modern high gain amp vs. old amp with boost pedals

[ChurchHill]

I don't think it's the physical age that matters. It's the circuit design. The SLO has a few cascaded gain stages, a clipping circuit, and a hi-def power section. It's definitely a "modern" high-gain amp. Arguably one that helped create the genre. Compare that to a JCM800, for example, which is definitely closer to a "vintage" amp if we're actually talking about circuit design and not just age. The SLO's crunch channel can certainly cop a "vintage" sound though.

I agree that physical age has little to do with whether or not an amp is vintage or modern. Either term is a little subjective, too. Just as an aside, the SLO has been around in basically its original form for 30 years. If you look back 30 years before the SLO, '57, Fender was making tweeds, the 5F6A Bassman was still 2 years away, and Marshall wouldn't officially be around for another 5 years. But I digress... just the historian in me coming out.

Anyway, IMHO, the SLO is a modern amp. I agree, too, that it helped create the genre, arguably as much if not more than Boogie or the Marshall MV amps. The fact that it's still in production is a testament to its status, and it's still as relevent today as it ever was. So is a 2203, which can produce some very vintage and some quite modern sounds (with or without a boost). Obviously very different amps, but both are capable of a range of tones that can cross from vintage to modern.

When I think of vintage amps, I think of pre-'67 Fenders, real Plexis (with the plexiglass panels), AC30s, and the like. When I think of modern amps, I think of Bogners, Diezels, Soldanos, Fryette's, and the like. To me, 2203s, Boogie Mk.Is, and similar fall into a kind of grey area between the two. But these are strictly my opinions based on amps I either do or have owned, and probably influenced by when I started playing guitar.

As you pointed out, a SLO can cop some vintage sounds, even though it's a modern amp. My Herbert can, too, but I would never describe that as a vintage amp. The XTC, probably the most versatile amp I've ever played, is all over the map and can do both exceedingly well. With an MXR Micro Amp pushing my stock 2203 with the mids dumped, I can get some truly crushing tones. Many amps can do both, and that's the point I'm trying to make. Does that make one inheritantly better than the other? I don't think so, but again, that's only my opinion.

I'd be interested to find out some more about what specific tones or amps the OP considers vintage and which are modern. For instance, would you consider Metallica's tone on Kill 'Em All vintage? As compared to their tone on RTL or MOP or later? I always thought it was an interesting progression from Marshalls, through several interations of Boogies, etc. I've always thought it was interesting how an AC30 could add definition and warmth to a Dual Rec, too, but mixing amps is getting fairly off-topic.

 

[idnotbe]

I'd be interested to find out some more about what specific tones or amps the OP considers vintage and which are modern. For instance, would you consider Metallica's tone on Kill 'Em All vintage? As compared to their tone on RTL or MOP or later? I always thought it was an interesting progression from Marshalls, through several interations of Boogies, etc. I've always thought it was interesting how an AC30 could add definition and warmth to a Dual Rec, too, but mixing amps is getting fairly off-topic.

what i assumed for the old amps are SLP ~ JCM800.
what i assumed for the tone is 80's rock & metal - let's say SLO, Friedman or Cameron level of gain / sound.

arguing one amp is vintage or modern is totally off-topic for me.
just want to know the gear options to reach that sound.

personally i prefer modern amps without pedals, just because i used to do and i don't have much experience with pedals.
so, i'd like to know the pros and the cons of the both approaches.

 

[MetalThrasher]

I'm a mesa fan as I have a Mark III and Mark V! Don't know what an old amp means but I also have a Marshall TSL 122 combo. The Marks IMHO can do metal better without a boost pedal! I initially hated the TSL but after boosting the crunch channel with a TS it became a new amp!

 

[ChurchHill]

Well, with an SLP, it's either going to be ridiculously loud and you'll probably need a pedal, anyway. For 80's rock, most of them were modified to a greater or lesser degree, many with a master volume added (not necessarily PPIMV), some with clippers and/or additional gain stages. There are some more modern amps, a few you mentioned, Splawn also comes to mind, that are similar.

With an 800 (I'm assuming 2203, but there are others), again pretty loud to get into the good stuff that happens when the power amp gets cooking. You'd do well with a pedal here, too. Some typical choices would be a Tube Screamer (Maxon OD808, Ibanez, etc), a Rat, MXR Distortion+ or Micro Amp. Just a few that were common in the 80s, but there are almost literally 1000000 choices these days.

