Mötley Crüe Shout at the Devil-Inside the Album w/Tom Werman

[311splawndude]

You can hear differences throughout a bands discography too.

For example:

Van Halen got progressively more polished
KSE got progressively more perfect
Mastodon got progressively more pop like
Dokken
Ratt
Slipknot
I mean, think of all the examples of this?

Some of that may have been change in producers/mixers/engineers/other factors. Like someone said though a lot of bands are going from demo tapes to 1st album (low budget) to 2nd album (bigger budget) on up the chain.

Some bands purposely do not follow this pattern. 311 is one of them. Grassroots was recorded in a very pro way with individual tracks but mixed to sound live and 'a bit sloppy'. The "Blue Album" was recorded in all analog live and came out super polished and tight. So almost in the reverse of what you'd expect.

Who else has been like that? Led Zeppelin? Beatles? Rush? Metallica?

 

[romanianreaper]

You can hear differences throughout a bands discography too.

For example:

Van Halen got progressively more polished
KSE got progressively more perfect
Mastodon got progressively more pop like
Dokken
Ratt
Slipknot
I mean, think of all the examples of this?

Some of that may have been change in producers/mixers/engineers/other factors. Like someone said though a lot of bands are going from demo tapes to 1st album (low budget) to 2nd album (bigger budget) on up the chain.

Some bands purposely do not follow this pattern. 311 is one of them. Grassroots was recorded in a very pro way with individual tracks but mixed to sound live and 'a bit sloppy'. The "Blue Album" was recorded in all analog live and came out super polished and tight. So almost in the reverse of what you'd expect.

Who else has been like that? Led Zeppelin? Beatles? Rush? Metallica?

Yeah it is crazy. Like Dokken for example. Tooth and Nail's production was washy and reverbed to death. Then they came back with two great sounding albums. RATT did the opposite. "Out of the Cellar" had some great low end and then "Invasion" sounded very thin and distant. Of course they did rebound.

Led Zeppelin nailed a great sound with their 4th album. You listen to "When the Levee Breaks" and those drums are "THE" sound. Good lord. Great balance, etc. Led Zeppelin II and III do sound very different from one another. I personally don't like the drum sound on The Beatles "Let it Be".

 

[311splawndude]

You can hear differences throughout a bands discography too.

For example:

Van Halen got progressively more polished
KSE got progressively more perfect
Mastodon got progressively more pop like
Dokken
Ratt
Slipknot
I mean, think of all the examples of this?

Some of that may have been change in producers/mixers/engineers/other factors. Like someone said though a lot of bands are going from demo tapes to 1st album (low budget) to 2nd album (bigger budget) on up the chain.

Some bands purposely do not follow this pattern. 311 is one of them. Grassroots was recorded in a very pro way with individual tracks but mixed to sound live and 'a bit sloppy'. The "Blue Album" was recorded in all analog live and came out super polished and tight. So almost in the reverse of what you'd expect.

Who else has been like that? Led Zeppelin? Beatles? Rush? Metallica?

Yeah it is crazy. Like Dokken for example. Tooth and Nail's production was washy and reverbed to death. Then they came back with two great sounding albums. RATT did the opposite. "Out of the Cellar" had some great low end and then "Invasion" sounded very thin and distant. Of course they did rebound.

Led Zeppelin nailed a great sound with their 4th album. You listen to "When the Levee Breaks" and those drums are "THE" sound. Good lord. Great balance, etc. Led Zeppelin II and III do sound very different from one another. I personally don't like the drum sound on The Beatles "Let it Be".

+100%

I was thinking of all of your examples too

Sadly - I miss those old 'under-produced' tracks

Invasion is my favorite Ratt album and not because of the production. I just like the tunes. Loved the early Van Halen and Zep stuff for the same reason. Whole Lotta Love and Levee Breaks and Black Dog just have this falling apart at the seams thing going on. I dig that.

 

[romanianreaper]

Invasion is my favorite Ratt album and not because of the production. I just like the tunes.

There are some great hidden gems on that one like "Between the Eyes" and "What You Give is What You Get".

I was a huge RATT fan and even had the EP back in the day. That one smoked!! Sweet Cheater, You Think You're Tough, etc.

 

[Kordoba]

When it comes to Dokken and Ratt I hear it differently than you guys. For me Tooth and Nail and Invasion of Your Privacy were the best produced albums overall for both bands. My big problem with T&N is the reverb crazy drums that aged poorly. But the vocals, acoustic and all electric guitars on Into the Fire? Damn.

Invasion of Your Privacy sounds a lot punchier with Out Of the Cellar kind of muddy in comparison. As much as I love the songs on Under Lock and Key, the overall production was not as lively as Tooth and Nail. I do think Back for the Attack was a big improvement in production vs ULAK.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

When it comes to Dokken and Ratt I hear it differently than you guys. For me Tooth and Nail and Invasion of Your Privacy were the best produced albums overall for both bands. My big problem with T&N is the reverb crazy drums that aged poorly. But the vocals, acoustic and all electric guitars on Into the Fire? Damn.

