Torpedo Reload?

[666string]

In a real normal loudspeaker, as the ones normally used in guitar speaker cabs, the impedance is highly dynamic and dependant on the frequency. In its "normal" region this relationship is all linear while in its extreme (when the speaker is saturated) also non-linear effects needs to be modelled.

Hi 666strings, please take a look at the definition of the electrical impedance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_impedance

It is implicit that the circuit (or the cabinet) will behave differently, depending on the frequency of the input signal. This said, is you have some literature about the impedance changing with the input level, I'd be glad to read it.

Another thing are the non-linear effects. They are modeled in WoS III and Torpedo VB-101 (Overload). This said, I would recommend using this parameter wisely. The kind of distortion generated by a speaker is way different from a traditional "guitar distortion" effect.

Hello,

Thanks for clarifying what you meant by constant impedance w.r.t input level. I do know that the linear impedance characteristic Z(f) is a function of the frequency only i.e. not amplitude. However, the non-linear charact is indeed dependant on amplitude

What I don't know, and here is where I start to (at least theoretically) doubt that this could actually work. The dummy load is based on some "universal" average speaker right? So the sound you get from the amp + your own speaker system could never be the same as long as you don't model your own speaker and implement that into your dummy load.
You and all of the rest of the manufactures in this area produce a setup like:
amp + load box + speaker model i.e. you try to compensate the sound "loss" after the load box with linear and possible non-linear filters.
I bet you can come close doing this, but I think you should be more honest about the load box since it most certainly never would produce the same load as the speaker cab you're used to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical ... udspeakers
http://www.aracom-amps.com/info/attenuator.html

FYI, with the right skills you could always build your own load box and match it with the speaker cab of your choice
http://www.duncanamps.com/technical/dummyload.html


Thanks!

 

[guillaume_pille]

However, the non-linear charact is indeed dependant on amplitude

Absolutely.

What I don't know, and here is where I start to (at least theoretically) doubt that this could actually work. The dummy load is based on some "universal" average speaker right? So the sound you get from the amp + your own speaker system could never be the same as long as you don't model your own speaker and implement that into your dummy load.

You are right: the embedded impedance can't be 100% identical to your own C.A.B. I don't think we ever wrote that, if you saw it somewhere I'd be glad to correct it.

amp + load box + speaker model i.e. you try to compensate the sound "loss" after the load box with linear and possible non-linear filters.

The principle is to separate two approaches of the speaker simulation:

- it's electrical model (impedance of the loadbox)
- it's acoustical behavior (the frequency response ie the Torpedo technology)

In the real world they are somehow linked, that's not the case with our system or any loadbox system. Using an IR-derived technology like we do is not "compensate the sound loss", it's simply taking care of a part of the sound that is not directly related to the electrical impedance.

I bet you can come close doing this, but I think you should be more honest about the load box since it most certainly never would produce the same load as the speaker cab you're used to.

You should consider the relative importance of the impedance VS frequency response.

When you do extensive tests like we did (and other manufacturers as well, I guess), you can find that the participation of the modeled impedance is important, but not as important as the frequency response. So the approximate impedance we offer is one that takes care of the most important aspects of the curve.

There is always a way to get the exact impedance of your C.A.B.: using the THRU output you find on a Torpedo Live or VB-101. This way you get the exact impedance of your cabinet, but you lose the silent operation.

If you want to have a "field" experience to prove your point, you can build your own loadbox an change it's reactive parameters so you'll see what's important and what's not. you can take the Aiken design for a start, good luck to find the parts.

 

[666string]

Hi guillaume_pille

First, thank you for your honest answers.

The principle is to separate two approaches of the speaker simulation:

- it's electrical model (impedance of the loadbox)
- it's acoustical behavior (the frequency response ie the Torpedo technology)

In the real world they are somehow linked, that's not the case with our system or any loadbox system. Using an IR-derived technology like we do is not "compensate the sound loss", it's simply taking care of a part of the sound that is not directly related to the electrical impedance.

This is interesting information but I hope that you also consider the electrical model Ze(f) frequency dependant? Either way, this should mean that all speakers that you IR model has the same electrical impedance part? Isn't the inductance from the coil dependant on the position of the cone and thus one of the links between the acoustical and the electrical behaviour? This is all therotical. I don't even know how much this affects the total sound or if it does at all.

To summarize. Your total speaker model (loadbox + IR) consists of a general physical model (the average electrical impedance from most 12" speakers maybe?) connected to a parametric model mapped empirically from measurements only.

