The tonal quest

[VH4_BigRig]

Hi guys, I’m looking for some advice on how to get the sound in my head.

After playing my VH4 for the last little while, I think I’ve realized that the amp on its own can’t produce the sound in my head when it comes to heavy distortion (I’m specifically talking about channels 3 and 4 here). I’ve used the amp with both EL34s and 6L6s, and while the EL34s sounded better to my ear, the amp still didn’t quite have the sound I’m after. The VH4 is bar none the best amp I’ve ever had the privilege to play, and has gotten me SO close to “the sound”… there’s just something missing. The previous Marshall/Mesa amps I’ve played got me to about 70-75% of what I heard in my head, while the VH4 has got me to about 85-90%. It’s just that last 10% is missing.

I’ve used various guitars with different pickups when using the EL34s and the one thing that I think is sticking out to me is the fact that no matter what, the amp seems to be very “dry” sounding. Is this something that’s inherent of all Diezels, or is this just the way the VH4 sounds? Unfortunately I haven’t had the chance to play the Herbie or the Einie, so I can’t compare the sounds. I’m not sure if this is just the way the VH4 sounds because the intent of the amp is to be “tight” in all situations (which it obviously does well in spades), or whether all Diezels sound this way.

Unfortunately, I’m from a small town and have only recently moved to a city where amps other than Crate and Marshall combos exist, so I haven’t had the opportunity to play as many amps as I would have liked. I basically saved up my money and got a Diezel based on reputation and because of the fact that both Adam Jones and James Hetfield use the VH4. I’d really value the input from you guys (like nbarts and van hellion), because you’ve played all of the amps I’d love to get my hands on to try myself at some point. I’m not sure whether to get that last 10% if I have to simply use another amp in conjunction with the VH4, or whether I might be better off switching to another head (like the Herbie) as the main base of my sound.

Since I’m so close right now, I have a hunch that simply adding another amp to the mix will likely do the trick, but I don’t know. I posted in the Rig-talk forum earlier asking for advice on what marshall-ish amp to get to go along with the VH4, and got a lot of recommendations, but haven’t picked up anything yet. I have the feeling that “the sound” will require both a head with 6L6s and a head with EL34s, as it just isn’t possible for one amp to cover the whole tonal spectrum. I’m pretty set on using the 6L6s in the VH4 thanks to the awesome cleans (which I need very much for my style), so what would you suggest? Would adding a JCM 800/Stiletto/JSX/Ecstacy/Uberschall/etc to the mix do the trick? The sound I’m after is a cross between Adam’s tone on the song “Parabola” and Zakk Wylde’s tone on “Perry Mason.” It’s very warm, thick, tight/defined, and ballsy, but doesn’t crush the bass in the mix (which I play a lot of as well). I like the bass to have a pretty big part in the mix, after listening to Timmy C from Rage/Audioslave I developed a love for a really raunchy bass sound. He’s not my all time fav player (that’s Aston Barrett), but he’s got my all time fav bass tone.

This forum has been invaluable to me since I found it…I’ve only been playing 11 years, so as well developed as my ears have become over the last 2 years or so, I know there is still a lot out there for me to learn! Luckily the folks here are very open and not condescending, which is great, it makes it fun to be part of the Deizel family

Thanks in advance for the help!

 

[nbarts]

You are opening a big can of worms, my friend. Recording is a tricky business. I don't really have time to go for a long one right now, but I'll add my 2¢ later.

In the meantime read this
http://mixonline.com/recording/projects ... ools_days/

 

[supersonic]

A can of worms alright! Personally I don't think that one amp can handle all duties. They all have their own flavour, most of the time it depends on what the track calls for. Although the Herbert is a very good all rounder. CAE OD100 is great for cleans. Bogner XTC is great for saturated overdrive. Slo 100 will give you more punch and grind, but is a thinner sound.

 

[Lexicon Devil]

You've tried 6L6's as well as EL34's in your Diezel, but have you tried 6550's or KT88's? Zakk Wylde uses 6550's in his amps, and they have their good points as well as their bad points. 6550's have a very tight bass sound, and really high headroom. Although I've never used them, KT88's are described as having the high headroom and tight low end as 6550's, but sound a bit warmer than 6550's. --The Diezel will take either of these tubes with no modification to the circuit, other than a routine bias adjustment.

