power conditioner or voltage regulator?

[VH4paul]

Hi guys,
I'm thinking about buying a device to avoid electrical problems in my rig but, since I'm pretty new to this stuff, I don't really know if it would be better to go for a power conditioner or a voltage regulator.

As far as I can see power conditioners (ex. Furman PL-8 C E) can protect from surges and spikes only, while the voltage regulators (ex. Furman P-1400 AR E) can also provide a stable output where the venue power feed is not "good" enough.

What d'you guys suggest?


Oh and besides...what's the VH4 max power consumption?

Thanks a lot!

 

[King Crimson]

The Furman PL-8 C E is a good choice. I have the same one for 4+ years now and it has shown to be a very good investement.

 

[Deleted member 10619]

I have the very same question.

Detailed information about this would be great!

 

[King Crimson]

Detailed information about this would be great!

Maximum Output Current: 10 amps
Line Cord: 3/1.0MM AWG, 2.5M cord w/IEC female to 10A Schuko plug
Pull-out Lights: Two multi-LED, dimmable lamps
BNC Socket w/Switch: Rear rack lamp, 12VAC 500MA maxx (lamp not included)
Operating Voltage: 180 to 274 VAC
Spike Protection Mode: Line to neutral, zero ground leakage
Spike Clamping Voltage: 375 VAC peak @ 3,000 Amps
Response Time: 1 nanosecond
Maximum Surge Current: 6,500 Amps
Noise Attenuation: 10 dB @ 10 kHz, 40 dB @ 100 kHz, 50 dB @ 500 kHz
Dimensions: 482.6mm W x 266.7mm D x 4.45mm H
Weight: 6 kg.
Power Consumption: 12 watts
Safety Listing: CE

 

[Deleted member 10619]

Detailed information about this would be great!

Maximum Output Current: 10 amps
Line Cord: 3/1.0MM AWG, 2.5M cord w/IEC female to 10A Schuko plug
Pull-out Lights: Two multi-LED, dimmable lamps
BNC Socket w/Switch: Rear rack lamp, 12VAC 500MA maxx (lamp not included)
Operating Voltage: 180 to 274 VAC
Spike Protection Mode: Line to neutral, zero ground leakage
Spike Clamping Voltage: 375 VAC peak @ 3,000 Amps
Response Time: 1 nanosecond
Maximum Surge Current: 6,500 Amps
Noise Attenuation: 10 dB @ 10 kHz, 40 dB @ 100 kHz, 50 dB @ 500 kHz
Dimensions: 482.6mm W x 266.7mm D x 4.45mm H
Weight: 6 kg.
Power Consumption: 12 watts
Safety Listing: CE

Smart ass

 

[nevusofota]

First off, go regulator.

Your best bet is to go find a used Furman AR-15 Series II. I bought one last year (new old stock) for about $300.

 

[Ventura]

I'd say if it's just for the amp? Go with the simpler Furman unit. The heavy duty conditioners/regulators are typically used for full on racks where electrical discrepancies can cause a hella problem with pops, hiss, fizz, and even hardware damage - especially when these rigs are adorned with top notch digital processors and the like. Digital shit doesn't dig brown outs (a lack of power in the form of a drop or even a consistently low operating power draw...the duress is considerable), but spikes, believe it or not, can usually be sucked up by the input stage of most gear - not promising anything here, just saying.

But it's usually the lack of juice that causes failures - just FYI. And in the case of a simple amp set up - go with the simpler Furman unit

2 cents,
V.

 

[duesentrieb]

If I had the money or were a pro, I'd go with a regulator.

The conditioner normally just is some caps and an inductance to eat some RFI and such away - and AFAIK Diezel has already a (simple version) of a "conditioner" built in.

On the other hand: Ever played with just 190V (instead of 230)? Well I had to, several times in our former rehearsal place. It just sucks . . . feeding the amp with - say 20% - less than it should be (mains voltage) makes it sound like ass (muddy). To get rid of that, a regulator (built in transformer) bumps up the voltage to what the amp wants to "see".

 

[petereanima]

Save up for a Voltage regulator, in the meantime just use a multiple-outlet-strip with fuse-protection. The cheaper Furmans arent much "more", besides 2-3 caps as mentioned.