Last night I spent some time trying your C.A.B and did manage to get some nice sounds from my old MS 50W head . I do think though that the different speaker models differ too much at their default settings while in reality when switching speaker, you would expect only slight differences (assuming the same mikes, head settings, guitar etc.)

You should consider the relative importance of the impedance VS frequency response.

When you do extensive tests like we did (and other manufacturers as well, I guess), you can find that the participation of the modeled impedance is important, but not as important as the frequency response. So the approximate impedance we offer is one that takes care of the most important aspects of the curve.

Also very interesting to hear and not suprising. I'm a software guy but I know that the steep slopes of the bass resonance might be hard to implement with analog components so leaving that part to the software guys usually helps

There is always a way to get the exact impedance of your C.A.B.: using the THRU output you find on a Torpedo Live or VB-101. This way you get the exact impedance of your cabinet, but you lose the silent operation.

This is my present solution really but it totally fails at home environment, driving the rest of my family including our dog, nuts

If you want to have a "field" experience to prove your point, you can build your own loadbox an change it's reactive parameters so you'll see what's important and what's not. you can take the Aiken design for a start, good luck to find the parts.

As I said, being a software / theoretical guy I'd rather not.

One last question, does the load box part differ much between your products? I'm interesting in your Reload mainly.

Many thanks for a very interesting discussion!
~Per

 

[guillaume_pille]

This is interesting information but I hope that you also consider the electrical model Ze(f) frequency dependant?

The whole concept is included in the Impedance. Thus, the impedance is something important for the amp (because it "loads" the amp), and doesn't give an idea at all of how the cabinet sounds.

This is where the acoustical approach helps.

To summarize. Your total speaker model (loadbox + IR) consists of a general physical model (the average electrical impedance from most 12" speakers maybe?) connected to a parametric model mapped empirically from measurements only.

We can agree on that.

I do think though that the different speaker models differ too much at their default settings while in reality when switching speaker, you would expect only slight differences (assuming the same mikes, head settings, guitar etc.)

I can guarantee you that what you hear is what happens exactly. Even with the same speakers, two different cabinets can have WAY different responses.

But there is another parameter: microphones are really sensitive to their placement, and it's not possible to guarantee the placement to be 100% the same in front of two different cabinets (we will have to adjust to be right in front, and so on..). This is another variable parameter.

Also very interesting to hear and not suprising. I'm a software guy but I know that the steep slopes of the bass resonance might be hard to implement with analog components so leaving that part to the software guys usually helps

Big inductor and capacitors are always costly and hard to source.

One last question, does the load box part differ much between your products? I'm interesting in your Reload mainly.

The Reload and Torpedo Studio share a reactive loadbox with variable impedance (4,8,16 Ohms), Live has a fixed reactive impedance. They are really similar.

 

[Rogue]

The Reload and Torpedo Studio share a reactive loadbox with variable impedance (4,8,16 Ohms), Live has a fixed reactive impedance. They are really similar.

Interesting. Are they different because of the variable impedance? If so, which of the 3 is the "most accurate" (if any)?

 

[guillaume_pille]

There are some minor differences, nothing that has a real impact on the "accuracy". We design them so they stay as close as possible to that "average impedance" we were talking about earlier.

 

[romain_gril]

Pete Thorn does a great job at presenting the Torpedo Reload's features -- don't you think?

 

[Rogue]

Got mine yesterday. I am stoked. I like it a lot. Sounds fantastic.

 

[nicolasrivera]

I'm really confused by this product, i completely understand what it does but why did you guys had to take out the speaker simulation?

What other Two Notes product achieves all of what Reload offers + speaker emulation? the new Torpedo Studio? how much is that going to be? because buying the Reload and the CAB it total up to $1,395.

Where does the Torpedo LIVE fit? i mean i was planing on buying it, but with Reload out now i really don't see much benefits being that getting Reload plus the CAB that i already have will give me much more then what LIVE has to offer.

Why not consider Reload II to have the speaker emulation included for $999.99, offer it in both small and rack size and discontinue Torpedo LIVE, or name it Reload LIVE.

Im very happy that i do not have to be a slave to my desktop in order to enjoy my Torpedo Product, but it seems Reload will make me a slave is a want to enjoy the speaker emulations.

I can only imagine that Torpedo Studio will be a lot expensive then $1,395, right?

 

[Rogue]

Slave to the desk top? Well, I suppose if you don't have a speaker cabinet.

I see it as options. I now have a damn fine attenuator that I can get nice tones from my amp at a reasonable volume. Speaker emulation has its place, but it doesn't replace standing in a room with a cabinet.

