dvoricci
Member
I had an avenger for a few months. Got it for $850. Couldn’t get used to the low end, and it was very dark. I’d like to spend more time with the SLO, I’ve only played one at reasonable volume at a GC years ago.
D
Detroit1973
Well-known member
dvoricci":1d1ladwu said:
I kinda felt the same way until i tried mine with a Maxon OD-9 as a clean boost. It sounded so good without it, i use EMG's so there is already a bit of boost from the pickups & when i added the Maxon OD-9, It Crushes!!!
T
tech21man
New member
This thread is what I bump onto when I search for avenger info.
I have one, I traced it somewhat because there is a lot of confussion about it vs the SLO etc.
It's not in any way "identical", point by point to the lead channel of the SLO, however this doesn't really mean much. In the same logic, nor is the rectifier or EVH 5153 yet they all share something and duesentrieb already described it to be honest.
For me, it's the relationship between the cold clipping 3rd stage and the resistor choices of the 4th stage after it.
There is a picture in the previous page. In every one of those amps, the 3rd stage has that big ass 39K resistor (less on the EVH 50 watt, more marshally and better harmonics but still super large by amp standards) and then that classical 220K/330K voltage divider to the 4th stage which every amp maker from mesa to framus blatanly ripped off lol. KSR as well I think? Anyway. Avengers have from 1,8K bypassed or 2,2K unbypassed on the cathode and always a 100K on the plate. People that traced one or two had these values drawn out.
The SLO forth stage has 1,8K bypassed with 220K. And it has more clipping vs the avenger. Changing those gives more clipping if you want it. You can check the other amp makers choices as well which is usually 220K/1,8K with bypass or partial bypass for the rectifier etc.
So the lower "gain" is the avenger out of all them. Personally I see it to be the case, through the same cab vs the rectifier I have. It is higher gain than my JCM 800 and lower than the early rectifier that I have. That one has 250K gain pots as well vs the 1M later one that mesa used I think...
But the real catch for the avenger is its layout. First of all no channel switching. No vactrols. No clean channel bleed vs the SLO. If those matter to you, you can set the clean channel volume to zero or change the vactrol to eliminate the bleed. Some people find differences others think it's not really important.
I don't agree about the parallel master volume pots making a difference in the SLO as to what the tonestack sees as a load. First and foremost, where the pots are set is what the load is. So it's variable all the time. No bleed there as well...
Taking this out of account, you should notice that an avenger has always 4 12ax7s and one is the PI. So there are 3 available to the preamp.
To complete the lead channel circuit of the SLO lead channel you need one more. So it's not an exact copy and it's not about the clean/crunch channel missing. That one only requires half a triode.
So something had to go for them to save a tube (and check out how the avenger splits into two versions).
The original hot rod 50 or avenger 50 has no loop.
Count the stages.
First input stage, second stage 1st triode.
Third cold clipper to fourth stage, 2nd triode.
After that, you have the cathode follower which requires half a triode attached to the fourth stage and drives the tonestack. That is half a triode of the 3rd and final preamp stage before the PI.
So in those amps, which resemble the vintage mode on the mesa rectifier as a topology, or "hot rodded JCM 800 style) a bit, you have half a triode doing nothing. This is a fact.
On the 50 watt version the first R/C network after the .22n coupling cap is .470p/1M so it cuts off at 370 hz more or less. That means that version is tighter. Maybe it's because it's 50 watts, who knows they didn't want to make it bassier. People, along with the smaller power amp giving the goods earlier along with the aforementioned preamp with half a tube doing nothing, prefer it. Some prefer it to the SLO.
My amp is a hot rod avenger 100, later model somewhat.
That one differs.
First R/C network is 1n/1M. Cut off is 120? hz? or 135. "Half" hz down (370 divided by 2) vs the 50 watt version (can't remember exact number) and is identical to the SLO lead which uses .02u/475K R/C to achieve the same cutoff. It doesn't matter what resistor values you use in the interstage coupling path to achieve the same cutoff but some may argue that smaller resistors make for a more immediate amp. Who knows. Maybe it is why he uses that on the SLO or he could order in bulk for the other amps and bring the cost down with different values. But the cutoff is the same.
