Water heater went out

  • Thread starter Thread starter Exo-metal
  • Start date Start date
voodooradio1 said:
You don’t need to thread pipe to bring a new fuel source in. Properly sized soft copper is what I use for that. If you are unfamiliar with gas systems, and tankless water heaters, hire a pro and thank me later. When it comes to tankless heaters, Navien is the brand I go to first, and Rinnai if the other isn’t available. Can’t recall the warranty length for Rinnai off the top of my head, but 10 years or more. The Navien has a 15 year warranty on heat exchanger for the average residential install. Rinnai, Navien, and all of the majors will not honor a warranty if installed by an unlicensed person. At my price here in the southeast, the equipment and material run from $1700 -$2000. That is with my pro discount at a local supplier, so would be more for the average guy walking in off of the street. A substantial amount to not warranty. Some of my competitors charge anywhere from 8k-10 for material and labor. I charge 6k-8k, and more if gas has to be upsized. And it usually does, as a tankless is 199,000 btu, and if not sized correctly will flash error codes more often than it functions. It really is the type of thing that if you go into it trying to save money by DYI, you wil need a pro to straighten out when you are done. No one ever comes out ahead spending money on the same project twice. A pro will understand code, and bring everything into code compliance as well, which is a plus if you ever sell. If you go DYI, just get a 50 gallon electric Bradford White high recovery tank. And don’t hook it up with shark bite fittings. There are reliable methods that don’t require threading or soldering. I can steer you in the right direction for that if you decide to install yourself. Feel free to pm me.
Click to expand...
Guess it depends on the size. Soft copper ( 3/8 or 1/2) is too small for a lot of the units I see. The one I saw yesterday was 1 1/4 trac pipe.
 
Floyd Eye said:
Guess it depends on the size. Soft copper ( 3/8 or 1/2) is too small for a lot of the units I see. The one I saw yesterday was 1 1/4 trac pipe.
Click to expand...
Ive never used soft copper to hook one up and I think the smallest diameter pipe I used was 3/4'
Actually, the only soft copper Ive used, and Ive used a fuck ton, was to hook up propane tanks to the house. Inside the house was usually black iron.
However, its been 7 or 8 years since I last installed one so my memory could be a little foggy.
 
dcburn mk.ii said:
Ive never used soft copper to hook one up and I think the smallest diameter pipe I used was 3/4'
Actually, the only soft copper Ive used, and Ive used a fuck ton, was to hook up propane tanks to the house. Inside the house was usually black iron.
However, its been 7 or 8 years since I last installed one so my memory could be a little foggy.
Click to expand...
Same. I have a 3/8 line running from a reg set outside for my stove ( propane). I have three 100 lb pigs. Takes about one a year for the stove. Everything else is electric.

It's not code to run soft copper for NG. At least for the gas company to do it. Private fuel runs I don't know. I would never run any NG fuel run that wasn't black pipe myself.
 
Floyd Eye said:
Same. I have a 3/8 line running from a reg set outside for my stove ( propane). I have three 100 lb pigs. Takes about one a year for the stove. Everything else is electric.

It's not code to run soft copper for NG. At least for the gas company to do it. Private fuel runs I don't know. I would never run any NG fuel run that wasn't black pipe myself.
Click to expand...
When I was making my decision last March, I have a black iron run that is capped off 3' from where the water heater sits.
The gas comes into the basement probably 4' away from where the water heater sits.
Still, I run electric due to ease and convenience and cost.

You're absolutely right about the gas consumption of tankless/on-demand.
 
Floyd Eye said:
Guess it depends on the size. Soft copper ( 3/8 or 1/2) is too small for a lot of the units I see. The one I saw yesterday was 1 1/4 trac pipe.
Click to expand...
It depends on the length of the run, and the type of gas system.
 
voodooradio1 said:
It depends on the length of the run, and the type of gas system.
Click to expand...
Maybe the type of gas system but not the length of the fuel run. Pressure is pressure. Typical residential fuel runs are regulated to 7” water column. Length of run is irrelevant. Load is not. With NG.
 
voodooradio1 said:
You don’t need to thread pipe to bring a new fuel source in. Properly sized soft copper is what I use for that. If you are unfamiliar with gas systems, and tankless water heaters, hire a pro and thank me later. When it comes to tankless heaters, Navien is the brand I go to first, and Rinnai if the other isn’t available. Can’t recall the warranty length for Rinnai off the top of my head, but 10 years or more. The Navien has a 15 year warranty on heat exchanger for the average residential install. Rinnai, Navien, and all of the majors will not honor a warranty if installed by an unlicensed person. At my price here in the southeast, the equipment and material run from $1700 -$2000. That is with my pro discount at a local supplier, so would be more for the average guy walking in off of the street. A substantial amount to not warranty. Some of my competitors charge anywhere from 8k-10 for material and labor. I charge 6k-8k, and more if gas has to be upsized. And it usually does, as a tankless is 199,000 btu, and if not sized correctly will flash error codes more often than it functions. It really is the type of thing that if you go into it trying to save money by DYI, you wil need a pro to straighten out when you are done. No one ever comes out ahead spending money on the same project twice. A pro will understand code, and bring everything into code compliance as well, which is a plus if you ever sell. If you go DYI, just get a 50 gallon electric Bradford White high recovery tank. And don’t hook it up with shark bite fittings. There are reliable methods that don’t require threading or soldering. I can steer you in the right direction for that if you decide to install yourself. Feel free to pm me.
Click to expand...
I changed mine out (40 gallon electric) and put shark bites on it, the pipe is that grey poly crap that I’ve been expecting to have trouble with for 10 years, is it unadvisable to put shark bites on poly?
It’s been on there for 4 years
 
Floyd Eye said:
Same. I have a 3/8 line running from a reg set outside for my stove ( propane). I have three 100 lb pigs. Takes about one a year for the stove. Everything else is electric.

