Ratt Lay it Down tone

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I've heard this before and would love to know the exact process. I mean, if you had a SL turned up loud enough to get gain from the power section, how did he use that signal through the next SL without blowing that one up? I know you could do it now with an attenuator, but the only attenuator I can think of from that era is the Tom Scholz power soak, did he use something like that to get the signal back to input levels? Or did he really just send speaker out from Amp1 into the input of Amp2? I'd definitely be too afraid to try that with one of my amps lol, that sounds like a recipe for blowing stuff up.
So, IMO he'd have a line out installed on his magic Marshall, then a line in on the louder one then you have 100% of the first amp's tone into the power section only on the higher headroom one, which then is turned up enough to take advantage of that amp's power sections distortion. Pretty cool. I also remember guys that would daisy chain Marshall heads, but I'm not totally sure how that exactly works?
 
Maris
Laney Pro Tubes were for endorsement or for live shows for a tour. I had one and gutted it to make a PTP 2204. It was bloated and fizzy with it's " gain mods". That def is not the sound.

The sound is Superlead through Furman PQ3. That simple. No secret sauce, no early Soldano, no special pedals. Straight Marshall /EQ/ Guitar with JB and killer hands and excellent mic placement. That's invasion. Out of the Cellar was a small Fender ( always forget which) through a Marshall for Warren's leads that they loved the sound of.

Most of those RATT albums are Superlead though. Warren had a bunch and they would cycle through them and always end up on the same one or two which they'd have Crosby play through as well. Soldano's hit around Reach for the Sky and Detonator. Also fine tones. Warren just had great tone period. Love his playing style.

Today, it's a mix of SLO or Diezel I believe
He was still using Marshalls for Reach and Detoator . I’m assuming Robbin Crosby was too, but for the most part he was checked out at that time , who knows how much he actually recorded on those albums
 
So, IMO he'd have a line out installed on his magic Marshall, then a line in on the louder one then you have 100% of the first amp's tone into the power section only on the higher headroom one, which then is turned up enough to take advantage of that amp's power sections distortion. Pretty cool. I also remember guys that would daisy chain Marshall heads, but I'm not totally sure how that exactly works?

Yeah that makes sense, except then you wouldn't be getting any power amp gain from the first amp, since the line out would be after the preamp. Idk, I guess I'm just lost on the process. If it's just "preamp out -> power amp in" then that's cool but the internet hearsay is that it wasn't that simple, but then no one can elaborate on the exact details. I guess Warren and whoever was physically in the studio are the only people who could set the record straight but I'm sure they either don't want to or legitimately don't remember at this point
 
Yeah that makes sense, except then you wouldn't be getting any power amp gain from the first amp, since the line out would be after the preamp. Idk, I guess I'm just lost on the process. If it's just "preamp out -> power amp in" then that's cool but the internet hearsay is that it wasn't that simple, but then no one can elaborate on the exact details. I guess Warren and whoever was physically in the studio are the only people who could set the record straight but I'm sure they either don't want to or legitimately don't remember at this point
No, you would get the total sound of the first amp with a legit line out....they are taken off a speaker tap, to my knowledge anyway. I first used a line out on my first C+, a 60w to run into the S400 power amp. It was the full amp sound...vs when I used just the send of the loop, which is just the preamp tone. If you run into the return of a loop, which is the same as a single line in, then it's just the power section of the second amp.
 
No, you would get the total sound of the first amp with a legit line out....they are taken off a speaker tap, to my knowledge anyway. I first used a line out on my first C+, a 60w to run into the S400 power amp. It was the full amp sound...vs when I used just the send of the loop, which is just the preamp tone. If you run into the return of a loop, which is the same as a single line in, then it's just the power section of the second amp.
Did you have to have the C+ plugged into a cab or load as well when doing this?
 
Warren used his favorite early 70s Superlead for most of the Rhythm tracks of the first 3 albums. This amp was also the one Lynch tried to ‘borrow’ by lowering it out the bathroom window of Warrens house, when he was visiting. He also used a Fender Champ for the lead tones on Out of the Cellar. The Laney stuff was used on the road but not in the studio.
The Fender amp in question was a Rivera era '80s Fender Super Champ combo amp, not a Fender Champ.
 
Warren did not use a Fender Champ on some of the Out of the Cellar solos. He used an early 80's Fender Super Champ. Huge difference. Paul Rivera designed the Super Champ and it was a gainy little beast. This is what a Super Champ sounded like with George Lynch warming up on one backstage back in that time frame. You can clearly see the Super Champ on the floor when Lynch is playing. And the newer Fender Super Champ is nothing at all like the original Super Champs:

 
. Out of the Cellar was a small Fender ( always forget which) through a Marshall for Warren's leads that they loved the sound of.
Interesting bit!

I recently had a similar epiphany, when I was using multiple 'big glass/big iron' tube heads to lay down some rhythm tracks through a Torpedo Live and for shits n' giggles I tried my little Engl Ironball (2x EL84. but with quite a thick low-end) for some leads and I actually preferred the 'small' amp for the lead tones too.
Something about a certain level of congestion and/or saturation, that seems to work better purely for leads.

Regarding those cabs from Warren; could it be the infamous metal cap G12/100's? Those cone covers seem to have some resemblance there.
 
Maris

He was still using Marshalls for Reach and Detoator . I’m assuming Robbin Crosby was too, but for the most part he was checked out at that time , who knows how much he actually recorded on those albums
Robbin didn't play much on Detonator, but you can hear him on the Reach for the Sky album for sure. His rhythm tracks are on the left side on the whole record, (He only played one solo on Reach though -- I Want a Woman).

