Urrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh!!!!!!!

[Zachman]

Well I just tried a different delay pedal into the Marshall VM, A Boss DD-3. I get the same noise I got with the Magic Stomp. The niose I'm hearing is... well next time you have your guitar plugged in try blowing on the pickups. This is basically the niose I hear. I'm thinking even at the -10dB setting on the loop the pedal is still getting overdriven. This is terrible because I've really grown to like the tone of the VM.

Try a lower gain 12AX7 in the loop slot

 

[badger71]

Right now I blow and it's because the fun just isn't there.

Ahhhhh....you've got the condition known as "Too much Fucking with your gear-ITIS." This obsessive-compulsive behaviour robs the musician of all chops and technique because of the eternal quest for tone, noise elimination, or the unlikely event of turning a Fender Tweed into a fire breathing death metal machine. The ONLY cure for this condition is to walk away from said pieces of gear....the only way. Clean break. In the words of Tom Lykis....Dump That Bitch.

 

[JamesPeters]

The idea of stepping down the volume before the loop (with a volume pedal or resistors) will help the effect from being overloaded with signal, but consider what's going to happen *after* the effect. You need to bring that level back up to normal (very hot) levels for the PI again. I doubt that pedal will be capable of doing so. This means say goodbye to some of your PI distortion, which is critical for that amp to get the overdrive sound you're getting.

Try the pedal in front of the amp, as several people here have recommended. I as well have used delay pedals in front of amps and liked the result; I actually prefer it. You may have to turn the effect mix on the pedal down (I use 10%-20% mix), but the sound is actually quite nice. I find it more natural, warmer and broader, more reactive, than having a "super clean sounding delay" in the loop.

Other than that, if you are absolutely insistent on keeping the delay "clean", slaving as Ralph mentioned is the only other alternative that's going to work for your tastes. So before you say "screw it" and sell the VM because its loop isn't for you, at least try the pedal in front of the amp and actually give it a chance, try different settings etc. Because I honestly doubt the Stiletto is going to work out for you. Don't ask me how I know; I just do.

 

[70strathead]

The idea of stepping down the volume before the loop (with a volume pedal or resistors) will help the effect from being overloaded with signal, but consider what's going to happen *after* the effect. You need to bring that level back up to normal (very hot) levels for the PI again. I doubt that pedal will be capable of doing so. This means say goodbye to some of your PI distortion, which is critical for that amp to get the overdrive sound you're getting.

Try the pedal in front of the amp, as several people here have recommended. I as well have used delay pedals in front of amps and liked the result; I actually prefer it. You may have to turn the effect mix on the pedal down (I use 10%-20% mix), but the sound is actually quite nice. I find it more natural, warmer and broader, more reactive, than having a "super clean sounding delay" in the loop.

Other than that, if you are absolutely insistent on keeping the delay "clean", slaving as Ralph mentioned is the only other alternative that's going to work for your tastes. So before you say "screw it" and sell the VM because its loop isn't for you, at least try the pedal in front of the amp and actually give it a chance, try different settings etc. Because I honestly doubt the Stiletto is going to work out for you. Don't ask me how I know; I just do.

I don't know what the VM nor JVM loops are like, but if they are anything like the DSL100/50, I've used echo's in that loop successfully without a hitch. However, I only use analog Echoplex's and a Hughes/Kettner Replex..they're warmer and have the head room. I think Ralph's suggestion is the pro way and best bang for your buck/time and energy at this point though.

 

[JamesPeters]

I don't know what the VM nor JVM loops are like, but if they are anything like the DSL100/50, I've used echo's in that loop successfully without a hitch.

This isn't about the loop on the VM as such; it's doing its job just fine. The issue is that the amp has a PPIMV. That means everything in the loop is being hit with a lot of volume, the effect has to be able to handle that and provide that volume back after it to the PI so that it distorts as it did before (which is unlikely in itself), and then even if that works out all the effects in the loop will have distortion after it anyway.

In this case, using effects before the amp makes the most sense unless he's going to do a slave setup. A loop on an amp such as this makes very little sense unless it's going to be used for cleaner sounds only (and the amp is obviously not aimed at people looking for cleaner sounds, especially since it has a PPIMV in the first place). Between that and the reverb, I have no idea what Marshall was thinking when they did this.

 

[yngzaklynch]

Well the Mesa Stiletto came in earlier than expected!!!!!!! So tomorrow I will make the pain in the ass trek to A/B the two amps.