You might want to try differant tubes in the Diezel before you consider dropping a couple thousand on another amp that you'll invariably have to load out of a club late at night and haul around, in addition to the VH4 rig.

 

[van hellion]

oh lord this is a mess! while in orlando this weekend i hooked up with a forum guy from harmony central who had all bogners and diezels offered, slo 100, cornford hellcat and mk 50, vht deliverence and ultralead, caa od 100 se+, framus, makos, i mean everything! i was happy to see that i still liked my herbert the best as an all around type of amp (for some reason i still find it the most versatile ) . and as a direct answer to one of your questions, herbert and einstien both feel a little "less dry" than vh 4. (i will be ordering a hellcat in the near future, most ferocious low wattage amp i have ever tried!!) i cant really help in any other way but that was my findings after a full day of side by side comparisons with my hands in the equation rather than someone elses onpinion. And for what its worth my faavorite bogner by far was the ecstacy classic, i had no idea the difference between it and the 101b. Also your hands are the biggest part of the equation and you need to find the gear that works with that part since you cant get new hands lol. just my 2 cents
peace
A Wood

 

[wolfeman28]

Since I’m so close right now, I have a hunch that simply adding another amp to the mix will likely do the trick, but I don’t know. I posted in the Rig-talk forum earlier asking for advice on what marshall-ish amp to get to go along with the VH4, and got a lot of recommendations, but haven’t picked up anything yet. I have the feeling that “the sound” will require both a head with 6L6s and a head with EL34s, as it just isn’t possible for one amp to cover the whole tonal spectrum. I’m pretty set on using the 6L6s in the VH4 thanks to the awesome cleans (which I need very much for my style), so what would you suggest? Would adding a JCM 800/Stiletto/JSX/Ecstacy/Uberschall/etc to the mix do the trick?

Maybe this will help you out. A band I listen to, The Ocean, came out with a new album last year that had 'The Tone' I've always wanted... It has a VH4 grind, but also had more bite to it than what I've heard out of a VH4 before. I emailed the mastermind behind the band, Robin Staps, and this is what he said-
"yo..
it is a VH4 thorugh a mesa cabinet, 85 % in the mix, miked with a AKG
412 EB, an SM57 and some ribbon mic, and a 5150 through an old
marshall cab to 15% in the mix, miked with and SM57 and 412 EB
we used the 5150 just for a tiny little bit of nasty cutting edge that
the diezel doesn't have

peace
Robin"

Hope that helps. If you want to hear an example of that tone, check out the song called 'For the Great Blue Cold Now Reigns' on this myspace page- The Ocean Collective

 

[angelspade]

I would agree that adding a 5150 to the mix (along with the VH4) MAY be a good move on the recording front, but is somewhat inconvienent for live performance purposes. A few opinions/thoughts from a guy who has owne a lot of high end amps:

1. Both the Herbert and The Einstein are somewhat juicier (not as dry) than the VH4...you will still get that unbelievable signature Diezel voicing and clarity, but be prepared to sacrifice a little "tightness"

2. Find a way to try a Bogner XTC 101B...sounds like it may be in the ballpark of what you are looking for...very good in my opinion, but not as unique in character as either of my Diezels.

3. If you are searching for a more "marshall-esque" flavor, but has some some of the characteristics of a boutique high gainer, I highly recomend the Framus Dragon. But DON'T expect the Framus to keep up with any of the Diezel products...It can't, but you may prefer it's mor farmiliar voicing. You may also want to consider adding a Dragon to your current set up.

Hope this helps.

 

[Jaymz82]

As a starting point I would suggest a pretty cheap and simple solution. Have you ever tried running a pedal, for example a tubescreamer, in front of the VH4? Many people told me that this helps a lot getting a little grittier, more saturated and less dry sound. Just set the pedal to a minimum of gain and play around a bit.

 

[supersonic]

And for what its worth my faavorite bogner by far was the ecstacy classic, i had no idea the difference between it and the 101b.
peace
A Wood

Check this out for a classic Andy. It's my 100b, the 'Classic' model is based on this.

