Scorpions Blackout- what do you hear?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Kapo_Polenton
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Moshaholic":7gmre0xo said:
Deanmachine":7gmre0xo said:
I hear my first concert in 1982 the scorpions and iron maiden it was killer saw them next at the US festival they killed it at both shows ! Yes I'm old...

No BS...

One of my friends back then had parents that would not let him go to the "US" festival...

So he told them he was going camping that weekend instead with friends.

But you guessed it he lied to them went to the US festival and saw Scorpions, Iron Maiden, Triumph, Quite Riot, etc...

Sure enough he was right up in front of the stage during scorpions or Van Halen and there were photographers from all over taking pictures and covering the event.

Anyway clear shots of his "front row mug" in the crowed ended up in large photo and cover story of the of the concert in the LA Times...

His mom saw it and totally identified him from the picture he got busted big time...

I saw the picture too and there was no getting out of it... grounded!!! :lol: :LOL: :lol: :LOL: :lol: :LOL:

LoL! :lol: :LOL: So true! I remember things like that happening to a few friends of mine all of the time when certain concerts were coming to town. Great story!

:rock:
 
You are so right about those tones, Kapo. Jabs is so underrated...great tone with monster riffs. Great point about the fills in the verses. His playing on World Wide Live is amazing.
 
Totally right about the circle jerk over the plexi tone and early 800 tone. I am obsessed with it lately and that is why all I want to do is plug straight in and work for the tone. Of course a lil push here or there is helpful but trying not to use overdrives. The louder you crank the amp the less I feel the overdrive colors the tone so that is another little thing to consider. Nobody really cranks their amp anymore. They are technically loud at 4 and have tons of gain so there is more preamp colour and the amp stays tight. These old marshals really fill out and sound full once you hit 6 and beyond on the MV. There is loud and then there is old school loud. The sweet spot on mine is MV at 7-8 and old damp at 7. Presence and treble seem to do far less here but who cares. Amp stays tight too.


As a side note, anybody know which new wah can approximate the way shenmer used his for the mid boost? I have a cry baby but it is either too bassy or too cocked. There doesn't seem to be a sweet spot.
 
Kapo_Polenton":25ny6js9 said:
As a side note, anybody know which new wah can approximate the way shenmer used his for the mid boost? I have a cry baby but it is either too bassy or too cocked. There doesn't seem to be a sweet spot.

What you want to do is set the wah freq where you want it first. Once you do that, then adjust the amps tone controls around that.
 
it didn't strike me as to how insane MJ is until i saw him live,3rd row at the garden
hanging off the amp racks ,doing all those fills that you take for granted on the lps
basically screaming and ripping

i think rudy once said that MJ is the perfect hybrid of EVH and brother Michael
i feel that lovedrive/animal mag and blackout had an overall very brown sound

below is a quote from the metro amp forum-someone at another forum asked MJ about his gear .....and he answered!

Hi Robin,

i used a Marhall JMP 50w, no Master Volume.

With "transformer killers" I probably meant the inconsistant voltage in the US, which varies from 90 volts to 125 volts and is tough for a European Amp (230 volts) operated by a step down transformer.


Cheers,

Matthias
 
Blackout is a poster child for the 2" tape / big mixer sound. The intersecting of the peaks of analog studio technology and modern hard rock band sound.
 
Nice, Blackout was one of the first songs I learned! Matthias in the house!!!
 
Not to veer to off topic but I found a lot of new info recently about tape....its really funny how people[myself included] perceive tape to be a great thing! [it is]
But beyond nostalgia and making guys all play in the room at the same time to get great performances and or not cut and pasting /pug ins/endless pro tools digital hum-jobs it's a fucking pain in the ass and archaic as hell.
[finding good tape stock,not rewinding it too much during the session as it degrades the tape,[transfer that shit to the puter asap] keeping the machine aligned and correctly cleaned,demagged,finding parts for the machine,a good tech to keep the machine running etc etc]
I have an 8 track half inch that I will never part with,have recorded on 16 track one inch and 24 track 2 inch
as time goes on,technology has really ripped open what the exact effect tape adds and let me tell ya....in some cases it ain't pretty!
Aside from the awesome octave harmonic content that we all love...tape adds a lot of crap that is barely audible/audible.
I think you teach geek fairy dust mojo guys will find this hella interesting
 
When did you come up with the idea of the Plangent Process?

