Donnie B.
Banned
Well-known member
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thedeadzone
Active member
I sold my tube rig when I got the Axe-FX III a couple years ago. I'd always been someone who might use a modeler or something solid state for rehearsal or personal practice, or even small gigs, but my primary rig was always going to be a tube head. After 30 years of playing, the Axe-FX III changed my mind.
But I ended up rebuilding my tube rig last year. It's just more comfortable for me. I used the Axe-FX III for my outboard effects in the loop of my amp, and it works great, plus that's also my backup if my amp ever has a problem. Then I got an FM3 last November, and I like it just as much as the Axe-FX III, it's just a different tool for a different job.
I haven't been happy with IRs and FRFR. To me that's where modelling still falls short. Those of us who've spent decades with amp-in-the-room probably aren't going to see equivalency with emulation of a mic'd cab, because it's apples to oranges. Not necessarily substandard, just different.
I don't care whether the models in the Fractal stuff are identical to their traditional namesakes or not. I see it as a set of ingredients and utensils for creating the sounds I want. Through a driven cab, I like the sound every bit as much as my tube rig. I also regularly get compliments on my tone from other guitarists, which is surprising considering the adversarial attitudes of bands/musicians in my area. Bands don't really come out to support other bands. They come out to critique, and talk about how much better they could do it.
I just think it's great that we've got a lot of options.
But I ended up rebuilding my tube rig last year. It's just more comfortable for me. I used the Axe-FX III for my outboard effects in the loop of my amp, and it works great, plus that's also my backup if my amp ever has a problem. Then I got an FM3 last November, and I like it just as much as the Axe-FX III, it's just a different tool for a different job.
I haven't been happy with IRs and FRFR. To me that's where modelling still falls short. Those of us who've spent decades with amp-in-the-room probably aren't going to see equivalency with emulation of a mic'd cab, because it's apples to oranges. Not necessarily substandard, just different.
I don't care whether the models in the Fractal stuff are identical to their traditional namesakes or not. I see it as a set of ingredients and utensils for creating the sounds I want. Through a driven cab, I like the sound every bit as much as my tube rig. I also regularly get compliments on my tone from other guitarists, which is surprising considering the adversarial attitudes of bands/musicians in my area. Bands don't really come out to support other bands. They come out to critique, and talk about how much better they could do it.
I just think it's great that we've got a lot of options.
cardinal
Well-known member
I can't get into the IR/FRFR thing either. I'd rather use a tiny guitar cab if necessary.
RevDrucifer
Well-known member
I can find something in almost every amp I don't dig; Marshall's can be too bright, Mesa's can be too flubby/fizzy, Diezel's can be too compressed, etc. That's in both the physical and modeled versions and just comes down to personal preferences. Having the option to tweak the hell out of it, even to the point it's no longer recognizable from the original model, is what I love about Fractal shit the most.
RevDrucifer
Well-known member
These are fair points and I can only explain my perception of it-
For starts, I HATE seeing the phrase "It's more real now". Unless it comes with a description of what "more real" means, it's fucking stupid and deserves the criticism, IMO.
That said, when explained, it makes a bit more sense. Pre-Cygnus I was putting a PEQ block after every cab block of high gain presets to cut some nasty 3K-4K fizz. Post-Cygnus I've removed 98% of them. The starting points when making a new preset are much closer to what you hear when plugging into the model's physical counterpart. So in THAT sense, it's closer to the experience of plugging into an amp and dialing it in.
There's an Authentic and an Ideal menu within the amp block. The Authentic tab gives you only the controls that are on the physical amp, while the Ideal tab gives you a High Treble, Depth and Presence, regardless if it's on the physical amp or not. I used to only use the Ideal tab, now I'm only using the Authentic tab.
So it's not that the previous versions/updates sounded bad, they just required more tweaking to get to the same point you could get in Cygnus. Well, that's not 100% accurate because the models have changed and there are some differences, but that's the gist for the most part.
There's also the whole bit about not realizing you needed/wanted something until it's been put in your lap. IE- the Pitch block; I was fine with it previously, but then Cliff re-did the algorithm and the Virtual Capo is a badass that I'd be really bummed if I didn't have now. Tonally, this occurred with Cygnus and myself as well, because I focus a lot on lower mids, not the thumpy ones, but the ones that really make an amp growl. Cygnus' focus is in that exact area. I was fine with it before, but if it were removed, I'd be bummed out.