As a great bonus, I can also record dead silent using IRs in the DAW. I can mix and match as many as I would want (up to 100, which is way more than I'd ever come close to using).

It's all about what you are going for. For me, I never wanted to get away from my amp and cabinet doing what it does. I did want a way to get it doing that at a reasonable volume. For silent recording, it gives me a great amp tone to the DAW for IR use.

If I needed to go FOH, I could pick up a CAB or just mic the cabinet.

For someone that is just needed a silent FOH solution with an amp, the Live is a good choice. Although it could perform well for recording too.

For silent FOH and/or silent recording with an amp, the Studio is a better choice (more options).

The Live (not sure of the Studio but probably) also has a thru, so you can still use your cab if you don't need it attenuated, but still have FOH abilities.

If you have a good preamp (or pedal board), you can use the CAB for FOH. Or recording.

So there are a plethora of options for people's needs and I'm sure I haven't touched on all of them.

For me the Reload is perfect (and I'll probably never use the guitar DI). The odds of me ever being in a place in which 0 stage volume is required is slim. Even if so, I'd just buy a CAB. A CAB and Reload wouldn't be a Studio, because the Studio can do more than one cab sim (I think) like the VB-101.

The Reload and WOS are virtually limitless for recording.

I think it's possible to see some other options in the future, and other products being discontinued. It has been suggested TN make a load only box, in which one could purchase for use with the CAB or WOS...essentially eliminating the Live. I would have opted for that, but I've got to say the Reload is a damn fine attenuator and worth it to me to get my amp with my cab doing it's thing at a volume that doesn't cause all kinds of issues.

 

[nicolasrivera]

Slave to the desk top? Well, I suppose if you don't have a speaker cabinet.

I do have and using IRs with it with my mesa head is simply amazing!.

I see it as options. I now have a damn fine attenuator that I can get nice tones from my amp at a reasonable volume. Speaker emulation has its place, but it doesn't replace standing in a room with a cabinet.

Speaker emulations is not supposed to emulate your head and ears perceiving the bounced sound of your amps from the walls, floor and ceiling.

As a great bonus, I can also record dead silent using IRs in the DAW. I can mix and match as many as I would want (up to 100, which is way more than I'd ever come close to using).

Yeah this is cool...yet don't know why but i always come back to using just one IR, been mixing them with BlendIR, maybe i'm not that good at finding the right mix of IRs yet.

It's all about what you are going for. For me, I never wanted to get away from my amp and cabinet doing what it does. I did want a way to get it doing that at a reasonable volume. For silent recording, it gives me a great amp tone to the DAW for IR use.

Well, using the Torpedo CAB has actually brought me back closer to my amp and further away from the Axe FXII most of my free time, i love hearing my Mesa amp, but up to now i have only been hearing the preamp section of it, with LIVE or ReLoad i will hear the full amp sound, but i hardly believe it will be better then using the power amp emulation of the Torpedo, its just too dam perfect.

If I needed to go FOH, I could pick up a CAB or just mic the cabinet.

I did this, since the TCAB has 2 outputs, one went FOH and the other back to the return of my map head and used the full amp as a monitor, didn't need to use i mic since the sound that went to the mixer was amazing and i had a great stage sound from the real amp.

For someone that is just needed a silent FOH solution with an amp, the Live is a good choice. Although it could perform well for recording too.

I bet i will perform amazing for recording!

For silent FOH and/or silent recording with an amp, the Studio is a better choice (more options).

Yeah, can't wait to hear more about what the studio will do.

The Live (not sure of the Studio but probably) also has a thru, so you can still use your cab if you don't need it attenuated, but still have FOH abilities.

If you have a good preamp (or pedal board), you can use the CAB for FOH. Or recording.

So there are a plethora of options for people's needs and I'm sure I haven't touched on all of them.

For me the Reload is perfect (and I'll probably never use the guitar DI). The odds of me ever being in a place in which 0 stage volume is required is slim. Even if so, I'd just buy a CAB. A CAB and Reload wouldn't be a Studio, because the Studio can do more than one cab sim (I think) like the VB-101.

The Reload and WOS are virtually limitless for recording.

I think it's possible to see some other options in the future, and other products being discontinued. It has been suggested TN make a load only box, in which one could purchase for use with the CAB or WOS...essentially eliminating the Live. I would have opted for that, but I've got to say the Reload is a damn fine attenuator and worth it to me to get my amp with my cab doing it's thing at a volume that doesn't cause all kinds of issues.