In the early '80s I was working in New York at Howard Schwartz Recording. Howie wanted to prove that Scotch 250 was the best tape, because it's what he was using; everybody else was using [Ampex] 456. He bought one of the first Hewlett Packard digital frequency synthesizers, which put out a perfect sine wave without drift. He also purchased a very early General Radio spectrum analyzer. I was assigned to sit there and prove that 250 was the best tape. I, being an idiot and not understanding business and politics, proved to him that actually AGFA 468 was the best tape,which wasn't what he had in mind. I learned a lot from the experience! [laughing] But what started this all back then was that I was laying down a 10 kHz tone and then looking at it off tape, seeing how much level the tapes could handle and so on. I noticed that the digital frequency synthesizer would put down a perfect spike in input mode, but in repro off the tape it looked like a pine tree! I asked the tech guys,"What is that? "They said, "That's the wow and flutter." They showed me that if you've got sidebands of 60 Hz on either side of 10 kHz, then you've got a 60 Hz flutter. I was scrubbing the tape very slowly at various points, and I'd hear this whistling noise. I asked, "What is that?" They said, "That's the bias." Because at 30 ips, a 100 kHz bias tone, if you scrub it slow enough, you'll hear it. Many of us have heard this when the tape comes up to speed. I was hearing the bias and that it had a pitch. Meanwhile, I was seeing that the machine was much more messy in the time domain than the digital frequency synthesizer was. I questioned, "Why hasn't anybody used the bias to servo-lock the machine?" Older tapes were recorded with a bias oscillator that was way more stable than the transport was. When you get into the quartz oscillators that you see in the MCI, Studers and later machines, it's pretty awesome how stable they were but how much worse the transport was. I don't think that people realize how much residual wow and flutter we are sensitive to. We're just used to it.

And now you can take that bias and virtually "lock" the audio, post tape.

Yup. It's not easy to do, and the bias tone has a very low signal-to-noise ratio. I took what I'd learned about FM theory from David Smith, who at the time was chief tech for Phil Ramone. David had gotten his Masters in FM theory from RPI [Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute]. Then I went and talked to all the guys that have been in the tape business for many, many years — Dale Manquen [3M/Flying Faders/P&G], John French [JRF Magnetic Sciences], Greg Orton [Ampex, Flux Magnetics], Mike Spitz [Ampex/ATR Services] — and I said to these guys, "What would you have done in 1975 when digital was starting to come in? What if you would have had the opportunity between 1975 and today to improve on the tape playback system? What would the bean-counters not let you build?" So they taught me as much as I could comprehend, and a lot I couldn't. These guys are the analog ninjas! [After that research] I hired a team of great prototypers, and we went ahead and built it with a basic electronic design from David. When they first assembled it, we were very excited. We were all together in a hotel conference room. I had an [Ampex] ATR-102 that had been rebuilt by Mike Spitz,so I knew that it was stable, and I had a tape that was made by MRL that had a 70 kHz bias on it. I stuck a pencil in the machine to make the tape speed go all over the place. My buddy, Dr. Patrick Wolfe, who taught at Cambridge University, UK, [he wrote the math and coded the software] loaded the audio transfer in his laptop. About a minute and a half later, he had ten seconds for us to listen to and it was perfect. It worked on the first try!

So the software had been written?

I had the software written simultaneously to the hardware being manufactured — I took a lot of risks. I thought this would work, so I spent a bunch of bucks on having the preamp made and the software developed. I went out on a limb. Flux Magnetics made the heads; Greg wasn't sure whether they'd work and I told him to go ahead and build one and bill it anyway.