Hey, guys gut jet cities and change the brand of caps and resistors not changing a single value and notice huge differences in tone (and one preffered the original china equipped caps!), so attribute anything to taste I guess.
Back to the hot rod avenger (all of that in one sentence), which is the one I have. In this case the signal path is the same, but that half triode doing nothing is added to give a loop out.
So, I don't get why soldano did this but he pretty much piggybacked the 2,2K cathode unbypassed/100K plate that the crunch channel uses after the fourth stage and took the loop out from the plate!!! You can see that if you google soldano SL 60 preamp schematic to get how he did it.
What changes is that you have a loop without the cathode follower buffering it (which many think that is a super integral part for the SLO tone. I find it marginal and even add a buffer in the loop and get some slight tonal change to cleaner/smoother, prefer the normal tone. Mike Soldano's original SLO doesn't have a loop or the second cathode follower). That loop out has the typical impedance of a 12ax7 and soldano adds a small resistor network to parallel that and bring it down to 4,4K.
If you drive a rack effect out of that, you are in for a big surprise. As the loop doesn't have the huge hot level and 600 ohms out of the cathode follower on the real SLO loop out, it sees usually a load of 20K or less on many rack effects. And doesn't drive them as hard. That means a lot of signal loss and bass/treble roll off and not ideal function. It's doable though, I sometimes like the tone more on that later. A tc g major has to be set in consumer (not +4db) level to be driven ok signal wise.
So soldano advertises that as a pedal friendly loop. It is. It is closer to a...guitar pickup output and is a lower signal (but not boss level low, I overdrive those easily). It drives well effects with a 1M input and somewhat normal to good headroom. It sounds great through a lowly digitech rp360. No coloration to wine about.
So you have 1st input stage, 2nd stage (1st triode)
3rd stage cold clipping to a 100K/2,2K unbypassed (2nd triode)
and THEN another 100K/2,2K stage that connects to the last tube stage that completes the cathode follower that drives the SLO tonestack with a 1M master volume. This is the last triode.
So it has an extra tube gain stage...and it compresses a bit more, becomes chewier. With a boost it sounds angry, ...and justice for all tight and I can put it against any super hi gain for gain amount. Ridiculous!!! What an angry amp.
Without a boost, using a PAF it's almost not metal at all...but you hear clear almost clean strong bass. My framus dragon was also like this even though it had EL34s, sounded very close.
Soldano's power amp is second to none for me. In loud levels it dominates.
By the way, the avenger/hot rod PI caps are smaller vs the SLO but amp guys say the values won't make a difference at all...but there you have it if you want to mod it to "SLO specs".
So you need to maybe change the r/c networks to have the same cutoff with less resistance, change the gain pots to maybe achieve the same r/c effect with the tube miller capacitance (because again, 1M bypassed with .470p (avenger) is the same hz wise with a 500K gain pot (SLO)). You can put another 1M resistor and snip the cap to experiment. I just dime the pot to take it out lol. Can't seem to see something changing...other than the gain ups and compresses a bit.
And then you can change the avenger forth stage for more clipping and maybe take out the 5th (loop) stage with a bypass switch) to emulate the first patriarch SLO and that is it. No other real differences. But those differences should indeed along with the transformers make it sludgier and make it breath differently especially on "same settings".
But dark as one said I can use. For one of my cabs, (brunetti 4x12 with jensens brunetti customs-amazing speakers) which I think lets any amp I have breath frequency wise, it'd be pointless to connect a treblier SLO variant as even the avenger can pierce your ears if you set it so...I'd mod the SLO lol in that case.
Through an orange 4x12 cab with worn original blackbacks you get a hugely different response. Maybe there an SLO would be heard differently and especially in loud volumes. How loud though? There the avenger is dark and a bit like a marshall...with 6L6s. Some gain from treble overtones is...lost!
The avenger is a weird anomaly of an amp in the SLO family but I get its charm and why many prefer it. I like it just the way it is. And connect different preamps to emulate the SLO style cleaner higher gain. However you have to take one of the tonestacks out in that occasion by diming the mids! Or combine them for something unique. As with the SLO the loop return is before the tonestack...