 

[70strathead]

I don't know what the VM nor JVM loops are like, but if they are anything like the DSL100/50, I've used echo's in that loop successfully without a hitch.

This isn't about the loop on the VM as such; it's doing its job just fine. The issue is that the amp has a PPIMV. That means everything in the loop is being hit with a lot of volume, the effect has to be able to handle that and provide that volume back after it to the PI so that it distorts as it did before (which is unlikely in itself), and then even if that works out all the effects in the loop will have distortion after it anyway.

In this case, using effects before the amp makes the most sense unless he's going to do a slave setup. A loop on an amp such as this makes very little sense unless it's going to be used for cleaner sounds only (and the amp is obviously not aimed at people looking for cleaner sounds, especially since it has a PPIMV in the first place). Between that and the reverb, I have no idea what Marshall was thinking when they did this.

Interesting, did not know that. that does suck. The Slave setup is what I would do in that case for sure.

good luck

 

[yngzaklynch]

JP so there isn't really a processor or pedal that will work well in the loop?

I told the sales guy I want a delay pedal and a Boss SD-1 in the loud room so I can A/B both amp and check the fx loop out on the Stiletto.

Steve Dawson, VM designer. said he tried a Boss DD-6 in the loop with no issues. Well I tried the DD-3 and Magic Stomp and I had issues. Not sure what to make of that.

 

[Gainfreak]

Steve Dawson, VM designer. said he tried a Boss DD-6 in the loop with no issues. Well I tried the DD-3 and Magic Stomp and I had issues. Not sure what to make of that.

I can tell you what to make of it..... How do you know what Steve Dawson considers Issues or a non issue when it comes to the loop in his amp? He might have a different idea of what works and what doesn't.

James pretty much laid it out for you.

 

[dstroud]

JP so there isn't really a processor or pedal that will work well in the loop?

I told the sales guy I want a delay pedal and a Boss SD-1 in the loud room so I can A/B both amp and check the fx loop out on the Stiletto.

Steve Dawson, VM designer. said he tried a Boss DD-6 in the loop with no issues. Well I tried the DD-3 and Magic Stomp and I had issues. Not sure what to make of that.

I think the problem is you have distortion occuring after the loop. For a delay to sound "good" the delay needs to occur after all the distortion - that's how most amps are. In the VM, you have preamp gain, then the loop, then some pi distortion - so that distortion after the loop in the pi is what is creating the unwanted sound.

 

[yngzaklynch]

Steve Dawson, VM designer. said he tried a Boss DD-6 in the loop with no issues. Well I tried the DD-3 and Magic Stomp and I had issues. Not sure what to make of that.

I can tell you what to make of it..... How do you know what Steve Dawson considers Issues or a non issue when it comes to the loop in his amp? He might have a different idea of what works and what doesn't.

James pretty much laid it out for you.

Can't argue. I guess I want thing to be just so and with the VM they aren't.

 

[Greazygeo]

OK, so I messed with the VM and a cheap Ibanez delay today. The loop has a pad switch, so its not neccessary to make the pad cable. I put it on the -10 setting and tried the loop in and out a few times. I didnt hear any noise issues either way. Using the delay there is a tiny bit of that thru the front end kinda garble thing, but just a tiny bit. I ran the pedal thru the front and just like every other time I try one that way, it sounds like shit. I tried it with the master on 10 and detail @2:00 and body at noon and also with the master down low and the delay sounded pretty much the same.

 

[yngzaklynch]

I'm just thinking that the VM's loop isn't going to do any delay pedal justice.

 

[cibyl]

Well the Mesa Stiletto came in earlier than expected!!!!!!! So tomorrow I will make the pain in the ass trek to A/B the two amps.

I was just gonna say - the only cure for this is the Ace.

 

[yngzaklynch]

Well Bill I had their loud room. A/B'd both the VM(boosted with an SD-1) and the Stiletto fresh out the box. I came home with the VM! While there I tried a DD-3 and DD-6 in the VM's loop. Same old niose. I did notice that with the DD-6 the niose was a bit less for whatever reason. Still I couldn't give up the boosted tone of this amp. I'll just have to deal.