 

[nevusofota]

I don't understand, used Furman regulators are not expensive (unless $300 is expensive, thats subjective). Just go that route. As stated earlier get an AR-15 Series II (not in production anymore) or the AR-1215.

 

[VH4paul]

Thanks for the hints

I'd say if it's just for the amp? Go with the simpler Furman unit.

I'm mostly taking this in consideration for my amp but I'd also plug my pedalboard (almost all analog pedals, just a digital delay and a midi pedalboard/looper) and a IEM system. Anyway I'm not using rack gear right now.

I don't understand, used Furman regulators are not expensive (unless $300 is expensive, thats subjective). Just go that route. As stated earlier get an AR-15 Series II (not in production anymore) or the AR-1215.

Well, that would be a great option but round here the street price for a Furman regulator (the P-1400 AR E) is about €1.500 = $1.900, plus it's pretty hard to find used stuff for the Euro standards. I'm not saying it's not worth the money, but for my actual needs it would be a bit too much I guess.

Maybe a cheaper way to achieve the same goal are the "classic" voltage regulators (like this for example) plus a good multi-outlet surge protector (like this); surely not as handy as the Furman rack-mountable ones, but they seem to do the job. Any experience with this type of stuff?

 

[VH4paul]

The Furman PL-8 C E is a good choice. I have the same one for 4+ years now and it has shown to be a very good investement.

...d'you think older models (like the PL8) are good enough compared to the current production?
Thanks a lot!

 

[nevusofota]

Thanks for the hints

I'd say if it's just for the amp? Go with the simpler Furman unit.

I'm mostly taking this in consideration for my amp but I'd also plug my pedalboard (almost all analog pedals, just a digital delay and a midi pedalboard/looper) and a IEM system. Anyway I'm not using rack gear right now.

I don't understand, used Furman regulators are not expensive (unless $300 is expensive, thats subjective). Just go that route. As stated earlier get an AR-15 Series II (not in production anymore) or the AR-1215.

Well, that would be a great option but round here the street price for a Furman regulator (the P-1400 AR E) is about €1.500 = $1.900, plus it's pretty hard to find used stuff for the Euro standards. I'm not saying it's not worth the money, but for my actual needs it would be a bit too much I guess.

Maybe a cheaper way to achieve the same goal are the "classic" voltage regulators (like this for example) plus a good multi-outlet surge protector (like this); surely not as handy as the Furman rack-mountable ones, but they seem to do the job. Any experience with this type of stuff?

What about this? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FURMAN-AR-1215-AR ... 45f7242cdd

 

[VH4paul]

What about this? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FURMAN-AR-1215-AR ... 45f7242cdd

Thanks for the link, but this is the USA 120v version...I need something that works with Euro standards (230v, sockets etc.)

 

[glassjaw7]

The Furman power conditioners are more than just glorified power strips. They have large isolation transformers and better surge protection. My PL-Plus made my rig noticeably quieter, and I was previously using a "high end" Philips strip.

That said, you can't go wrong with a voltage regulator.

 

[nevusofota]

What about this? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FURMAN-AR-1215-AR ... 45f7242cdd

Thanks for the link, but this is the USA 120v version...I need something that works with Euro standards (230v, sockets etc.)

I see what you mean, Furman only makes two regulator models for Euro standards. Given that you own an amp that cost over $4000 I would go with a regulator. I would save up for the Furman P-1400 (like you did for your amp) or, if thats not possible, go with the cheaper regulator in your first link.

 

[Laura]

What about getting a UPS (mainly built for computers)? I have a couple Furman power conditioners and the AR 1215. I picked up a UPS to use with a piece of tube test gear and it was much cheaper than the AR 1215 and seems to work the same. They make rack mount versions also.

 

[steve_k]

Be warned that most of the lower line of Furman stuff is pretty much just a fancy power strip. If you live in an area with voltage dips or spikes, they won't do anything for you. Along with fluctuation is sure to come changes in Hertz. Neither of which are good for amps. I read here from time to time where European owners have trouble with tubes, fuses, etc. Where I live, voltage runs around 127V in the wall but fluctuates as much as from 120-129. This plays hell on a tube amp that is biased warm and for amps with high plate voltage and with tubes that are running at the limit and where screen resistors are near limits.