Invasion of Your Privacy sounds a lot punchier with Out Of the Cellar kind of muddy in comparison. As much as I love the songs on Under Lock and Key, the overall production was not as lively as Tooth and Nail. I do think Back for the Attack was a big improvement in production vs ULAK.

I agree on your assessment of Dokken. Let's be honest, it was all about the guitars. Those drums are some of the cheesiest and worst drums recorded for that era. Almost sounds like mixed in electric snare. just really really bad as were a lot of the drum performances that completely lacked imagination. No character.

I think in part a lot of today's perfection is driven by the fact that it has become expensive to rent studios. The business isn't as profitable as it used to be and you can't waste 6 months renting a studio and have engineers and producers playing around with gear. You want quick results that compare to everyone else's quick results. Shit drummer? Time align...not the best performance or tuning or room? Sample it. Don't get me wrong, some albums really sucked hard in the 80's production wise but they all sounded like individual pieces of work and not sampled from the same library. You could also tell that they were played by humans and not time aligned.

Anyway, I hope there is a revival of authentic performances and recordings in the future. Blend digital recording realm with real performances. Treat it more like tape and go for sections rather than editing in and fixing individual notes.

/ end rant

 

[311splawndude]

^ +1 Kapo

80's production might have been hit or miss but the cool part is that there was a lot of experimentation and maximizing the guitars which is what made that rock/metal so endearing I think. For guitarist especially.

Would love to see a revival of that. Get back to the roots. Do some analog. Make some mistakes. Put it on tape.

And 'Invasion of your Privacy' sounds much better cranked up in my Suburban with Bose. Fucking mids just come tearing out.

Favorite song on Tooth and Nail is probably 'Without Warning'. Reminds me of when I first listened to that album in full and it has no drums

 

[romanianreaper]

I agree on your assessment of Dokken. Let's be honest, it was all about the guitars. Those drums are some of the cheesiest and worst drums recorded for that era. Almost sounds like mixed in electric snare. just really really bad as were a lot of the drum performances that completely lacked imagination. No character.

Yep, no doubt. There was such a friendly, yet competitive thing going on with these guitarists and it came out thru the music.
The 80s hard rock/metal scene was a riff machine and the solos were out of this world. Jake, DeMartini, Lynch, and all of these other guys were just smoking and those styles and tones fit the music so well.

Agree with you on the drums man. Not memorable at all, LOL!

 

[romanianreaper]

Would love to see a revival of that. Get back to the roots. Do some analog. Make some mistakes. Put it on tape.

I agree!! The actual sound quality is better but need mistakes in there. I remember reading something about how our ears and brain subconsciously pick up on stuff like that. When the mistakes, etc. are in there, it is more "real" and sounds like being in the same room.

Isn't that crazy how our minds can pick up on that? You would think more polished sounds better but it doesn't. Our ears know something is not right.

 

[311splawndude]

Right

 

[romanianreaper]

We all got a bit off track with the 80s metal but was going to mention some stuff about "Shout".

All of the instruments fit together well on the songs. If Nikki Sixx was a phenomenal bass player, it wouldn't have worked. Like on "Red Hot", that bass line he plays underneath allows Mick to just jam. The songs are all so great on that album. "Too Young to Fall in Love" is one of my favorites. Motley definitely had a sound and a look and it is true that the other bands were often following them. I loved how they stayed ahead of everyone. As soon as people got all dolled up around the Strip, they did the biker thing.

 

[311splawndude]

Yeah, Shout is a pretty special album for me. Like you, I was already a KISS fan. For me, KISS lost its appeal after say Dynasty (with a very notable exception of Asylum). Motley filled that void for me. I had never heard of them before until MTV. An older friend of mine (who's older brother would buy us beer) bought that vinal album and played it for me and I was just floored. Hard to explain. Scared, excited, shocked. I mean, that's what they wanted right? It worked, and it worked well. Is it OK to like this? Am I old enough? I better not let my mom hear this. Right?

ahh the memories.

Yeah - 'Too Young to Fall in Love' is also one of my all time favorite Crue songs. Video was awesome too - even though it is probably considered cheese city today

 

[Beyond Black]

I was in 8th grade in ‘84 when Shout came out. At the mall, my Mom let me pick out two albums, and they were Shout and Holy Diver...OMG...They blew my head clean off my shoulders. Those albums made a huge impression on me that still lasts to this day.

 

[romanianreaper]

I was in 8th grade in ‘84 when Shout came out. At the mall, my Mom let me pick out two albums, and they were Shout and Holy Diver...OMG...They blew my head clean off my shoulders. Those albums made a huge impression on me that still lasts to this day.

