Opinions about needing an EQ in the loop

  • Thread starter Thread starter MadAsAHatter
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The way I look at it, any EQ in the loop is like any post EQ used in recording, as there’s no way to do it other than that way. Whether it’s from the board, a rack in a send/return at the board, or on a buss before the tape machine (back in the day), it’s just the way it was done, and the closest way to achieve that is in the loop. Anything before the amp is (obviously) pre distortion, so you’re selecting certain frequencies to be more or less distorted than others, which can help not make it wooly or woofy, or too trebly or whatever. Powerful tools, and for all us 80s guys the bedrock of an awful lot of the sounds we grew up on (LA hair metal in particular).
 
DanTravis62 said:
In a way, I think this is kind of a "playing/recording at home" versus "playing with a band" type of debate

I can definitely see how an EQ in the loop would be fun to fuck around with, just dicking around

But being dependent on that in a live band setting just seems like a bad idea
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Yeah I don’t even do much of either these days since my focus is classical guitar, but I also got that impression that it’s fun to mess with for a few minutes, but hard to imagine it being as effective in a more serious context
 
TheGreatGreen said:
I think I've developed my opinion specifically because of my Bogners, particularly the Helios 100, hah. I love the raw and ragged "vintage meets modern" gain character it has, but its tonestack leaves a lot to be desired I think. For example, the Mid knob acts more like a high shelf that starts just below the mids, and the amp is very light in the lows, even with Bass and Depth maxed. It's tough to get that amp where I want it overall with just the onboard EQ. Adding an EQ in the loop in that amp can totally transform it. The EQ can give the amp the low end thump it needs to rock, and you can make broad-Q adjustments to cutting or boosting mids that take the amp in really awesome directions you just can't reach with the onboard controls.

I'll admit most amps aren't like that though.
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That’s fair. The Ubers also have maybe the strangest eq knobs I’ve experienced in any amp lol, but I still ultimately got what I wanted from my OG Uber without any pedals

I remember the helios’s also being like that. My 100 I had and 50 had a terrific juicy, midrange growl very close to a good late ‘70’s JMP2203/4, but sounded small form the light low end. I find gear that has such good quality tone in the midrange tends to almost always be not as impressive elsewhere no matter what I’d do. I usually like to just run them in some of my beefier sounding cabs/speakers to compensate, but more often just play up what they do well and use something like my 20w gb’s and middy pickups, RFT, Tungsram or Siemens tubes to make that midrange growl even meaner and grindier. It’ll never be an Uberschall, Megaltih beta or Blueface, but just my approach I like with those kinds of amps
 
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braintheory said:
That’s fair. The Ubers also have maybe the strangest eq knobs I’ve experienced in any amp lol, but I still ultimately got what I wanted from my OG Uber without any pedals

I remember the helios’s also being like that. My 100 I had and 50 had a terrific juicy, midrange growl very close to a good late ‘70’s JMP2203/4, but sounded small form the light low end. I find gear that has such good quality tone in the midrange tends to almost always be not as impressive elsewhere no matter what I’d do. I usually like to just run them in some of my beefier sounding cabs/speakers to compensate, but more often just play up what they do well and use something like my 20w gb’s and middy pickups, RFT, Tungsram or Siemens tubes to make that midrange growl even meaner and grindier. It’ll never be an Uberschall, Megaltih beta or Blueface, but just my approach I like with those kinds of amps
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That's exactly why the Helios is my favorite Bogner.

It's one of the few more "modern" sounding amps that has that serious 2203 style midrange growl and kerrang.

I've never owned one, but borrowed one for a bit, and for me it needed the extra bass response of Redbacks, t75s, k-100s, something like that. Even then, like @TheGreatGreen I ended up dialing the bass high (for me, anyways - I am one of the most low end averse people on RT lol) like around 2 or 3 o clock. Running it with a quad of vented t75s (which have massive, thunderous low end) it was absolutely sick. It sounded good with other speakers, but with something more low-end centric it sounded huge.
 
DanTravis62 said:
That's exactly why the Helios is my favorite Bogner.

It's one of the few more "modern" sounding amps that has that serious 2203 style midrange growl and kerrang.