I almost bought a Bad Cat UNLEASH Attenuator when i bought my TCAB, then i saw the LIVE and told my self wait, save a bit more money and buy it.... then i heard about RELOAD and had hopes it was going to support IRs with in the unit.... maybe another unit in the future will fulfil my dream unit!

 

[Rogue]

Slave to the desk top? Well, I suppose if you don't have a speaker cabinet.

I do have and using IRs with it with my mesa head is simply amazing!.

If you have a speaker cabinet, then the Reload doesn't make you a slave to the desk top. It's an attenuator.

Are you using IRs into a guitar cabinet? That's not good.

I almost bought a Bad Cat UNLEASH Attenuator when i bought my TCAB, then i saw the LIVE and told my self wait, save a bit more money and buy it.... then i heard about RELOAD and had hopes it was going to support IRs with in the unit.... maybe another unit in the future will fulfil my dream unit!

I'm not sure what it is you are looking for. Are you wanting an attenuator to run with your cabinet and IRs to run FOH or to record? Why does the Live not do what you are looking for?

 

[nicolasrivera]

Are you using IRs into a guitar cabinet? That's not good.

Thats not good? guess you are missing great tones then.... it works for my amp like a charm, trust your ears and not what some people make you believe an IR should not be used with!.

I almost bought a Bad Cat UNLEASH Attenuator when i bought my TCAB, then i saw the LIVE and told my self wait, save a bit more money and buy it.... then i heard about RELOAD and had hopes it was going to support IRs with in the unit.... maybe another unit in the future will fulfil my dream unit!

I'm not sure what it is you are looking for. Are you wanting an attenuator to run with your cabinet and IRs to run FOH or to record? Why does the Live not do what you are looking for?

Guitar into Torpedo unit, out comes this signals.

1.-Guitar DI for DAW recording out.
2.-Preamp ONLY IR Speaker simulation out (FX Loop).
3.-Attenuated amp signal NO IR out.
4.-Attenuated amp signal WITH IR emulation line out,.
5.-Global 30 band EQ like on BlendIR.

What Torpedo unit is this flexible?

 

[Rogue]

Thats not good? guess you are missing great tones then.... it works for my amp like a charm, trust your ears and not what some people make you believe an IR should not be used with!.

I have heard IRs through a guitar cab. Unless you have some flat response speakers in there, you're rolling off too many highs.

If that's your thing, that's fine.

Guitar into Torpedo unit, out comes this signals.

1.-Guitar DI for DAW recording out.
2.-Preamp ONLY IR Speaker simulation out (FX Loop).
3.-Attenuated amp signal NO IR out.
4.-Attenuated amp signal WITH IR emulation line out,.
5.-Global 30 band EQ like on BlendIR.

What Torpedo unit is this flexible?

That's like....a super torpedo. That's a lot of something to do.

None of their units have a FX Loop. Not sure they need one due to the nature of the line outs, although the Reload would have been sweet for the Reload to have one. The only reason amps have a preamp out effects loop is because they can't have a power amp out effects loop. Since you've got a line level from the CAB, you run it to effects.

Looking at what you want to do, I'd say a Reload + CAB. Reload speaker out to cabinet, loadbox to CAB, CAB to FX, FX to FOH or monitors.

Or, since you have a Mesa and it's all preamp distortion, the MV should work fine. So a Live thru to your cabinet, the Live line out (or whatever it's called) to FX, FX to FOH or monitors.

I'm assume the Studio or VB-101 would work just as the Live would.

 

[nicolasrivera]

Thats not good? guess you are missing great tones then.... it works for my amp like a charm, trust your ears and not what some people make you believe an IR should not be used with!.

I have heard IRs through a guitar cab. Unless you have some flat response speakers in there, you're rolling off too many highs.

If that's your thing, that's fine.

Guitar into Torpedo unit, out comes this signals.

1.-Guitar DI for DAW recording out.
2.-Preamp ONLY IR Speaker simulation out (FX Loop).
3.-Attenuated amp signal NO IR out.
4.-Attenuated amp signal WITH IR emulation line out,.
5.-Global 30 band EQ like on BlendIR.

What Torpedo unit is this flexible?

That's like....a super torpedo. That's a lot of something to do.

None of their units have a FX Loop. Not sure they need one due to the nature of the line outs, although the Reload would have been sweet for the Reload to have one. The only reason amps have a preamp out effects loop is because they can't have a power amp out effects loop. Since you've got a line level from the CAB, you run it to effects.