For me, I've always liked to make the amp do the work. So, for me back in the day, I loved my Mark III, Studio Pre, and later Mark IV. That was all I needed and still does the trick a lot of the time. I've never owned a Mark IIC+, but have had friends with them and they are definitely worthy of their reputation. To me, these are modern amps, but they will definitely get into all the 80s tones.

For modern amps, one of the best at 80s tones is the Bogner 20th Shiva. It's hellaciously versatile, amazing cleans, can get into brutal territory, but with the Mode and Shift off, it definitely gets the 80s tones. I don't (yet) own a Friedman, but I would images both the BE100 and the Small Box (probably the Dirty Shirley, too), will get there as well. Another I'd like to try but haven't yet is the Diezel Paul.

Personally, I prefer modern amps without pedals, too. It's just easier to simply plug in and, IMHO, they're usually more versatile. The downside is they all more or less have a signature sound (Bogner, Friedman, Splawn, SLO, etc.). To my ears, modern amps are a little more compressed, have bigger lows (not necessaily tighter), bigger highs, and aren't quite as complex in the mids, but this sentence is a gross overgeneralization.

I think one of the advantages of using a vintage amp (2203, etc.) with a pedal is there are so many flavors of pedals, you can get a lot of different sounds (but not necessaily at the same time depending on how big your pedalboard is). With AIAB pedals and a cleanish amp (SLP at reasonable volume, Fender, Hiwatt, etc), you can get really close to a lot of things (think Friedman BE-OD, Diezel VH4 pedal, several from Catalinbread, Tech21, tons more). Pedals are cheaper than amps, but while these types of pedals get close, they aren't quite the same as the real thing. Then again, a great modded SLP or a cranked 2203 aren't just close, they're the real thing. Another thought might be the JCM900s. They wouldn't need a pedal but, again just IMHO, are closer to the JCM800s than they are to more modern amps.

If I had to pick one for 80s sounds, 80% of the time, I'd go with a Mark Series... any of them. The other 20% of the time, I'd go with the 20th Shiva. I don't need anything but a cable and both will get me there.

 

[Mailman1971]

Modern all day.
Rather cruise around in a Lamborghini at 35 mph in first gear. Then slam it home and take off @ 110mph. Then take a chevette with a turbo charger and running it at 8000 rpm.
I can great great rock tones out my modern Amps. From cock rock hair metal. To old Joe Walsh. To modern death sludge. The new gain stages are just incredible.
My flave of the day is the Evh stealth el34. It can do it all.

 

[Badronald]

I’m older and grew up playing Vintage non master amps and I prefer the modern amps.
I do love them all but am really tired of pedals for gain. The new amps are so killer. Versatile.

Back in the day we were really trying to get the amps to sound like modern amps anyway. Man, if we had a VH4 back then! Damn!

Also, effects are so much better to use these days with the great loops.

 

[milkchickenbomb]

An old amp with a boost pedal will sound like an old amp with a boost pedal (not a bad thing).
A modern high gain amp will sound like a modern high gain amp (also not a bad thing).

Use the right tool for the job. It's going to depend on the sound you need for the application. Music is just like painting. You choose the right color and brush for the look and tonality you want. There are no rules here. I choose the guitar, pickups, amp, cab, and speakers for the sound I want at the time. I'm never going to go, "oh I need to use a JCM800 with a boost for everything because some dude on the interwebs said so."

Some bands and music wouldn't sound right with this amp or that amp. Just gotta think about the big picture here. The amp needs to fit in with the rest of the band. For example, Adam Jones from Tool actually prefers the Dual Rectifier to the VH4. He would rather use the Boogie. But the rest of the band says the VH4 fits the mix and style and timbre of where the band is these days. I don't think Killswitch Engage would sound the same if they used boosted JMPs instead of modern high gain amps. They probably did run JCM800s at one point though. Just use whatever you think sounds right.

Damn. Post #2 and it's /thread

 

[nevusofota]

An old amp with a boost pedal will sound like an old amp with a boost pedal (not a bad thing).
A modern high gain amp will sound like a modern high gain amp (also not a bad thing).