Badass!!!

I give my Mom crap constantly because growing up we were always in church, and even though my Mom let me listen to a lot of stuff around that time, she was not a fan of Ozzy, etc. I give her a hard time now because she always sends me videos of her singing along to Skid Row or Bon Jovi or some other band. And she drinks a lot of beer now. LOL!

 

[romanianreaper]

Yeah, Shout is a pretty special album for me. Like you, I was already a KISS fan. For me, KISS lost its appeal after say Dynasty (with a very notable exception of Asylum). Motley filled that void for me. I had never heard of them before until MTV. An older friend of mine (who's older brother would buy us beer) bought that vinal album and played it for me and I was just floored. Hard to explain. Scared, excited, shocked. I mean, that's what they wanted right? It worked, and it worked well. Is it OK to like this? Am I old enough? I better not let my mom hear this. Right?

ahh the memories.

Yeah - 'Too Young to Fall in Love' is also one of my all time favorite Crue songs. Video was awesome too - even though it is probably considered cheese city today

Oh yeah, good stuff!!

I have a weird relationship with the KISS stuff. As you know I have some stuff that I collected like magazines, etc. KISS represents being like 6 to 8 years old and being completely visually and aurally blown away by a band. Everyone else was listening to easy listening and all of that garbage. KISS helped get me away from that stuff.

Same thing for Crue. Actually the first "metal" I remember seeing on MTV was Quiet Riot. From then on, I was hooked on metal.

 

[311splawndude]

Yeah, Shout is a pretty special album for me. Like you, I was already a KISS fan. For me, KISS lost its appeal after say Dynasty (with a very notable exception of Asylum). Motley filled that void for me. I had never heard of them before until MTV. An older friend of mine (who's older brother would buy us beer) bought that vinal album and played it for me and I was just floored. Hard to explain. Scared, excited, shocked. I mean, that's what they wanted right? It worked, and it worked well. Is it OK to like this? Am I old enough? I better not let my mom hear this. Right?

ahh the memories.

Yeah - 'Too Young to Fall in Love' is also one of my all time favorite Crue songs. Video was awesome too - even though it is probably considered cheese city today

Oh yeah, good stuff!!

I have a weird relationship with the KISS stuff. As you know I have some stuff that I collected like magazines, etc. KISS represents being like 6 to 8 years old and being completely visually and aurally blown away by a band. Everyone else was listening to easy listening and all of that garbage. KISS helped get me away from that stuff.

Same thing for Crue. Actually the first "metal" I remember seeing on MTV was Quiet Riot. From then on, I was hooked on metal.

Yeah. Quiet Riot 'Cum on Feel the Noise' was one of the first 'metal' videos. From an MTV Video perspective the only thing heavier before that might of been Van Halen but I honestly am not even sure 'Unchained' was even out on video yet. Then Crue, Ratt, Ozzy vids and we were off to the races

As far as KISS. I totally get it. I used to collect magazines, posters, etc but nothing even close to your collection. I also used to draw them a lot costumes and all. I mean, I knew about Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath but they were not as accessible. It was KISS that was all over the radio, at least mine, and had their pictures in all the mags. (Circus, Teen Beat, I can't even remember all of them)

 

[romanianreaper]

As far as KISS. I totally get it. I used to collect magazines, posters, etc but nothing even close to your collection. I also used to draw them a lot costumes and all. I mean, I knew about Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath but they were not as accessible. It was KISS that was all over the radio, at least mine, and had their pictures in all the mags. (Circus, Teen Beat, I can't even remember all of them)

Dude, how could you forget Hit Parader and Creem? LOL! Creem was the magazine that actually tricked KISS into taking off their makeup. They said "oh we just talked to your management and they said it is ok". Haha.

Yeah, last year I got this new supervisor at work. We had a sit down and I was telling him about me playing guitar and music and I mentioned KISS. All relaxed-like, he says "oh, I have an old KISS magazine. The one with the blood or something. I'm trying to get rid of it". Of course I about died. So I told him I'd like to buy it. The awesome part is that he sold it to me for literally hundreds less than it's worth. I just wanted to have it. That and the pinball machine are the KISS collectibles everyone wants.

 

[311splawndude]

Here is a great interview with Eddie Kramer discussing how back in the day they would leave those mistakes in.

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/led_zeppelin_engineer_talks_famous_song_with_sloppy_jimmy_page_performance__track_where_guitarist_used_fender_strat.html

This is specific to Led Zeppelin.

 

[romanianreaper]

Here is a great interview with Eddie Kramer discussing how back in the day they would leave those mistakes in.

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/led_zeppelin_engineer_talks_famous_song_with_sloppy_jimmy_page_performance__track_where_guitarist_used_fender_strat.html

This is specific to Led Zeppelin.

Badass!!! Everything Zeppelin does is gold to me anyway and this just adds to it.