Oh by the way the guy I traded my avenger with, had a jet city 100 in parallel to compare and his words were that they were very similar but the avenger sounded a lot clearer. Not so much to prevent you enjoy each!
I have one, I traced it somewhat because there is a lot of confussion about it vs the SLO etc.
It's not in any way "identical", point by point to the lead channel of the SLO, however this doesn't really mean much. In the same logic, nor is the rectifier or EVH 5153 yet they all share something and duesentrieb already described it to be honest.
For me, it's the relationship between the cold clipping 3rd stage and the resistor choices of the 4th stage after it.
There is a picture in the previous page. In every one of those amps, the 3rd stage has that big ass 39K resistor (less on the EVH 50 watt, more marshally and better harmonics but still super large by amp standards) and then that classical 220K/330K voltage divider to the 4th stage which every amp maker from mesa to framus blatanly ripped off lol. KSR as well I think? Anyway. Avengers have from 1,8K bypassed or 2,2K unbypassed on the cathode and always a 100K on the plate. People that traced one or two had these values drawn out.
The SLO forth stage has 1,8K bypassed with 220K. And it has more clipping vs the avenger. Changing those gives more clipping if you want it. You can check the other amp makers choices as well which is usually 220K/1,8K with bypass or partial bypass for the rectifier etc.
So the lower "gain" is the avenger out of all them. Personally I see it to be the case, through the same cab vs the rectifier I have. It is higher gain than my JCM 800 and lower than the early rectifier that I have. That one has 250K gain pots as well vs the 1M later one that mesa used I think...
But the real catch for the avenger is its layout. First of all no channel switching. No vactrols. No clean channel bleed vs the SLO. If those matter to you, you can set the clean channel volume to zero or change the vactrol to eliminate the bleed. Some people find differences others think it's not really important.
I don't agree about the parallel master volume pots making a difference in the SLO as to what the tonestack sees as a load. First and foremost, where the pots are set is what the load is. So it's variable all the time. No bleed there as well...
Taking this out of account, you should notice that an avenger has always 4 12ax7s and one is the PI. So there are 3 available to the preamp.
To complete the lead channel circuit of the SLO lead channel you need one more. So it's not an exact copy and it's not about the clean/crunch channel missing. That one only requires half a triode.
So something had to go for them to save a tube (and check out how the avenger splits into two versions).
The original hot rod 50 or avenger 50 has no loop.
Count the stages.
First input stage, second stage 1st triode.
Third cold clipper to fourth stage, 2nd triode.
After that, you have the cathode follower which requires half a triode attached to the fourth stage and drives the tonestack. That is half a triode of the 3rd and final preamp stage before the PI.
So in those amps, which resemble the vintage mode on the mesa rectifier as a topology, or "hot rodded JCM 800 style) a bit, you have half a triode doing nothing. This is a fact.
On the 50 watt version the first R/C network after the .22n coupling cap is .470p/1M so it cuts off at 370 hz more or less. That means that version is tighter. Maybe it's because it's 50 watts, who knows they didn't want to make it bassier. People, along with the smaller power amp giving the goods earlier along with the aforementioned preamp with half a tube doing nothing, prefer it. Some prefer it to the SLO.
My amp is a hot rod avenger 100, later model somewhat.
That one differs.
First R/C network is 1n/1M. Cut off is 120? hz? or 135. "Half" hz down (370 divided by 2) vs the 50 watt version (can't remember exact number) and is identical to the SLO lead which uses .02u/475K R/C to achieve the same cutoff. It doesn't matter what resistor values you use in the interstage coupling path to achieve the same cutoff but some may argue that smaller resistors make for a more immediate amp. Who knows. Maybe it is why he uses that on the SLO or he could order in bulk for the other amps and bring the cost down with different values. But the cutoff is the same.
Hey, guys gut jet cities and change the brand of caps and resistors not changing a single value and notice huge differences in tone (and one preffered the original china equipped caps!), so attribute anything to taste I guess.