The guitar tone on Lay It Down and the rest of Invasion... I think it sounds great, but I actually prefer the darker/warmer tones from Dancing Undercover. I just wish the guitars were pushed more up front in the mix for that record.
 
Warren did not use a Fender Champ on some of the Out of the Cellar solos. He used an early 80's Fender Super Champ. Huge difference. Paul Rivera designed the Super Champ and it was a gainy little beast. This is what a Super Champ sounded like with George Lynch warming up on one backstage back in that time frame. You can clearly see the Super Champ on the floor when Lynch is playing. And the newer Fender Super Champ is nothing at all like the original Super Champs:



Awesome, nasty little amp that thing is. I can def hear how that would work through the big cabs for those Out of the Cellar leads. They should reissue that amp.
 
When I was first starting out, Lay It Down was the #1 song in my mind of what I wanted to sound like. Just killer tone. I know it sounds counter-intuitive but it's one of the reasons the first Marshall I ever bought was a TSL, with the built in reverb and bass rolled way down, I thought (and still think) it does a damn good Ratt impression.

From what I've read, the Laney's were never used on recordings, and even live they were just backups at best. I have had both an 8-knob AOR and the 6-knob Pro-Tube and unmodded at least, there's no Ratt tones in them to my ear. They have a distinctly fuzzy gain tone especially on low palm mutes - like the D's in Lay It Down - that would make them easy to identify. Bass heavy, or fuzzy/loose bass, are certainly not terms I'd ever use to describe Ratt's sound.

The usual story is that there was one late 60's Superlead that just had a crapload of gain, but was really quiet. Then there was a metal face super lead with less gain but louder. I've heard people say they were both unmodded, but then the next sentence is that they ran the 60's SL preamp into the 70's SL power amp. These amps didn't have effects loops or line outs so at least *something* had to have been modded along the line, I mean, there's no way they ran a speaker output into the next amp's input. Right?

Anyway, as usual there's a bit of mysticism around it but here's what I think, and to be clear I have no insider info so this is just speculation: I think it was a 70s Super Lead modded with Zener's which is what made it quiet, and he turned the bass knob either completely off, or nearly off. Possibly boosted with something from the time, like a DOD250, Parametric EQ in front, Space Echo in front above unity gain, or a combination of them. It sounds absolutely sick recorded, but kind of meh "in the room," which is why if you listen to videos of them playing live around that time, it's good sounding but it's not quite the same ultra-sharp tone from the record. Remember that intro has a high pass reverb sound on it which is really distinct, plus delay, and double/stereo tracked.

As for speakers, I really have no idea, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear it was 60s greenbacks or blackbacks to further enhance the brightness, as opposed to something else from the time like a G12-65 or G12-80... but there's definitely a part of me wondering if he used something less normal, like Jensens, Fanes, Altec, McKenzie, or EV's. Kinda like how we have a bunch of cool speakers to choose from these days like Scumback, WGS, etc, there are quite a few speakers from that 70s/80s era that don't come up in conversation much anymore, but they definitely got used on stuff.

Good post, I really think a lot of the info is out there in plain sight. Either interviews or pics. Also agreed that amazing album tones are sometimes lack luster in the room or sound too anemic. Zeners is probably not a bad call. Or slaving. He mentions running the bass down low so that would be right to your point. Pedal wise, I believe some TS or SD-1's made it on stage along with other staples early on and more recently, I think Warren still sets his SLO or Diezel's to a good crunch and then hits them with a King of Tone / Prince of Tone. As always though, studio magic is important here. The chain, preamps, mic placement, effects and just fantastic playing. Warren is a damn fine player.
 
These amps didn't have effects loops or line outs so at least *something* had to have been modded along the line, I mean, there's no way they ran a speaker output into the next amp's input. Right?
You can daisy chain inputs on 4 hole fenders and marshalls. You can also send a speaker out to the input of another amp, as long as you have a cab hooked up to the other speaker out. Not recommended, but doable.
 
If it's as simple as slaving a superlead, it should be easy to recreate. Same as if it's just a couple of zeners on a superlead...
I love lay it down. Tempted to try these things

You're right about the recording equipment playing a big factor. But the harmonic content of the tone shouldnt change much
 
Robbin didn't play much on Detonator, but you can hear him on the Reach for the Sky album for sure. His rhythm tracks are on the left side on the whole record, (He only played one solo on Reach though -- I Want a Woman).

The guitar tone on Lay It Down and the rest of Invasion... I think it sounds great, but I actually prefer the darker/warmer tones from Dancing Undercover. I just wish the guitars were pushed more up front in the mix for that record
That tone they got on Reach For The Sky is on my list of favorites . I prefer the songs on OOTC and Invasion but that tone on Reach For The Sky is rippin’
 
You can also send a speaker out to the input of another amp, as long as you have a cab hooked up to the other speaker out. Not recommended, but doable.
What??? Seems like asking for trouble.
 
Found this interview .....
“The last thing I used that amp on was on Detonator, “Nobody Rides for Free.”
He slaved his fav 70s SL into another one that had higher headroom...and doing that can also increase the gain because you are using the gain from BOTH Marshall power

…and that is why I bought a Marshall. Every recorded tone I seem to like was some sort of
Marshall Plexi or modded one.

Before I discovered Warren used a Marshall on Nobody, I would’ve sworn up and down it was an SLO.
 
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