Is there a separate head that picks up the bias?

No, it's all one head. It's a custom single head with a very wideband quiet preamp — built by engineer John Chester — and it's a great playback system.

Does it use a crossover and record on to two separate audio and bias tone tracks?

Yeah, we filter it out separately. Dan Lavry [Lavry Engineering] consulted on the complicated filters. The audio is minimal and transparent. We did everything that we possibly could to get the best possible sound. This is not me — this is the A-team. The DSP [digital signal processing] was written very carefully. It's non real-time. This is not something that you can do with a pitch-shifter, and it's also not something that you can do by analyzing the musical material. You don't know what's vibrato or not. We're working to hundredths of a percent, at 5,000 or 6,000 parts per second, and we can knock out everything the machines did. We see 120, 220, and 440 Hz artifacts all the time — people don't realize how much that's actually contributing to the sound. You also get "scrape flutter." The metal-to-metal contact on the head creates a violin bow effect with the open parts of the tape; the tape "sings" at 3 kHz. And that's modulating all of the music, all the time. Generation loss now appears quite clearly to have been a result of the transport mechanism more than any other thing.

Really?

Yeah, the fast flutter clouds everything. Look, everybody loves the analog sound, especially us, but nobody wants the wow and flutter part of it. The thing that's really been the hardest sell is that obviously you can use Plangent Processes for triage, for stuff that's stretched or where the machine is in trouble; but listen to what it does on a well-made, hi-fi recording from the '60s or the '70s, in terms of clearing out all the debris that was caused by the transport. That was the surprise. Listen to how much better and fresher the imaging is, how much more depth there is, and how solid it feels.One of the more famous producers in the world, known for his EMT plates and chambers, listened to our work and said, "My reverb tails are longer, and that's what it sounded like in the control room. I've never heard that off tape." Something that I want to be really clear about is that we're not "fixing" their work. There have unfortunately been some misapprehensions about our claims with that.We didn't mix the damn record! They mixed the record, and it sounds awesome, but the mixdown machine hurt them a little bit. If we can get that hurt out of there, it's going to sound closer to the console and more like what the original intent was. If Elliot Scheiner, Jimmy Iovine, or any of these wonderful producers are sitting at the board and hearing something and the machine is changing it slightly, we can remove that filter; that's for the better.

Absolutely.

We want to hear what the mixer heard, what he did, and what he tried like hell to get to us when the best transfer mechanism that was possible at the time was tape.

You worked on the Grateful Dead's Europe '72: The Complete Recordings set a couple of years ago, right?

Yeah, that stuff was awesome. That was 85 reels of 16- track, 2-inch tape. They recorded the entire tour on an [Ampex] MM 1000 — they took a generator over to Europe, I guess. They had to have the Hammond at 60 Hz, and they ran the Hammond and the multitrack off the same power source.

What type of issues were on those tapes that required your process?

The machine was one of the early AC motor servo machines, if I recall correctly, and since the synchronous motor drive was based on 60Hz it did show a lot of 120, 240, and 480 Hz flutter. I'm not sure whether that's just because it was running off a generator, or whether it's just the nature of the beast; but in theory they should hold pitch pretty good. They used strobe tuners onstage to get A 440; but, even though they used them, you can see that the machine would climb from one end of the reel to the other by about 50 or 70 cents. But it was certainly audible, and it changed the energy. The middle of the reel was usually where the tape machine was best, with equal weight on both the supply platter and the take-up platter. When mixer Jeffrey Norman got back the "plangented" versions, he was very happy with the results. Then [David] Glasser did an awesome job of mastering the stuff [at Airshow Mastering]. It was literally a ton of tape to work on, and it took about six to eight months. We would transfer and transfer, and Jeffrey would mix and mix, and Dave would master and master. We were obviously taking a fair amount of time to get the results right, so we caught up with them. We started off about ten weeks ahead of Jeffrey and ended up about a week ahead of him.

I know it's a process, more than just hardware or software. But how many of these setups exist right now?