I've never owned one, but borrowed one for a bit, and for me it needed the extra bass response of Redbacks, t75s, k-100s, something like that. Even then, like @TheGreatGreen I ended up dialing the bass high (for me, anyways - I am one of the most low end averse people on RT lol) like around 2 or 3 o clock. Running it with a quad of vented t75s (which have massive, thunderous low end) it was absolutely sick. It sounded good with other speakers, but with something more low-end centric it sounded huge.
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The Telos is also imo just as good for those reasons and very underrated imo (not as suited for you probably though, more JTM45-esque). Those are the only 2 Bogner's I've tried that actually have to me an organic, raw sound with real grit in the mids. I actually don't hear really anything modern about their sound. I remember them sounding a lot like those older Marshall's, but with more gain, compression (clipping I think?) and maybe 90 something percent as organic, raw as them, which I mean in a very positive way, probably more organic and raw sounding than I remember the reissue Marshall SLP's being

When I had my Helios I was mostly playing it at the time through my Ubercab, so that gave it some pretty good beef, but I also ran the bass pretty high. I still though wouldn't choose it for most modern or more heavy styles myself. Those Celestion's you mentioned I find have quite big low end for celestion's, but I found vs JBL's, Altec 417C's, Fane Crescendo's or even current F90's, no Celestion has in the cards that kind of low or high end, but of course imo far superior midrange tone. If I had those speakers at the time it could've been interesting to hear with the Helios. JBL's combined with Redbacks or 20w GB's on top is especially killer IME
 
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braintheory said:
The Telos is also imo just as good for those reasons and very underrated imo (not as suited for you probably though, more JTM45-esque). Those are the only 2 Bogner's I've tried that actually have to me an organic, raw sound with real grit in the mids. I actually don't hear really anything modern about their sound. I remember them sounding a lot like those older Marshall's, but with more gain, compression (clipping I think?) and maybe 90 something percent as organic, raw as them, which I mean in a very positive way, probably more organic and raw sounding than I remember the reissue Marshall SLP's being and maybe about on par with Wizard's and Naylor's in that department

When I had my Helios I was mostly playing it at the time through my Ubercab, so that gave it some pretty good beef, but I also ran the bass pretty high. I still though wouldn't choose it for most modern or more heavy styles myself. Those Celestion's you mentioned I find have quite big low end for celestion's, but I found vs JBL's, Altec 417C's, Fane Crescendo's or even current F90's, no Celestion has in the cards that kind of low or high end, but of course imo far superior midrange tone. If I had those speakers at the time it could've been interesting to hear with the Helios. JBL's combined with Redbacks or 20w GB's on top is especially killer IME
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I love the telos. It would absolutely kill in the context of a classic punk band or something ACDC style, but yes, it wouldn't be something I would or could ever use for my own stuff. The clean and edge of breakup tones on the Telos are absolutely insane too.
 
DanTravis62 said:
I love the telos. It would absolutely kill in the context of a classic punk band or something ACDC style, but yes, it wouldn't be something I would or could ever use for my own stuff. The clean and edge of breakup tones on the Telos are absolutely insane too.
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Yes the Telos surprised me. For what it was going for I think I actually was even a bit more impressed with it than the Helios. Bogner should make more amps like those 2
 
braintheory said:
Yes the Telos surprised me. For what it was going for I think I actually was even a bit more impressed with it than the Helios. Bogner should make more amps like those 2
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Could not possibly agree more

I've never really gotten along with the xtc and all variations of the uber at all - I know both are well loved on RT, but they both just aren't for me. The early revision XTCs sound great for leads (when other people play them) but they are impossible to dial in, and just way too dark. ubers, also sound good when other people play them. I can't seem to find the goldilocks zone of crunch without fizz on ubers. I prefer my rhythm tones to have way more midrange kerrang and less fizz. They sound aggressive, sure, but it's just not very musical sounding to me.

i Liked the Goldfinger and Shiva okay, but feature and versatility wise think they need less weird shit and more functional shit. If bogner made an amp with the shiva's clean channel, the helios high gain, and a Telos mid gain channel, they would probably put friedman out of business lol.

The Helios and Telos were both good enough to where I was really taken aback, because I was expecting dark tones + weird ass features/eq shit like the uber and xtc. The Bogner Modded Poundcake I sold MetalHeadMike, that was fucking sick too, but obviously that's a one off thing that would be hard to find again.