RevDrucifer
Well-known member
I'll never suggest an FRFR to anyone looking for an amp in the room thing. The equivalent of a PA system isn't going to feel like an amp. The only way to get that is to plug into a return of a head or power amp and into a guitar cab.
I also just use the models as a ballpark to know where I'm starting off, where I end up has no attachment to the name of the model. The last thing I'm interested in is recreating specific amps and it took me a while to understand why some people were so deadset on it; mainly because they were using the Fractal stuff when they couldn't use their normal rig. In that case, makes total sense and it'd certainly be convenient for them if it were a 1:1 mock-up.
But the ability to dial in whatever you want is priceless to me. What would take me hours of post-EQ work to get an amp to sit right in a mix, or spending forever moving a mic around a cabinet....all done with. When I mix songs now, I just let a DI play while I tweak in AxeEdit as the rest of the song is playing, zero post-EQ required!
Donnie B.
Banned
Well-known member
Listen, I am not trying to be a dick, just playing a somewhat extreme devil's advocate.
So are you saying that previous to Cygnas, Fractal's modeling wasn't very accurate?
Using so many PEQs as band aids wouldn't happen in the analog world in an overwhelming
majority of cases, so having to previous to Cygnus is a pretty big flaw with their modeling.
RevDrucifer
Well-known member
You're conflating 1 PEQ block per preset, targeting a very specific frequency range, in high gain amps only, with the entire thing not being "very accurate". That's a bit of a stretch.
(See the screenshots below to see "so many PEQ's")And while there aren't many dude's with parametric EQ's in their rigs these days, or even back in the day, that fizz is present in 5150's and Dual Rec's all day long, it usually just gets chopped off or softened in the mixing phase with a HPF.
Attachments
Donnie B.
Banned
Well-known member
RevDrucifer
Well-known member
Not anymore with the Cygnus update.....
You should see the current Cygnus thread on the Fractal forum. There's a bunch of us that are stoked with it in it's current state and then the others are split between "It sounds thinner now" and "It sounds darker now". There's not as much useless low-mids in a lot of the models, the exact stuff I dial out with a multi-band comp, conversely, the lack of that nasty 3K-4K has some people thinking it sounds darker and are suggesting boosting that exact area.
I'd be willing to bet that those of us who are mainly recording with it are the ones who are stoked and the ones who are using it live/bedroom are the ones complaining about it being too thin or too dark.
And depending on the IR, you can definitely get all that fizz right back without trying too hard!
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rm5153
Well-known member
Like others have said, purchase one used and go from there. These can be had for between $1700 and $1800. I have the Axe 3 and have also been part of the Fractal community since the AXE FX Standard. I have A/B'd the AXE FX 3 and my real Friedman BE100 DLX going through the same cabinets and the same Boss Waza TAE for the power and posted video's online. Most chimed in and felt the sample that was really the AXE 3 was the real amp and vice versa. Most hear the polished tone and think that is the real tube amp when it is not.
The new Cygnus really opened up the amp sims and added some clarity/dynamics that wasn't there prior to this software update. The key is to still set up your quiet playing patches and your band level patches and to find some IR's and to not be afraid to mix up to 4 IR's at once to really tailor your tone. I mainly play the AXE 3 still with real cabinets so I take the IR response game out of the mix as I never really mastered/gelled with the IR's. I must say that with my setup and owning 2 Friedman ASM12 FRFR cabinets I can play these with Cabinet Sims on and also through my 2 412 cabinets with no Cabinet Sims so I truly get to mix and get the best of both worlds.
The can seem like a deep Rabbits Hole but the software has come so far that the amp blocks need minimal tweaking. If you can master a few EQ blocks you can easily dial in or out any frequencies that need adjusting on any patch.
The new Cygnus really opened up the amp sims and added some clarity/dynamics that wasn't there prior to this software update. The key is to still set up your quiet playing patches and your band level patches and to find some IR's and to not be afraid to mix up to 4 IR's at once to really tailor your tone. I mainly play the AXE 3 still with real cabinets so I take the IR response game out of the mix as I never really mastered/gelled with the IR's. I must say that with my setup and owning 2 Friedman ASM12 FRFR cabinets I can play these with Cabinet Sims on and also through my 2 412 cabinets with no Cabinet Sims so I truly get to mix and get the best of both worlds.
The can seem like a deep Rabbits Hole but the software has come so far that the amp blocks need minimal tweaking. If you can master a few EQ blocks you can easily dial in or out any frequencies that need adjusting on any patch.