About seven or eight of them, at this point. We have three, Chace Audio has some and so does Airshow Mastering in Boulder, Colorado. Steve Rosenthal [Tape Op #66] at The Magic Shop uses one; he helped us win a Grammy when he produced a restoration of a Woody Guthrie wire recording. We tend to be called on a per-job basis. John Chester went to London and did a couple of mag transfers for Charlie is My Darling; the Rolling Stones documentary film from 1965 that is just awesome. Steve Rosenthal, who mixed the music for the picture, called me up and said, "You know, you could probably give the producers [Robin and Jody Klein] a hand with this one scene we can't fix." Turns out to be a hotel room where Keith [Richards] and Mick [Jagger] were writing "Sitting On a Fence" and it was pretty rugged sounding. We were able to recover enough bias off of the mag film that we were able to successfully de-wow and de-flutter it, and it's really moving. It's a great documentary, released in November by ABKCO. We've also done a big project recently with Bob Ludwig on a major artists' catalog; you should be hearing about it real soon.

I know you've done other film restoration work too.

We did some very interesting, very good fixes. The acetate films break down very badly due to vinegar syndrome, and they don't play well [it releases water and acetic acid over time]. Chace Audio is using a whole bunch of tricks to try to maximize the head contact and make sure that the film's pulling as clean as it can, but it still moves around. There are a couple of places in South Pacific where it almost jammed to a halt! But it came out fine. We also did some stuff that had no problems, like Close Encounters of the Third Kind — that was a pristine element. We did West Side Story off the original 6-track mags, and the sound is crazy good. 35 mm is a pretty good medium to begin with, but one of the things that you can hear in every 35 mm film playback is a 96 Hz flutter that's really high. It's 24 frames per second, times four perforations per frame.

That makes sense.

So you get a very pronounced 96 Hz flutter, and it's not sinusoidal. It's pretty square, because of the way that the sprocketing is pulling it and smacking the film. So you've got 96, plus a bunch of harmonics, and that does create intermodulation distortion [IM]. Again, people aren't used to thinking of the transport as the IM source, but IM is nasty. You've got an A 440 flute, and you've got 536 and 344 Hz flutter — you get those sidebands going on fairly hefty and they're not part of the music. They're not supposed to be there, but they're on everything! Our process is good for ambiences. We did a scene in The Agony and the Ecstasy, a Rex Harrison/Charlton Heston moment, where the Pope yells at Michelangelo and says, "Silence," and you hear this great echo. There's a guy on the fishpole boom, and you can actually hear the fish pole move because he's near a boundary. So you hear a little bit of flange as he moves and it pans from Charlton Heston, but the echo that's on it is natural, and it just sounds fabulous. Rang forever, like the guys who mixed it had meant it to.

Are you staying pretty busy dealing with all of these projects?

Not as busy as we'd like to be. It's funny, the film guys get it. The record biz? Not so much. We're not cheap, and we're trying to figure out ways to minimize the cost onit; but one of the things that has to happen is that our customers need the hardware package. There's a lot of questions like, "Why can't I do this by pressing play on my ATR-102? Why can't I do this myself? Why isn't it a plug-in?" Well, you certainly can get the capture with our hardware package. And the audio is outstanding, thanks to John and sadly David, posthumously. We do merchandise the head and preamp system for the transfer and capture part of it; but the de-wow/de-flutter part of it is proprietary at the moment, partly because it's not easy to do. I don't want to be on the phone all the time explaining to guys about FM theory!

What do you see for the future with Plangent Processes?

I'm a little bit ambivalent these days about how mono focused the industry seems to be on "vintage" — as if the beauty were in the flaws of the equipment of earlier days, when engineers and designers had to live with a certain amount of distortion as they conveyed the art to the listener. I'm saying that it is possible to remove some of that distortion now. I'm not talking about de-hissing, where you lose some of the ambience; we have found a way to remove a significant amount of distortion from every tape ever made, with no harm. While the fad, ironically, is to add "vintage" distortion with a convolution filter plug — in to make it sound nostalgic. The focus of a lot of people with good intentions is so "respectful" toward the older material that they emulate the older recordings, and so they're finding ways to emulate the older tape recorders. I'm going the opposite direction, which is sort of swimming upstream. We believe the music was meant to shine as clearly as possible, without the machines getting in the way. And that's what's timeless. Not the "vintage" aspect of it. The Bill Putnams and the Phil Ramones weren't making antiques, after all.