The thing is, when you're spending crazy $$$ on an amp like that, it seems wild to me that you need one or even 2 (!!! as some people have mentioned) eq pedals with extreme settings for your normal, everyday type of setup. Like, why not just buy a different amp? If it's a small, surgical thing, it makes more sense to me I suppose.
 
DanTravis62 said:
Could not possibly agree more

I've never really gotten along with the xtc and all variations of the uber at all - I know both are well loved on RT, but they both just aren't for me. The early revision XTCs sound great for leads (when other people play them) but they are impossible to dial in, and just way too dark. ubers, also sound good when other people play them. I can't seem to find the goldilocks zone of crunch without fizz on ubers. I prefer my rhythm tones to have way more midrange kerrang and less fizz. They sound aggressive, sure, but it's just not very musical sounding to me.

i Liked the Goldfinger and Shiva okay, but feature and versatility wise think they need less weird shit and more functional shit. If bogner made an amp with the shiva's clean channel, the helios high gain, and a Telos mid gain channel, they would probably put friedman out of business lol.

The Helios and Telos were both good enough to where I was really taken aback, because I was expecting dark tones + weird ass features/eq shit like the uber and xtc. The Bogner Modded Poundcake I sold MetalHeadMike, that was fucking sick too, but obviously that's a one off thing that would be hard to find again.

The thing is, when you're spending crazy $$$ on an amp like that, it seems wild to me that you need one or even 2 (!!! as some people have mentioned) eq pedals with extreme settings for your normal, everyday type of setup. Like, why not just buy a different amp? If it's a small, surgical thing, it makes more sense to me I suppose.
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Yeah for what the GF and Shiva do I prefer the Helios or Telos. For me at least, the 1st Rev Uber is special, but I wouldn't see it as an ideal amp for you still probably. I actually find it to me to be in some ways the most musical, melodic high gain metal amp I've had, but I did find the Rev Blue and Twin Jet to have the fizz you're talking about. I would think still the attack isn't sharp enough or tight enough for most of your stuff, but one of the clips I sent you a while back with my lead ideas was using my Rev 1 Uber and I thought it worked best for that stuff of what I have and also imo one of my favorites for the intro, but wouldn't choose it for the faster riffs onwards
 
braintheory said:
Yeah for what the GF and Shiva do I prefer the Helios or Telos. For me at least, the 1st Rev Uber is special, but I wouldn't see it as an ideal amp for you still probably. I actually find it to me to be in some ways the most musical, melodic high gain metal amp I've had, but I did find the Rev Blue and Twin Jet to have the fizz you're talking about. I would think still the attack isn't sharp enough or tight enough for most of your stuff, but one of the clips I sent you a while back with my lead ideas was using my Rev 1 Uber and I thought it worked best for that stuff of what I have and also imo one of my favorites for the intro, but wouldn't choose it for the faster riffs onwards
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Bogners always seem to sound much better for lead tones than for rhythm tones, at least to my ear ?

I remember thinking the tones you got sounded quite good

I know glp gets good rhythm tones out of boosting his early revision xtc, but I've just never been able to wrangle them out of either of those amps (xtc and Uber)

I guess I have a weird love/hate thing with bogners, so it makes me a bit more understanding about an EQ in the loop - especially considering how weirdly dark or weirdly mid focused some of them are.
 
DanTravis62 said:
Bogners always seem to sound much better for lead tones than for rhythm tones, at least to my ear ?

I remember thinking the tones you got sounded quite good

I know glp gets good rhythm tones out of boosting his early revision xtc, but I've just never been able to wrangle them out of either of those amps (xtc and Uber)

I guess I have a weird love/hate thing with bogners, so it makes me a bit more understanding about an EQ in the loop - especially considering how weirdly dark or weirdly mid focused some of them are.
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My OG Uber needs to be fixed currently with my tech (not working), but will make some updated clips once fixed. At the time of those clips I only owned the amp for a few months and have since gotten much better results with it (I have to set it almost exactly the opposite of most other amps lol and also bias the powertubes quite cold). I love it for many rhythm tones too, but wouldn't choose it for riffs that are really percussive or attack-y in nature. Where I find it can really shine a lot are melodic Euro metal type riffs like for some of the Wintersun or In Flames riffs it's really effective. It would also be one of my top choices for something like Thunderhorse or other Dethklok stuff
 
DanTravis62 said:
If bogner made an amp with the shiva's clean channel, the helios high gain, and a Telos mid gain channel, they would probably put friedman out of business lol.