 

[Gainfreak]

Well Bill I had their loud room. A/B'd both the VM(boosted with an SD-1) and the Stiletto fresh out the box. I came home with the VM! While there I tried a DD-3 and DD-6 in the VM's loop. Same old niose. I did notice that with the DD-6 the niose was a bit less for whatever reason. Still I couldn't give up the boosted tone of this amp. I'll just have to deal.

This is actually the first time where I truly feel that you made a decision based on actually trying something out instead of counting on a theory that you had in your head or tricking yourself into thinking that you can get it to work later on.

all the best!

FWIW, if for any reason if you start jonesing for delay one day, set the amp clean and use a boost pedal /overdirve and delay before the amp. It will be a temporary fix
but the delay will work better on a non distorted amp.

 

[yngzaklynch]

Well Bill I had their loud room. A/B'd both the VM(boosted with an SD-1) and the Stiletto fresh out the box. I came home with the VM! While there I tried a DD-3 and DD-6 in the VM's loop. Same old niose. I did notice that with the DD-6 the niose was a bit less for whatever reason. Still I couldn't give up the boosted tone of this amp. I'll just have to deal.

This is actually the first time where I truly feel that you made a decision based on actually trying something out instead of counting on a theory that you had in your head or tricking yourself into thinking that you can get it to work later on.

all the best!

FWIW, if for any reason if you start jonesing for delay one day, set the amp clean and use a boost pedal /overdirve and delay before the amp. It will be a temporary fix
but the delay will work better on a non distorted amp.

Ralph maybe I am making progress towards logical decision making

 

[Gainfreak]

Well Bill I had their loud room. A/B'd both the VM(boosted with an SD-1) and the Stiletto fresh out the box. I came home with the VM! While there I tried a DD-3 and DD-6 in the VM's loop. Same old niose. I did notice that with the DD-6 the niose was a bit less for whatever reason. Still I couldn't give up the boosted tone of this amp. I'll just have to deal.

This is actually the first time where I truly feel that you made a decision based on actually trying something out instead of counting on a theory that you had in your head or tricking yourself into thinking that you can get it to work later on.

all the best!

FWIW, if for any reason if you start jonesing for delay one day, set the amp clean and use a boost pedal /overdirve and delay before the amp. It will be a temporary fix
but the delay will work better on a non distorted amp.

Ralph maybe I am making progress towards logical decision making

Well Knock it off then

 

[JamesPeters]

Now that you've realized the VM is for you, consider the slaving setup idea.

You don't need to use a Hotplate or other attenuator for this either, as long as you are going to have a "wet/dry" setup (one cab handles the dry signal, another handles the effected signal). You'd still need a poweramp to handle the "wet" signal and another cab, but an attenuator (in the common sense of the word) isn't necessary.

The chain would work as such:

guitar->amp-> (this is where it splits into a "Y", at the amp's output jacks)

"dry": your normal speaker cab

"wet": simple device to reduce the amp's output signal level, effects device, separate poweramp, separate cab

The "simple device to reduce the amp's output signal level" is really just that, a pedal sized box with a resistor and a pot in it (and a couple jacks). It's like the "slave out" on a Mark IV or SLO, but you'd just have it made in an external box. I made one for myself to feed my mixer so that I could listen to my amp as normal through the speaker cab, but record a signal tapped off the output of the amp and send that to my sound card (for later adding speaker sims in software).

As long as your amp will still be connected as normal to a speaker cab for its "dry" side, the "wet" side works just fine without an attenuator. The amp doesn't need a second load (which an attenuator would provide) in this case, because the "dry" cab is still being used. The "slave out box" has a load which is around 10K, which in parallel with a regular speaker cab on the output of your amp won't change the overall load the amp sees to a significant level. So one cable goes from the amp's speaker outs to this "slave out box" (to feed the "wet" setup) and the other cable goes from the amp's speaker outs to the "dry" cab.

You can even eliminate the need for a second cab if you want, by having your speaker cab wired in two halves (if it already isn't, that is), and sending the "wet" signal to one half and the "dry" signal to the other half. This means all you'd need is this "slave out box" and another poweramp. That's probably a lot less expensive an option than you realized.

 

[yngzaklynch]

JP down the road thats certainly something to consider but since we had a 2nd child there is little guitar space in the house. So for now I'm gonna have to go the Zakk Wylde route. Wah, Boost, and sometimes chorus. Actually I'm pretty thrilled with my basic tone. So now the big thing is I get my chops back to a decent level. Right now calling me a hack would be a compliment