I kept blowing tubes in a couple of new amps. These amps were putting out PV's about 30 volts higher than published and around 530V. With the run of the mill EL34 tube, that can handle a PV of 450-500V and screen voltage near the same, and preset bias from the USA that was biased on a lower wall voltage, this is a recipe for disaster. I played a couple of outdoor gigs on generator power. These really take some good dips and peaks in voltage based on demand. I tried several different Furman and Monster products but come to realize the $300 range stuff wasn't cutting it.

I stepped up to the $600 AR series stuff and finally got some luck as these do condition and regulate. But, they regulate at input voltage averages. So, I went and bought the biggest combination power transformer / voltage regulator / stabilizer that I can find in the electrical shops. This thing gives me a constant 110V output @ 60 Hz, regardless of wall voltage fluctuations. I plug my racks Furman AR15 into that and now I have clean, steady, stable voltage to everything and never, ever have any problems.

A rule of thumb I found through trial and error, and money, is that you will get about 3-5V DC plate voltage change for every 1 VAC change. So, if you buy an amp that was plugged into 117V in the US for bias and burn in and get it delivered to your house and plug it into 127V wall power, and this amp which put out 500V PV @ 117 now puts out 530V PV, you are getting ready to have some problems. Some tubes such as SED 34's, Ruby BHT's can handle PV's and screen voltages higher than 600V, so they are OK. Try doing this with some JJ's or equivalent and you will be picking shards of glass out of the chassis or replacing a melted fuse holder.

This is my experience with power. A decent voltage transformer/regulator plugged in at the wall and a good Furman AR15 are a combination that will give you years of trouble free service.

Steve

 

[VH4paul]

Be warned that most of the lower line of Furman stuff is pretty much just a fancy power strip. If you live in an area with voltage dips or spikes, they won't do anything for you. Along with fluctuation is sure to come changes in Hertz. Neither of which are good for amps. I read here from time to time where European owners have trouble with tubes, fuses, etc. Where I live, voltage runs around 127V in the wall but fluctuates as much as from 120-129. This plays hell on a tube amp that is biased warm and for amps with high plate voltage and with tubes that are running at the limit and where screen resistors are near limits.

I kept blowing tubes in a couple of new amps. These amps were putting out PV's about 30 volts higher than published and around 530V. With the run of the mill EL34 tube, that can handle a PV of 450-500V and screen voltage near the same, and preset bias from the USA that was biased on a lower wall voltage, this is a recipe for disaster. I played a couple of outdoor gigs on generator power. These really take some good dips and peaks in voltage based on demand. I tried several different Furman and Monster products but come to realize the $300 range stuff wasn't cutting it.

I stepped up to the $600 AR series stuff and finally got some luck as these do condition and regulate. But, they regulate at input voltage averages. So, I went and bought the biggest combination power transformer / voltage regulator / stabilizer that I can find in the electrical shops. This thing gives me a constant 110V output @ 60 Hz, regardless of wall voltage fluctuations. I plug my racks Furman AR15 into that and now I have clean, steady, stable voltage to everything and never, ever have any problems.

A rule of thumb I found through trial and error, and money, is that you will get about 3-5V DC plate voltage change for every 1 VAC change. So, if you buy an amp that was plugged into 117V in the US for bias and burn in and get it delivered to your house and plug it into 127V wall power, and this amp which put out 500V PV @ 117 now puts out 530V PV, you are getting ready to have some problems. Some tubes such as SED 34's, Ruby BHT's can handle PV's and screen voltages higher than 600V, so they are OK. Try doing this with some JJ's or equivalent and you will be picking shards of glass out of the chassis or replacing a melted fuse holder.

This is my experience with power. A decent voltage transformer/regulator plugged in at the wall and a good Furman AR15 are a combination that will give you years of trouble free service.

Steve

Hi Steve,
thanks a lot for sharing your experience.

One thing I don't get: so you're basically using 2 voltage regulators in chain (voltage regulator + Furman AR15 which is also a regulator), am I right?

 

[Anonymous]

Hey Steve... can you help us out with what you use before the Furman? What is it called exactly, and the brand name? Maybe a link or some other similar proven products you can show us would be GREAT!