Use the right tool for the job. It's going to depend on the sound you need for the application. Music is just like painting. You choose the right color and brush for the look and tonality you want. There are no rules here. I choose the guitar, pickups, amp, cab, and speakers for the sound I want at the time. I'm never going to go, "oh I need to use a JCM800 with a boost for everything because some dude on the interwebs said so."

Some bands and music wouldn't sound right with this amp or that amp. Just gotta think about the big picture here. The amp needs to fit in with the rest of the band. For example, Adam Jones from Tool actually prefers the Dual Rectifier to the VH4. He would rather use the Boogie. But the rest of the band says the VH4 fits the mix and style and timbre of where the band is these days. I don't think Killswitch Engage would sound the same if they used boosted JMPs instead of modern high gain amps. They probably did run JCM800s at one point though. Just use whatever you think sounds right.

Damn. Post #2 and it's /thread

I don't fully agree with some of this. I think ANY of the amps mentioned in this post could sound 90% the same with some tweaking and/or adding various OD pedals. The last 10% is cork sniffing.

 

[MrFlexx]

some ppl say, for ex, "JCM800 with SD-1 will stomp Friedman" or sth like that.
then, the other guy can say "i would sell my all Friedman, if it were possible".

a simple reply like "i prefer boost pedals" cannot elaborate the discussion.
so, i want to hear "WHY" as well as your preference.
and your set up info is also appreciated.

my limited experience is...

modern high gain amp : thicker, modern tone. but less dynamic.
old amp with boost pedals : better than stock old amp. but hard to eliminate the bloom and scooped mid.

I owned tons of amps during my +30 years as a session player (Diezel's/Mesas's, Marshall's Bogner's, Elmwood's etc.) and my main amp today is the Friedman Smallbox. The tone of the Smallbox is thick and have loads of dynamics on both channels. The Plexi channel is a bit thicker and has more dynamics still. If I want more gain and even thicker tone but with retained dynamics and gain structure I kick in the Friedman Buxom Boost. This boost is nothing short of amazing. The thing that surprised me the most was that just by dial the boost knob clockwise is like having a Smallbox with more gain on tap. It doesn’t sound like you added an overdrive or boost pedal. The added gain really sounds like it’s coming out of the Smallbox itself. To explain how good the Buxom Boost is I can tell you the following thing: I’ve had a mail conversation with Dave himself about having him modifying my Smallbox by adding the HBE-switch, C45 and SAT-switch, but now I don’t feel there’s a need for it anymore. By using the Buxom Boost to boost my Smallbox makes it sound as big and aggressive as the BE100 but with the vintage touch of the Smallbox.

There’s one more thing making the Buxom Boost extremely versatile, and that is that if you dial the boost knob counter clockwise it will actually lower the gain of the Smallbox without destroying the tone. This means that you can dial in the Smallbox with the gain on 10 of the BE channel and then engage the Buxom Boost and have a low gain sound but with the BE character. So there’s loads of variations making a 2-channel amp like the Smallbox a multi-channel monster of amp. And I haven’t even mentioned the Tight Knob or EQ of the Buxom Boost. The sound palette is huge.

As you can see on me signature I also use the ENGL Retro Tube 100 head and the ENGL Powerball II...and my avatar is my now sold Diezel Herbert MKII. So I have some experience of both vintage sounding and modern sounding amp.
It all depends on what you’re after to be able to recommend you what to go for. If you want more of a vintage sound but with tons of gains on tap I'd go for the ENGL Retro Tube 100 as it covers everything from Jazz and Blues to Balrog Metal. If you’re after a something between modern and vintage that covers all styles, go for the ENGL Powerball 2. It's nothing like the original Powerball which I hate. If you're more into vintage covering blues and hard rock go for the Friedman Smallbox. If you want to be able to get more gain out of it, buy the Buxom Boost to go with the Smallbox.

 

[Starman22]

Marshall NMV or JCM with the right pedal is undeniably brutal and has the kerrang that only a Marshall can provide. A D Recto with the right boost is tight as hell and just slays.

75% of all modern amps are wired up to give a version of these two tones so really not much besides maybe Soldano was breaking into uncharted territory.

Im talking tubes not SS. There is a lot of unusual and heavy SS stuff also.

 

[psychodave]

Here is Ola England playing a 2C+. Sounds modern to me.
https://youtu.be/DJPkGfMRflQ

Here is an old JCM800. Sounds modern to me.

https://youtu.be/y1Z-Y5ax0Zc