Looking at what you want to do, I'd say a Reload + CAB. Reload speaker out to cabinet, loadbox to CAB, CAB to FX, FX to FOH or monitors.

Or, since you have a Mesa and it's all preamp distortion, the MV should work fine. So a Live thru to your cabinet, the Live line out (or whatever it's called) to FX, FX to FOH or monitors.

I'm assume the Studio or VB-101 would work just as the Live would.

IF reload had an FX loop like the BadCat Unleash has it would have been perfect for someone that already has the Torpedo CAB like me.

Maybe Two Notes could add that to the Wish List!.

 

[Rogue]

IF reload had an FX loop like the BadCat Unleash has it would have been perfect for someone that already has the Torpedo CAB like me.

Maybe Two Notes could add that to the Wish List!.

I had already suggested it to them.

Maybe version 2.

 

[79sg]

I ordered a Reload yesterday and will use with my CAB. I recently asked Two Notes about the Reload as I was also considering adding a Radial Engineering EXTC for patching in guitar pedals in my studio and will post the answer Guillaume sent to me. I hope he doesn't mind me posting here but it should be helpful to everyone asking these questions:

Reload is mono but you can have some pedals in the reamping system, no problem. If it is the option you are interested in.

Computer -> Line In Reload -> Amp Out reload -> pedals -> Inst In Reload -> Di out Reload -> microphone preamp -> computer

Of course you can do "traditional" reamping with Reload, that's one of its functions.

Torpedo Studio is different, it doesn't have instrument level (Hi-Z) inputs.

Cordialement/Sincerely,

Guillaume Pille
President | Two Notes Audio Engineering

Most of my amps have effects loops anyhow so this isn't really an issue for me. After I receive my Reload I will try the signal path described above to bring effects in after tracking. If so, then you can use the Reload for bringing effects into your session on any track, vocals, drums, etc....

 

[guillaume_pille]

Well, the Reload is just out so you can't expect a modification soon, but I note every suggestion and be sure I listen to them.

About Torpedo Studio, it doesn't have an attenuator. The attenuator technology we use in Torpedo Reload is really expensive, and coupling it with the powerful digital architecture of the Torpedo Studio would be possible and cool, but at a price most people won't accept.

Torpedo Studio will be at the same price as VB-101, meaning somewhere around 1999USD.

 

[eljodon]

I purchased a Torpedo Reload and the attenuation part sounds excellet. Also the reamping works great. One thing I don't like about it is that if I want to use it as attenuator and a DI at the same time while miking my cabs the DI section doesn't have a thru. With a regular DI box like my Radial J48 or Countryman type 85 you plug your guitar into DI in(line) and the XLR out which goes to my recording preamps(TG2,Avalon vt737sp or SSL) to record the guitar into my ProTools HD system. My DI boxes has a thru which you plug to a guitar amp so I can record the guitar"s DI and my amp's cabinet miked. The Reload's amp out in the replay section does not output my guitar signal to my amp, unless their's something wrong with it.

In my studio I like to record my guitars DI while recording whatever amp I'm using so later on I can reamp the DI guitars with different amps to get a different tone. So I don't know if that's the way the Torpedo Reload was design or there's something wrong with the one I have.Maybe is because the "match" feature wouldn't work since you play your guitar plugged to the front of the Reload so you can match it's output to the output coming from my D/A interface and going to the amp while reamping the recorded Di guitar. I really don't have any use for this feature because I've been using my ears for years to match what's going into my amps using the Radial X Amp.
I purchased the unit thinking that it would be a great time saver to have an all in one unit, but now it seems like I still have to use my DI boxes.

Maybe someone can clear this up for me. and sorry for the long post!

 

[nicolasrivera]

I purchased a Torpedo Reload and the attenuation part sounds excellet. Also the reamping works great. One thing I don't like about it is that if I want to use it as attenuator and a DI at the same time while miking my cabs the DI section doesn't have a thru. With a regular DI box like my Radial J48 or Countryman type 85 you plug your guitar into DI in(line) and the XLR out which goes to my recording preamps(TG2,Avalon vt737sp or SSL) to record the guitar into my ProTools HD system. My DI boxes has a thru which you plug to a guitar amp so I can record the guitar"s DI and my amp's cabinet miked. The Reload's amp out in the replay section does not output my guitar signal to my amp, unless their's something wrong with it.

Mmmm, this is a surprise for me because i was planing on using it a lot that way!. Maybe there is a switch or something to enable this!, i means this is something that has to be posible with such box. or isn't?