an option.

Also, don't be afraid to use post EQ in addition to IR's. There's a philosohpy among amp demo guys about using as little processing or alteration as possible in the name of honestly and integrity. That's fine for them, but if you're not recording specifically to make amp demos that you claim are unprocessed, then who cares! Do whatever it takes to get the sound you want. It's ok to use all the tools available to accomplish that.
Click to expand...

What he said ☝️
 
I also like Ownhammer mixes from what I've tried. Sound way better than what my dumbass can get from actually miking up my cabs.

And I agree don't be worried about using EQ if you want. That's what it's there for. No reason to go insane looking for subtle difference in IRs when you can just find one close and EQ it.
 
use a good DI box (this can color your tone), find the right IR for your mix, eq out whistles, and be a bit more aggressive on low/high pass filters. if you have a preamp vst that helps and also oversample your plugins. this is what got mine to sound the best but I still prefer using a mic as I never got out of the 'something missing' phase
 
VESmedic said:
Don’t make it complicated. Stick to what real cabs and mics you like. Don’t think of IR’s as something “different” than a real mic and cab setup, part of the problem I think people have is the mindset. Stick to what you like. And then learn how some IR makers make their IR’s. Some give multiple positions( like starting at the center of the cap and giving varying degrees of brightness, this is my favorite and how I would actually mic a cab), some give “sweet spots” ( this is dumb to me, everyone’s idea of tone and “sweetspots on the speaker is different), and some do mic mixes ready to go, or a combo of all of the above. I like it simple, one mic 95 percent of the time is plenty if you use your ears.
Click to expand...
I'm still waiting on the big reveal whether you was using IR's on that recording a couple months back or not.
 
rushcentrale said:
What he said ☝️
Click to expand...

Yep, he's 1000% correct.

Most of these "common issues" are explained by not being familiar with close miced tones in general

I'll add, OP, that with most IRs there's virtual mic placement options. I guarantee if you move the virtual mic to get more "room" type sounds you'll find them more to your liking, because that's what you're used to.

The problem is, for hard rock and heavy metal, at the very least those are blended with a close mic tone, and not the main tone itself
 
Of course I make IRs and I make them for different uses.

Some I use tube amp color and some not.
There are many levels to this and IRs created to be pure IR can miss crucial interactions than amps see.

There is no wrong or right but there are many variables.
 
Thanks Everyone.

I'm aware of how live with a cab vs IR is meant to feel different, particularly when someone is limited to playing and mixing via cans too.
Untreated rooms and basic desktop monitors add to the overall IR problem - how one hears their guitar in the control room of a studio played either via a mic'd cab or IR is not how I hear it here on my desk so loads of compounding factors leading to higher deviation from one's reference tone, mine being live.

tried what @vultures is doing with the phase thing and it is interesting as it makes the guitar sit back a bit without intervening on the EQ range (1-3kHz) or adding verb (I find them all synthetic) that would accomplish the same thing. It takes the middiness a bit further away from the ears but there's still enough left to cut in the mix.
don't know if that's the purpose but it's cool.

w.r.t to EQ post IR, that's easy particularly now with the Wiz MC1. most of it is there already so I can get away with high and low pass filters.

Another thing that I'm reflecting on from my live experience is how, live, you're effectively playing the speaker and the room and that informs the playing dynamics and the amp settings. with IRs or, even worst, DI'ing straight in, you play just a front end but it's back end that colours the tone and creates the experience.. not sure what to do with that thought other than live with it..

mid-gain crunchy tones a la AC/DC I find suffer the most with IRs. although from what I read the production of getting that lower gain full wall of sound to come through was a bit more involved than just amps in the room..
 
York, Bogren and stock Two Notes IRs sound great to me.
 
When I decided to jump to IRs for home use I wanted to minimize the option paralysis and general anxiety of having thousands of files to cycle through, so I went with the Bluguitar Blubox. Just a few good sounding IRs in good sounding hardware, no way of loading more, and I'll do the rest with EQ if needed. That's one way to think of it, at least, and actually is far more in line with the handful of cabs and mics I've used in real life :LOL:
 
Fair-enough Dave; option paralysis is definitely a thing.
 
I come out of the Suhr RL into a 5 band Mesa EQ and then into the AxeFx III for IR’s. I settled on 2 IR’s from Bogren panned left and right out to time based effects and then to my studio monitors.

The beauty is it’s always ready to record without changing anything around.
 
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