It's not code to run soft copper for NG. At least for the gas company to do it. Private fuel runs I don't know. I would never run any NG fuel run that wasn't black pipe myself.
Click to expand...
It is if you follow IPC, Ifgc. Don’t know where you are located, and there may be local addendums to your code, but soft copper is used throughout the south eastern US, as far as residential. Pretty much the standard. I much prefer it as there are less joints, and less labor, and less expense to the homeowner
 
Floyd Eye said:
Maybe the type of gas system but not the length of the fuel run. Pressure is pressure. Typical residential fuel runs are regulated to 7” water column. Length of run is irrelevant. Load is not. With NG.
Click to expand...
A high pressure gas system has a water column of around 11”, and length of run is not irrelevant. It is an important part of calculating size, along with load.
 
Floyd Eye said:
It's not code to run soft copper for NG. At least for the gas company to do it. Private fuel runs I don't know. I would never run any NG fuel run that wasn't black pipe myself.
Click to expand...
My years in propane, we always had a rule to not run soft copper more than ten feet.
You can bury the soft copper, but we would use the yellow poly underground.

I actually went to a gas call once, customer complaining they could smell gas pretty badly.
Took about a second to see the dead line of grass roughly a foot wide from 320 gallon torperdo style tank to the regulator mounted on the house.

Start digging a little and ended up pulling the entire length of copper out.
The ground had eaten away at it making it look like Swiss cheese...
 
voodooradio1 said:
It is if you follow IPC, Ifgc. Don’t know where you are located, and there may be local addendums to your code, but soft copper is used throughout the south eastern US, as far as residential. Pretty much the standard. I much prefer it as there are less joints, and less labor, and less expense to the homeowner
Click to expand...
Not an expert on code, but in NY we would hook tanks at house, 120 gallon tanks with soft copper.
Longer runs in buried poly.
Didn't run soft copper inside.

Honestly was never a fan of burying copper.
Of course, there were times that 50' roll wouldn't have made it the 51' you would of course needed and who's putting a JIC fitting underground anyways?
 
Last edited:
voodooradio1 said:
A high pressure gas system has a water column of around 11”, and length of run is not irrelevant. It is an important part of calculating size, along with load.
Click to expand...
Maybe commercially. Like in factories or large commercial buildings. Even in residences with 2lb meters and multiple regulators ain’t no one measuring out how long the fucking fuel run is.
 
dcburn mk.ii said:
Not an expert on code, but in NY we would hook tanks at house, 120 gallon tanks with soft copper.
Longer runs in buried poly.
Didn't run soft copper inside.

Honestly was never a fan of burying copper.
Of course, there were times that 50' roll wouldn't have made it the 51' you would of course needed and who's putting a JIC fitting underground anyways?
Click to expand...
I have no clue about code on propane tanks. Plenty of them, mine included, have soft copper service lines.
 
Almost all my work for the last 2 years has involved removing copper service lines and replacing them with poly.

For clarity:

Service line runs from the main to the riser on the side of your house. The size ( not length) of the line is dependent on the load. 95% of residential structures will either be 1/2” or 1”. We are currently removing old 3/8” lines and ALL copper and bare steel.

Fuel run is everything from the meter in. All this is the responsibility of the customer. As long as it’s safe and holds pressure I don’t have an issue with it. Your local authorities may, depending on what you have going on.


Today I am doing what we call a copper pigtail. The houses around here that were built between about 1970 and 1985 have copper risers. That is the pipe that comes out of the ground next your house is a casing. Inside is a piece of usually 1/2” copper anywhere from 2’ to 14’ long. At which point it is coupled to a poly service line. This is underground. I have to to remove the riser and copper pigtail and replace it with a new plastic riser/ service line. Then rebuild the meter set, replace the meter and check and relight all appliances. We are not allowed to direct bury copper, period.

Most of my work is residential. Diameter of the service line matters. Length of the fuel run is not relevant. Fuel run material is not relevant UNLESS ITS SOFT COPPER. We cannot restore service with soft copper fuel runs.
 
I have tankless here. Had to replace it, bought a cheap one from amazon; turn of the water, turn of the electricity, easy to remove and install myself; no big tank to burst, drain or move. I threw the old one out in the trash vs tanking a tank to the dump.
 
I forgot to mention. Almost all fuel runs are either 3/4” or 1”. Usually black pipe but sometimes hard copper.
 
So should I go tankless or not? My squat 40 electric is due to go out. Already replaced an element at least once….. my brother in law is a contractor so he can install it for warranty purposes. Besides I don’t fuck with gas lines. I don’t have the tools for it.
 
JackBootedThug said:
So should I go tankless or not? My squat 40 electric is due to go out. Already replaced an element at least once….. my brother in law is a contractor so he can install it for warranty purposes. Besides I don’t fuck with gas lines. I don’t have the tools for it.
Click to expand...
If you’re going with gas and one unit is enough for your needs I say go for it. If you are all electric there’s no point. You would definitely need cascading units to get it to temperature and you aren’t going to save any money. If you have the room and the need you can do two (gas) units each going to separate fixtures but you just doubled your maintenance.

By the way, these things need to be cleaned. They’re not maintenance free.
 
Thanks Floyd… yeah one unit and gas. Any recommendations on size? 5 gpm or higher?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top