Spaceboy
Well-known member
VSTs are very, very quickly closing the gap between hardware modelers and cheap plugins. If your needs are mostly recording/home practice, at this point it could be argued that your money is better spent elsewhere than on something like the Axe FX III. If you're planning to go direct live though, that's a different matter, and honestly, Axe FX III is the best digital solution on the market (coming from someone who owns them all). It has it's drawbacks though, the biggest for me being that the inconvenience and irritation of tweaking to get an Axe III to sound right through a real cabinet is a much worse user experience than simply setting up a tube amp with some effects. The Kemper is so much better in this application, but has it's own drawbacks in flexibility and user interface.
So basically, it completely depends on your needs as a musician. There are plugins out there that sound every bit as good as the equivalent models on the Axe FX III.
So basically, it completely depends on your needs as a musician. There are plugins out there that sound every bit as good as the equivalent models on the Axe FX III.
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Nigel
Guest
Tell you what, best bang for the buck bedroom tone rig in my experience is an Orange Brent Hinds Terror with Russian 6n14n’s, 100 ohm bias resistor (stock is 150), and a V30 in an open back cab.
Amp was $300 on a STOTD sale.
Hit the bedroom switch and it goes from 7/15 to .5/1 watt. Cathode bias and unmatched power tubes up the even-order harmonics which gives the solid state smoothness. It’ll still hit 85db at one watt so it’s not quiet even on “bedroom” vs “headroom,” but man, great mod marshall grind, crunch and clean. Dime the eq, run it low B+ and run the 8 ohm tap into a 16 ohm speaker and it’s Van Halen land. A joy to play every time.
Good luck in your search man!
gbsmusic
Well-known member
You need one I have 1 for sale
Donnie B.
Banned
Well-known member
You need one I have 1 for sale
You one of the 8 on Reverb?
https://reverb.com/p/fractal-audio-axe-fx-iii
C
Clig Herdunkachuk
Well-known member
I have an Axe FX III. If you plan on participating in the online Fractal community you may want to consider if you are ok joining a cult. It gets a little weird there at times, particularly around firmware releases. The cult of personality around Cliff is huge and I found it a bit disconcerting to see grown, successful men being such sycophants, cringe-y even. Independent thought and questioning will generally get the true believers all up in your junk. I just stopped being a part of the community... which is a big part of owning an Axe FX.
There is a lot of artificial harmony on the FAS forum and the tensions boil over from time to time and are typically "moderated away" very quickly (i.e. deleted). There are also the favored "sons" of the forum: the FMs who can be toxic and get away with it while others are accosted for far lesser "offenses". AdminM@ wants FAS members to be "FAS Ambassadors", unless you are one of the annointed members who can behave like general little shits. There is one high post count member who seems to need to weigh in on everything and is generally a jerk in doing so. He also thinks he is a pseudo-mod but he does not really contribute as much as he thinks he does. But he is allowed to get away with being a toxic twat on the forum and has for years.
I also found that even when they are legitimately helping you (there are very knowledgeable people who can point you straight fairly quickly), most of the "names" on the forum incorporate a heaping does of condescension with their assistance.
The current "Cygnus" thread over on the FAS Forum has a number of serious posters... and more than its fair share of boot licking too. The people who dare to deviate from the company line are getting the typical FAS Forum treatment for non-conformists: chided, argued with, lectured, and dismissed.
As an example, one FM reported the levels on a specific amp model were too high. Cliff responded with a snarky "turn the level down" (and of course got the obligatory "like" and "haha" reactions from the cult members). Leon Todd reported the same issue with the same amp model. Cliff's response: "Fixed for next release". Cliff is really sensitive about the "snark" that blows his way but he is probably the snarkiest SOB on that forum. If the forum is rough and tumble, let it be that for everyone not just the chosen few.
YMMV
There is a lot of artificial harmony on the FAS forum and the tensions boil over from time to time and are typically "moderated away" very quickly (i.e. deleted). There are also the favored "sons" of the forum: the FMs who can be toxic and get away with it while others are accosted for far lesser "offenses". AdminM@ wants FAS members to be "FAS Ambassadors", unless you are one of the annointed members who can behave like general little shits. There is one high post count member who seems to need to weigh in on everything and is generally a jerk in doing so. He also thinks he is a pseudo-mod but he does not really contribute as much as he thinks he does. But he is allowed to get away with being a toxic twat on the forum and has for years.