Back to the hot rod avenger (all of that in one sentence), which is the one I have. In this case the signal path is the same, but that half triode doing nothing is added to give a loop out.
So, I don't get why soldano did this but he pretty much piggybacked the 2,2K cathode unbypassed/100K plate that the crunch channel uses after the fourth stage and took the loop out from the plate!!! You can see that if you google soldano SL 60 preamp schematic to get how he did it.
What changes is that you have a loop without the cathode follower buffering it (which many think that is a super integral part for the SLO tone. I find it marginal and even add a buffer in the loop and get some slight tonal change to cleaner/smoother, prefer the normal tone. Mike Soldano's original SLO doesn't have a loop or the second cathode follower). That loop out has the typical impedance of a 12ax7 and soldano adds a small resistor network to parallel that and bring it down to 4,4K.
If you drive a rack effect out of that, you are in for a big surprise. As the loop doesn't have the huge hot level and 600 ohms out of the cathode follower on the real SLO loop out, it sees usually a load of 20K or less on many rack effects. And doesn't drive them as hard. That means a lot of signal loss and bass/treble roll off and not ideal function. It's doable though, I sometimes like the tone more on that later. A tc g major has to be set in consumer (not +4db) level to be driven ok signal wise.
So soldano advertises that as a pedal friendly loop. It is. It is closer to a...guitar pickup output and is a lower signal (but not boss level low, I overdrive those easily). It drives well effects with a 1M input and somewhat normal to good headroom. It sounds great through a lowly digitech rp360. No coloration to wine about.
So you have 1st input stage, 2nd stage (1st triode)
3rd stage cold clipping to a 100K/2,2K unbypassed (2nd triode)
and THEN another 100K/2,2K stage that connects to the last tube stage that completes the cathode follower that drives the SLO tonestack with a 1M master volume. This is the last triode.
So it has an extra tube gain stage...and it compresses a bit more, becomes chewier. With a boost it sounds angry, ...and justice for all tight and I can put it against any super hi gain for gain amount. Ridiculous!!! What an angry amp.
Without a boost, using a PAF it's almost not metal at all...but you hear clear almost clean strong bass. My framus dragon was also like this even though it had EL34s, sounded very close.
Soldano's power amp is second to none for me. In loud levels it dominates.
By the way, the avenger/hot rod PI caps are smaller vs the SLO but amp guys say the values won't make a difference at all...but there you have it if you want to mod it to "SLO specs".
So you need to maybe change the r/c networks to have the same cutoff with less resistance, change the gain pots to maybe achieve the same r/c effect with the tube miller capacitance (because again, 1M bypassed with .470p (avenger) is the same hz wise with a 500K gain pot (SLO)). You can put another 1M resistor and snip the cap to experiment. I just dime the pot to take it out lol. Can't seem to see something changing...other than the gain ups and compresses a bit.
And then you can change the avenger forth stage for more clipping and maybe take out the 5th (loop) stage with a bypass switch) to emulate the first patriarch SLO and that is it. No other real differences. But those differences should indeed along with the transformers make it sludgier and make it breath differently especially on "same settings".
But dark as one said I can use. For one of my cabs, (brunetti 4x12 with jensens brunetti customs-amazing speakers) which I think lets any amp I have breath frequency wise, it'd be pointless to connect a treblier SLO variant as even the avenger can pierce your ears if you set it so...I'd mod the SLO lol in that case.
Through an orange 4x12 cab with worn original blackbacks you get a hugely different response. Maybe there an SLO would be heard differently and especially in loud volumes. How loud though? There the avenger is dark and a bit like a marshall...with 6L6s. Some gain from treble overtones is...lost!
The avenger is a weird anomaly of an amp in the SLO family but I get its charm and why many prefer it. I like it just the way it is. And connect different preamps to emulate the SLO style cleaner higher gain. However you have to take one of the tonestacks out in that occasion by diming the mids! Or combine them for something unique. As with the SLO the loop return is before the tonestack...
Oh by the way the guy I traded my avenger with, had a jet city 100 in parallel to compare and his words were that they were very similar but the avenger sounded a lot clearer. Not so much to prevent you enjoy each!