 

[Anonymous]

Since you have a VH-4, have you tried running the global volume above 1: o'clock? It produces powertube distortion, similar to how a SLP Marshall sounds when dimed.
Think Crossroads by Clapton. Add some gain and a touch of dynamic delay just to carress out the dryness you are hearing. You will need to keep the channel volumes down and match the gain from each channel with the distortion you are hearing from the power tubes to blend the right amount of grind into the mix.

 

[Jaymz82]

Since you have a VH-4, have you tried running the global volume above 1: o'clock? It produces powertube distortion, similar to how a SLP Marshall sounds when dimed.
Think Crossroads by Clapton. Add some gain and a touch of dynamic delay just to carress out the dryness you are hearing. You will need to keep the channel volumes down and match the gain from each channel with the distortion you are hearing from the power tubes to blend the right amount of grind into the mix.

Good point you've got there. I totally forgot about that. The VH4 unlike the Herbert can sound very different when you raise the master volume and drop the channel volume.

 

[nbarts]

Let me start a little bit with the guitar sound that we hear on a record.

Pick
Strings (brand, gauge)
Pickups
The Guitar
Cable/Connectors
Pedal(s)
Amplifier (tubes (brand/type))
EFX in the loop
Cabinet/Speaker(s)
Room (acoustics/placement)
Microphone(s) (type/placement & level of each track in the mix later)
Pre-Amplifier
Tape & tape saturation
EQ
Reverb/Delay
Buss compressor
Mastering (EQ/Compressor or whatever else is necessary)
...... and the system we use to play back this record later.

Are you following me yet?

Now give this exact chain to 3 different guitar players (same settings for everything) & you won’t believe how different the end result will sound. It could be that all you need is a condenser mic several ft away from the amp mixed with your close dynamic or whatever you use or possibly you need a quality reverb in the mix or a good room to track in or maybe tape saturation or ….. another amp. Or possibly you need a different bass or drum sound, because the same guitar track sounds very different depending on the content. Are you really 90% happy with your sound? Because if you really are you are in a better place than I am, I’m not 90% happy with anything. 90% is pretty damn good, I’d stick with it. Recording is an endless struggle. A year ago if I could get the quality I get today I would throw a party, today it irritates me & that’s how it's been for many years now.

I played Parabola yesterday, it sounds like they had wah in the chain throughout the whole song. You want that & you want Perry Mason & leave a lot of space open for the bass. Good luck It looks like you’ll need to thin out your drums a lot to achieve this.

So to answer your original question try the Herbert & modified marshals if you happen to find one you can try before you buy, but to tell you the truth I think you should be able to achieve what you need with your VH4 ch2-4 by maybe just running a simple boost or eq pedal in front of your amp or maybe mixing 2 channels together or mixing 2-3 mics or double tracking with slightly different settings or just finding the right guitar/pickup combination.

 

[van hellion]

And for what its worth my faavorite bogner by far was the ecstacy classic, i had no idea the difference between it and the 101b.
peace
A Wood

Check this out for a classic Andy. It's my 100b, the 'Classic' model is based on this.

yeah thats sweet for sure, any vids of it in action?

 

[supersonic]

Sorry Andy no vids. Sounds pretty sweet though. I used it for most of the solos on Myspace. ch 3 is my fav. I've never played a 101b to compare.

 

[van hellion]

ch 3 is more compressed and gainy. my favorite sound out of any of the bogners was the Classic like yours on the second channel with the bb preamp driving it for the gain, talk about liquid i will tell you this too, that cornford hellcat is friggin awesome too, insane lead sounds!
peace
A Wood

 

[skippystz]

As a starting point I would suggest a pretty cheap and simple solution. Have you ever tried running a pedal, for example a tubescreamer, in front of the VH4? Many people told me that this helps a lot getting a little grittier, more saturated and less dry sound. Just set the pedal to a minimum of gain and play around a bit.

i second that!!!

I run a ts-9 in my ground control gcx with the gain set to about 9 o'clock. it's more to shape the sound than anything else. this totally achieves a less rigid sound, especially on ch.3 of the vh4. it gives it a more liquidy molten distortion with lots of harmonics. this helps bring out the high mids a bit more and makes for a very interesting sound. with a pedal like this in the switcher, you can also achieve 8 different tones in a live setting, which is nice. this is also sweet since i am not too crazy about channel 4's extreme amount of compression in the gain stage, so i can now run channel 4 with the gain around 9 o'clock or less for that old marshall sound, and then kick in the tube screamer and it's instant slash jcm800 once you get the settings right. i would suggest picking up one of these if nothing more just to see what you can get out of it.