I also found that even when they are legitimately helping you (there are very knowledgeable people who can point you straight fairly quickly), most of the "names" on the forum incorporate a heaping does of condescension with their assistance.
The current "Cygnus" thread over on the FAS Forum has a number of serious posters... and more than its fair share of boot licking too. The people who dare to deviate from the company line are getting the typical FAS Forum treatment for non-conformists: chided, argued with, lectured, and dismissed.
As an example, one FM reported the levels on a specific amp model were too high. Cliff responded with a snarky "turn the level down" (and of course got the obligatory "like" and "haha" reactions from the cult members). Leon Todd reported the same issue with the same amp model. Cliff's response: "Fixed for next release". Cliff is really sensitive about the "snark" that blows his way but he is probably the snarkiest SOB on that forum. If the forum is rough and tumble, let it be that for everyone not just the chosen few.
YMMV
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gbsmusic
Well-known member
No I don't do reverb I have it for sale here and a couple other places. You can find my ad in the classifieds.
RevDrucifer
Well-known member
You're not entirely wrong and I also find the worship of Cliff to be really fucking odd and I said this somewhere else recently, if I were Cliff, reading one page of that would probably push me away from the internet forever. I just don't take compliments well, even when I deserve them.
I'm 99% sure I know which high-post count/condescending member you're talking about and I've also caught that same vibe from him. Another one has popped up recently and takes it a bit further by adding in "we think it's best if you...", coming off like he actually works for Fractal. FWIW, I've seen mods tell this particular guy in the past to watch his wording and then clarified who actually works for Fractal and who doesn't.
Actually, a couple beta's ago, there's a poster who speaks multiple languages and English isn't his first, he can come off as a bit brash as a result of the translation and he caught a lot of flak for reporting what seemed to be a bug and a bunch of posters railed against him until Cliff came out and said, "Actually, we can thank ________ for reporting this as a bug. It'll be fixed in the next beta." So yeah, that stuff definitely happens.
At the same time, in the context of people laughing at Cliff giving basic, obvious advice; Cliff's a New Englander and busting balls is part of the New England culture. I can certainly see how in this day and age of people being offended and expecting nothing but professionalism in customer service can be taken back by that, but as a New Englander, it reminds me of going to the mechanic, telling them you're there for an oil change and the guy behind the counter going, "Yeah? What do you want me to do about it? Cry?" (Which is what was said to me when I got my first oil change when I was 16). So I can see how shit like that can go both ways. The internet doesn't really allow for sarcasm and facetious comments to come off that way so easily, we need a Boston-based OS
But yeah, the worship thing is odd. About a month ago over on TGP, Doug from NDSP was talking about lifting weights and for about two days after, all the guys with QC's on pre-order were talking about how much he can lift, how much steak he must eat to maintain his muscle mass, it was really, really fucking weird. It's the same thing I see people do with Cliff and it makes me feel uneasy, it's like 40 year old dudes turning into 13 year old girls.
All that said, there's invaluable information on that forum and the majority of people just want to help. As long as you can ignore the hardcore fanboism (I'm an admitted fanboy, but I kiss the ass of no one) and the couple know-it-alls, there's a wealth of information and tips to be had.
Donnie B.
Banned
Well-known member
I was born and spent my first 37 years in New England, and you're right. We love busting balls.
And while Cliff does do that now and then, he's also a few other things that I won't bother typing out.
Being from New England has no bearing on those traits.
And just cause you have a lot of fanboys doesn't mean you have to be an a-hole.
LOTS of folks in the MI business handle it just fine - like Doug has to date.
RevDrucifer
Well-known member
Oh come on, you really don't see how being from New England has no bearing on those traits? Really?
Half the reason I'm moving back to New England is because I'm tired of the bullshit everywhere else with people blowing smoke up your ass and not delivering on their word. I rarely dealt with that shit in New England but it's nonstop in South Florida.
To add to that, anytime the guy ventures outside the Fractal forum, he's generally spending his time reading people post complete misinformation or doing what they can to drag the name through the rug. As someone who has worked in customer service my entire life, I'll take the Cliff approach of not kissing anyone's ass rather than bending over backwards to kiss it. Doug has to be nice to people right now; they were months late on the release of their first physical product and it's not even shipping with it's advertised features, they don't have the track record yet that'll give people the benefit of the doubt. Not to mention, he's in a country not exactly known for being dicks, where Cliff is from an area where being a dick is just part of the culture.