The Helios and Telos were both good enough to where I was really taken aback, because I was expecting dark tones + weird ass features/eq shit like the uber and xtc. The Bogner Modded Poundcake I sold MetalHeadMike, that was fucking sick too, but obviously that's a one off thing that would be hard to find again.
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I’d actually think just the Helios and Telos alone the way they are now should be enough to accomplish that to Friedman lol (Telos vs Dirty Shirley maybe and Helios vs BE), but maybe it’s just a marketing thing or Bogner didn’t make enough Telos’s and Helios’s. The only thing Friedman’s I think really have over them is more thickness/beef to the sound. I could tell from clips before trying them that these were not at all gonna be the typical Bogner sound. I’d seriously never guess they were Bogner’s if I was blindfolded. Hell if you told me the Helios was a Cameron modded Marshall I wouldn’t be totally shocked (I actually had it side by side with several Cameron modded Marshall’s I had at the time and only sold my Helios for that reason)

I do actually quite like so far this early Friedman Marsha I got recently and actually think I would prefer its cleans to the Shiva’s fwiw, which I wasn’t expecting. Not 100% if it’ll be a long term keeper, but enjoying it
 
I'd rather not over eq an amp externally, but would if I needed to. But the eq in the loop is great for fixing something that could arise in any live situation. So I'd keep two in my gig bag along with two gates and countless cables if I was gigging regularly.
 
rottingcorpse said:
I'd rather not over eq an amp externally, but would if I needed to. But the eq in the loop is great for fixing something that could arise in any live situation. So I'd keep two in my gig bag along with two gates and countless cables if I was gigging regularly.
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^This.. hours and hours of tweaking a great amp in the studio makes things perfect but in live situation, the room dynamics take you out of your vacuum and real life changes everything about the perceived sound. The eq is key here..
 
Pretty interesting viewpoints from both sides and I can see the merit in both schools of though.

@TheGreatGreen laid it out pretty well for the pro EQ in the loop side. That makes total sense of breaking things down to the smallest unit of measure. If an amp has a lot of other things going for it but the tone stack isn't perfect, why would it be bad to put an EQ in the loop.
I can't remember who said it, but it made me chuckle... You put all kinds of other FX in the loop but an EQ is where the line is drawn.

@DanTravis62 and @braintheory have good points against an EQ in the loop. If an amp's tone stack isn't working for you then throwing pedals in the loop probably isn't going to get you there either. There's likely an amp that's much better suited to your needs and time to move on. Amps like the Bogners they were talking about might be a rare exception.

Personally, I'm more in the no EQ in the loop camp. I don't think it should never be done. I'm just one that doesn't like a bunch of stuff in my signal chain. A noise gate and boost out front is about max for me.

To add a little complexity to the topic. How do you feel about amps that have a typical tone stack and can be made with or without a graphic EQ built in; like the Mesa Mark series or VHT Pitbull? Do you think of it as the EQ being part of the amp so it's fine or do you look at it the same as an EQ in the loop?
 
MadAsAHatter said:
Pretty interesting viewpoints from both sides and I can see the merit in both schools of though.

@TheGreatGreen laid it out pretty well for the pro EQ in the loop side. That makes total sense of breaking things down to the smallest unit of measure. If an amp has a lot of other things going for it but the tone stack isn't perfect, why would it be bad to put an EQ in the loop.
I can't remember who said it, but it made me chuckle... You put all kinds of other FX in the loop but an EQ is where the line is drawn.

@DanTravis62 and @braintheory have good points against an EQ in the loop. If an amp's tone stack isn't working for you then throwing pedals in the loop probably isn't going to get you there either. There's likely an amp that's much better suited to your needs and time to move on. Amps like the Bogners they were talking about might be a rare exception.

Personally, I'm more in the no EQ in the loop camp. I don't think it should never be done. I'm just one that doesn't like a bunch of stuff in my signal chain. A noise gate and boost out front is about max for me.

To add a little complexity to the topic. How do you feel about amps that have a typical tone stack and can be made with or without a graphic EQ built in; like the Mesa Mark series or VHT Pitbull? Do you think of it as the EQ being part of the amp so it's fine or do you look at it the same as an EQ in the loop?
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I look at it as part of the amp, but I also don't care for any amp I've ever played that has a GEQ. It's almost like "here, you fix it"
 
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