-p

 

[guitarobert]

I'll also put in a vote for a distortion or overdrive pedal in front of the VH4 with the gain set very low. I've had good luck with this with several different distortion pedals. It gives channel 3/4 especially a different character.

If that doesn't do it for you, of all the amps I have listened to online (warning: clips, not in person) the Splawns offer a character that seems to me would fit well to fill in a VH4. Find some of the heavier clips of a Nitro or Competition and you'll see what I mean. This might be the kind of amp to pair with a VH4 loaded with 6L6's, but a much more expensive option than the pedal!

 

[nat120]

There is nothing like using two different amps while recording. I agree with some of the previous post if you are going to go with a second amp the Soldano SLO would be great, but will cost alot of money. The 5150 was also a great idea because it has good saturation. I am not sure if you guys know but the 5150 design was primary designed around the SLO. For cost effectiveness the Soldano Avenger 100 is suppose to be the distortion from the SLO. I have an Avenger and it is actually a little more aggressive than the SLO and is a lot cheaper about $1200 on ebay. I use both for recording and the tone is unreal. My dream tone. I use the VH4 and the Soldano Avenger 100 for my recorded tone but for live I just use the VH4.

 

[VH4_BigRig]

Hey guys, thanks for the advice, keep it coming I'll definetly try some of the things you suggested. I used to use an OD pedal in front of my Marshall before I got the VH4 (Zoom Powerdrive...most Zoom pedals suck, but the Powerdrive and Hyper Lead are great!). When I used it with similar settings in front of the VH4, I thought it took away from the tone more than added to it, but now I'll try messing with it a bit more and use some other pedals I have kicking around to see what I can get! I figured if EMGs were too much output, than adding an OD would be way too much, but looks like that's not the case! The master volume has been at 12 o'clock for a while, but now but I'll try pushing that a bit more and turning the channels down to compensate as well.

There's a couple of other things I wanted to follow up on:

a) I've been trying my best to avoid using any sort of effects when it comes to recording the Diezel, I use the odd pedal here and there but overall I've wanted to keep the signal as clean as possible. I love reverb on clean sounds, but usually hate it on dirty sounds. Now I'm thinking about adding some reverb to the mix, any suggestions on a stompbox or plugin that might work? I've had to use Cubase SX to record up to this point, but luckily I'll be upgrading to Nuendo shortly...any advice on what reverb to add from the board or in the FX loop? I feel pretty stupid for not exploring this more since "dryness" was my main complaint...oye

b) I feel like my cab is holding me back, and hopefully I'll be able to upgrade to a Diezel 2x12 from a Mesa 2x12 at some point. Until then, mic position is the best thing I have to work with. The best mics I have to work with right now are a 57 and a 421, any suggestions on where to place them? I wish I could get my hands on a ribbon (a Royer would be sweet...), but unfortunately that's not happening any time soon.

c) Despite a/b, I have a hunch that I will still need an amp with EL34s at some point to get the mids I'm looking for to find the sound in my head. I'll check out all the amps mentioned, but Bogners have been on my radar ever since I got the VH4 (and is why nbart's amp comparison was great). It was mainly the Uberschall that had caught my attention, but now the Ecstasy is starting to sound a lot more appealing. Nobody has mentioned the Shiva yet though, how does that amp sound compared to the other two?

Many thanks, I know this thread is even more than a can of worms....it's a barrel

 

[supersonic]

ch 3 is more compressed and gainy. my favorite sound out of any of the bogners was the Classic like yours on the second channel with the bb preamp driving it for the gain, talk about liquid i will tell you this too, that cornford hellcat is friggin awesome too, insane lead sounds!
peace
A Wood

From what I've heard the Hellcat sounds very nice. How did you set the BB and Bogner od? I've found the BB compresses, as in loses some bottom and lower mid. I supose I could eq to compensate. I've got one floating around here, I'll give it a try on the XTC ch. 2