throaty tone with fast clear attack

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valve

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this is contradictory isn't it. it will always be a trade off.
Everytime i increase bass (and low mids) the speakers sound kind of bloated and loose the sharp attack.
Everytime i use fatter PUs i get the nice EQ, but the attack isn't right and the distortion get kind of rough and messy.

Best to achieve this anyway is to keep a slim frontend (before the distortion) and a fat sounding amp, or what are your experiences?
 
valve said:
this is contradictory isn't it. it will always be a trade off.
Everytime i increase bass (and low mids) the speakers sound kind of bloated and loose the sharp attack.
Everytime i use fatter PUs i get the nice EQ, but the attack isn't right and the distortion get kind of rough and messy.

Best to achieve this anyway is to keep a slim frontend (before the distortion) and a fat sounding amp, or what are your experiences?
Click to expand...
Try a griffin chiron boosting front end. Dial the amp a bit bright with presense either dimed or 3/4 the way up (9 oclock) then adjust treble to take away some of the brightness, but not all. You still want it to be a little too bright at this stage.

Now adjust the gain up a little and the bass will come in a bit more, but dont let it get sloppy, then hit the boost on chiron and maybe put tone at 11 oclock to start. It will magnify the bass frequency, but make it tight. Makes my amp hit like a wizard, but with a more balanced eq

If you have a marshall circuit, this will go a long way. You may have to make minor adjustments to EQ.

If you have a clean boost, you can put it after the chiron and play with the level, this will take you to another level

It should go without saying that
1. You are maxing levels on pedals and "drive" on zero
2. You are going to need to gate, because it is going to get nasty
 
Yeah it’s hard to get both as those qualities tend to go against each other. The best compromise I’ve found so far is to just boost my Recto’s or VH4 with a Klon or also the Lenz Octane is a good balance of both as his take on Recto’s
 
I would try a cast frame speaker over adding different gain devices. Something like an EVM12L, or the Eminence or WGS versions. They will curb stomp any stamped/pressed frame speaker out there in terms of fast and clear attack.

Personally I prefer EV SRO12 alnicos, but they are hard to find in great shape used. Otoh I have had 3 reconed SRO12's that sound to my ears every bit as good as my 1 original cone left. Plenty of midrange on tap, and very clear and explosive attack.
 
braintheory said:
Yeah it’s hard to get both as those qualities tend to go against each other. The best compromise I’ve found so far is to just boost my Recto’s or VH4 with a Klon or also the Lenz Octane is a good balance of both as his take on Recto’s
Click to expand...
Diezels and rectos are the amps i know best!
Need to check out the octane.
Thank you
 
Hiwatts-n-Gibsons said:
I would try a cast frame speaker over adding different gain devices. Something like an EVM12L, or the Eminence or WGS versions. They will curb stomp any stamped/pressed frame speaker out there in terms of fast and clear attack.

Personally I prefer EV SRO12 alnicos, but they are hard to find in great shape used. Otoh I have had 3 reconed SRO12's that sound to my ears every bit as good as my 1 original cone left. Plenty of midrange on tap, and very clear and explosive attack.
Click to expand...
ok, thank you. i need to google most of this stuff. I was a Celestion guy up to this point. Their range and inconsistencies is already to quiet a lot, so i don't have even that down.
 
Smash said:
Try a griffin chiron boosting front end. Dial the amp a bit bright with presense either dimed or 3/4 the way up (9 oclock) then adjust treble to take away some of the brightness, but not all. You still want it to be a little too bright at this stage.

Now adjust the gain up a little and the bass will come in a bit more, but dont let it get sloppy, then hit the boost on chiron and maybe put tone at 11 oclock to start. It will magnify the bass frequency, but make it tight. Makes my amp hit like a wizard, but with a more balanced eq

If you have a marshall circuit, this will go a long way. You may have to make minor adjustments to EQ.