!!!
that last line says a lot!
 
more!

Plangent Processes:

I guess everybody by now probably knows how our process works — it's a wide-band head, wide-band preamp, custom-made stuff that we're more than happy to sell, which tracks the bias on the tape, which is 150,000 cycles per second. Usually it was recorded with an oscillator that is way more stable than the transport was. When you get into the quartz oscillators that you see in the MCI, Studer, and later decks, it's pretty awesome how stable they are and how much worse the transport is. I don't think that people realized how much residual wow we were sensitive to. You go back and listen to these things, and it's actually pretty remarkable when one of them has been de-wowed/de-fluttered how much was actually there that we were willing to accept, and how much that we thought was inaudible. The history of audio is filled with things that were thought to be inaudible.


Early Digital Audio:

I remember Jim Keltner told me a great story about how he didn't like the way that the cymbals sounded, but the groove was tighter. I was like, "How could you assert that the groove was tighter in the difference between analog and digital?" Of course, he's listening in the time domain, while most of us are listening in the frequency/pitch domain. We went back and looked at the timing differentials of these machines, and they're actually throwing a tenth of a percent wow, which is considered to be a little bit high, but acceptable for most of the time and most of what these things were doing. Whether that was the spec or not, that was what most of these things were achieving. I did the math to see if a tenth of a percent of wow at a particular slow speed would drift that much, and it does. Keltner was absolutely right. It wasn't surprising that a lot of guys were hearing artifacts in different ways.

Transport Problems:

The thing that's really been the hardest sell is that you can use our process for triage — for stuff that's stretched or where the machine is in trouble — but listen to what it does on a well-made, hi-fi recording from the '60s or the '70s in terms of clearing out all the debris that was caused by the transport. Listen to how much better and fresher the imaging is, how much more depth there is. One of the things that we heard from one of the more famous producers in the world was, "My reverb tails are longer, and that's what it sounded like in the control room. I've never heard that off tape."

Reframing History:

It's not because we're changing the work or we claim that we're better than Bill Putnam. There are millions of guys out here that are way smarter than I am. But we did find one stupid pet trick that could be done that really does make a lot of difference! The thing that it does is that it does unmoor the historicity of it, if you will. Not the historic nature, because the historic nature is in the performance, but the antiqueness of it. If I want to hear a Sinatra playback, I want to hear Sinatra. I don't think that Rosemary Clooney in 1956 when she sang the stuff that she did, some of which sounds like it's got some fairly decent honk on it, is going to say, "Wait a minute, that doesn't sound like my voice because it doesn't have honk on it." They were killing themselves trying to make the transfer function as flat and as clear as possible.
 
Way to go controlled _voltage.. talk about a thread killer lol ;) So essentially what you are saying is that analogue/tape deficiency is actually a strength where the ear is concerned. This compared with digital distortion (where levels are bumped way too high nowadays) is what helps give that signature warm but cutting sound.

As for the tone itself, I had a chance to run at good volume through RI greenbacks and there it is, not that hard a tone to get. I am less interested in frying tubes on a variac though and I figure I can use a kokoboost clean boost side in favour of the colour or drive the echoplex preamp adds to the tone for leads. I have listened to all the echoplex in a box pedals demo'ed and to me they just sound like a clean boost with the badgerplex trilogy being the most versatile as you can EQ it somewhat.
 
controlled_voltage":19vebk42 said:
i
below is a quote from the metro amp forum-someone at another forum asked MJ about his gear .....and he answered!

Hi Robin,

i used a Marhall JMP 50w, no Master Volume.

Must have pretty damn loud to get that much gain on a NMV 1987 head. I'm betting there was some sauce.
 
Moshaholic":38o6ryqk said:
Deanmachine":38o6ryqk said:
I hear my first concert in 1982 the scorpions and iron maiden it was killer saw them next at the US festival they killed it at both shows ! Yes I'm old...

No BS...

One of my friends back then had parents that would not let him go to the "US" festival...

So he told them he was going camping that weekend instead with friends.

But you guessed it he lied to them went to the US festival and saw Scorpions, Iron Maiden, Triumph, Quite Riot, etc...

Sure enough he was right up in front of the stage during scorpions or Van Halen and there were photographers from all over taking pictures and covering the event.

Anyway clear shots of his "front row mug" in the crowed ended up in large photo and cover story of the of the concert in the LA Times...

His mom saw it and totally identified him from the picture he got busted big time...

I saw the picture too and there was no getting out of it... grounded!!! :lol: :LOL: :lol: :LOL: :lol: :LOL:

EXCELLENT STORY!!!

I was invited to go to the US Festival and got a great big NO!
I was in the 7th grade and my classmate was going with her oldest brother and some friends. I was soooooo upset.
I should have taken a shot like your friend did.

This story made my morning!
 
thenine":ef3ixivq said:
controlled_voltage":ef3ixivq said:
i
below is a quote from the metro amp forum-someone at another forum asked MJ about his gear .....and he answered!

Hi Robin,

i used a Marhall JMP 50w, no Master Volume.

Must have pretty damn loud to get that much gain on a NMV 1987 head. I'm betting there was some sauce.
Not really. Here's mine straight in and with a slight boost from a Cusack Screamer.

 
Once again,you get the best sound of that Germino that I have ever heard!
 
chris lykins":13wjr92c said:
Once again,you get the best sound of that Germino that I have ever heard!
I wish I had some secret to share. :lol: :LOL:
I think allot of people never try going back to the basics.
 
LP Freak":2kvvu9sl said:
thenine":2kvvu9sl said:
controlled_voltage":2kvvu9sl said:
i
below is a quote from the metro amp forum-someone at another forum asked MJ about his gear .....and he answered!

Hi Robin,

i used a Marhall JMP 50w, no Master Volume.

Must have pretty damn loud to get that much gain on a NMV 1987 head. I'm betting there was some sauce.
Not really. Here's mine straight in and with a slight boost from a Cusack Screamer.

But there's your sauce right?? Cusack! Sounds great!
 
Blackout is a great album. Everything about it. The lead playing is exceptional. At the time, I was heavely invested in the Priest/Maiden camp but looking at it now, Blackout was right up there.
 
LP Freak":vec6mlbm said:
thenine":vec6mlbm said:
controlled_voltage":vec6mlbm said:
i
below is a quote from the metro amp forum-someone at another forum asked MJ about his gear .....and he answered!

Hi Robin,

i used a Marhall JMP 50w, no Master Volume.

Must have pretty damn loud to get that much gain on a NMV 1987 head. I'm betting there was some sauce.
Not really. Here's mine straight in and with a slight boost from a Cusack Screamer.


Sounds good but not the sound I am hearing on the album.. MV at 4 sounds good, really good actually, but I find you haven't really involved the power amp side as much yet and when you add a pedal, you get a bit more fizz and coloration from the pedal because it accentuates the preamp more. I find hitting the MV at 6 or 7 all of a sudden you get this fatness and fullness which takes the razor edge off the amp. Then you back down on the preamp to tighten the amp up some. With a hot bucker, that's the sound I hear on the album. There is some sauce on the leads though, be it an echoplex providing a slight boost overall (which Jabs had mentioned he did with the early marshalls) or an EQ bump of sometype for more sustain. That said, no shame in the tone you got here, I like it for the mid to later 80's boosted hair scene. Both great sounds. Sounds like the Germino has more gain on tap than a standard 2204. Is that my imagination? Dig it.
 
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