If you have a clean boost, you can put it after the chiron and play with the level, this will take you to another level

It should go without saying that
1. You are maxing levels on pedals and "drive" on zero
2. You are going to need to gate, because it is going to get nasty
Click to expand...
whta's so specific about that pedal. wouldn't any boost (clean or not) do about the same?
 
valve said:
ok, thank you. i need to google most of this stuff. I was a Celestion guy up to this point. Their range and inconsistencies is already to quiet a lot, so i don't have even that down.
Click to expand...
The redback is a very punchy speaker also and celestion. It is what i use
 
Is "throaty" a lower frequency than "snarl"? I have always thought they were almost the same thing.
 
On my pedal switcher, lately I’ve been using one pedal for the clear treble boost for chords and riffs for clarity and switching to a different pedal adding more bottom end for soloing/rambling to add more body without shrill. Works pretty good.
 
My MTL was throaty and clear af, but not exactly fast.
 
While you may as well optimize speakers, I didn't find them to be the answer to me for what you're describing. I love my redbacks, but they're very low mid heavy and looser sounding. With amps like Recto's, Uber's or VH4's they can get pretty flubby and overloaded with low mids. I prefer redbacks with tighter, brighter more attack-y amps. If anything it can help those types of amps get a little more throaty and fuller. With low mid heavy amps go-to's are often JBL's, 20w Greenbacks, Altec 417's or '50's Roger Charles (aka Cletrons). These are all phenomenal speakers with lots of crisp highs, fast response and tightness
 
braintheory said:
While you may as well optimize speakers, I didn't find them to be the answer to me for what you're describing. I love my redbacks, but they're very low mid heavy and looser sounding. With amps like Recto's, Uber's or VH4's they can get pretty flubby and overloaded with low mids. I prefer redbacks with tighter, brighter more attack-y amps. If anything it can help those types of amps get a little more throaty and fuller. With low mid heavy amps go-to's are often JBL's, 20w Greenbacks, Altec 417's or '50's Roger Charles (aka Cletrons). These are all phenomenal speakers with lots of crisp highs, fast response and tightness
Click to expand...
Yes redbacks with a bright amp or even balanced. But not a low mid heavy or dark
 
Smash said:
Yes redbacks with a bright amp or even balanced. But not a low mid heavy or dark
Click to expand...
One of the best speaker mixes I had so far was Redbacks on top with JBL D120F’s or E120’s on bottom blending so well with each other. I usually really don’t like mixing speakers, but that one was monstrous and worked so well with so many different amps
 
so, did a lot of playing, tweaking and looked up most of the suggestions here.
Thank you.

I am very willing to try new speakers/cabs (but i want to stay celestion, since most stuff i like is recorded with them). I have a mesa traditional and a marshall 1960BV which sound crazy different (16 Ohm vs 8 Ohm, different years and different cab).
The redbacks sound good from the clips, but i believe @braintheory that they will be too muddy with my Diezels.

I am yearning for Greenbacks a long time, just never sure which versions to get. You say 20W, but i guess i need to hunt down old ones???
late70s early G12-65 and late 70s early 80s G12 Vintage (without the 30) are also speakers i am interested in.

i don't like distortion pedals. i am an all tube distortion guy, so it's highpass, cleanboost, parametric EQ, or band EQ for me. Who makes a good parametric EQ?

The Mesa Mark series are actually pretty good at what i want, but even with the parametric EQ they often sound kind of boxy. but i love how you can suck out all that bass pre distortion. i makes for a really fine grit and tight distortion. But I guess you can do this to every amp with a pedal in front, which will be less slider/knobs fiddling. If i switch guitars i don't want to fiddle with knobs and just use a different pedal.

I will get a Rectifier again sooner or later, because i miss mine regularly. it has simliar "problems" than the Diezels so it's kind of an irony if i want fast clear attack. But i just love the voicing on these things (if you turn them loud enough and the fizz is bearable). But it's all relative, i don't need the amp that's best at it, just want a lil more of it right now. I even remembering liking the sag from the tube rectifier for some stuff, the Diezels sometimes feels a bit stiff especially if you keep the gain low.
Well i guess i want an amp for every mood
 
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