Copperhead
New member
blackba":3ashm3x7 said:
Best compromise IMO.
What is the deal with companies claiming - True-Bypass !??
- Thread starter Kiteboarder
- Start date
Best compromise IMO.
RockStarNick
Active member
ed the yak":2tz2z22y said:
Amen to this. Sometimes you don't even need one at the end....
But I run an Axe F-X up front as my buffer, then it's a clear path after that with all TB pedals.
NOTE: The Digitech hardwire pedals ARE true bypass. (as is the Korg Pitchblack). they use a relay, which can yield a true bypass.
Kiteboarder
New member
Copperhead":j2o6glr5 said:
You could've not said that better. I keep saying to myself, I want to reduce the size of my pedalboard (which isn't big to start with, only 8-10 pedals) but then, I'm like... I can't get rid of this flanger, I don't use it for every song, but I like it every once in a while. Same goes for my EVH Phaser. So, what I'm doing is re-thinking things to find the best combination. I'm definitely adding a looper to use for the offending pedals. But I might go with only a single loop and have any offending pedals share the same loop.
Copperhead
New member
Yeah, I think looper is the way to go. I'm still in the honeymoon stage of my Pedal Switcher, pretty much solved my problems.
Kiteboarder
New member
RockStarNick...
I figured Digitech was using some kind of relay. The only problem with that is that unless you are electronic savvy, you are just going to have to trust them. With a traditional mechanical DPDT switch, all you have to do is look inside.
Still, I'm enjoying my 2 new Hardwire pedals. So, as confusing as it might be, props must go to Digitech for rethinking things and going unconventional.
I figured Digitech was using some kind of relay. The only problem with that is that unless you are electronic savvy, you are just going to have to trust them. With a traditional mechanical DPDT switch, all you have to do is look inside.
Still, I'm enjoying my 2 new Hardwire pedals. So, as confusing as it might be, props must go to Digitech for rethinking things and going unconventional.
Kiteboarder
New member
I read the article about the "hall of shame - The Truth" Wow! Very good article. I'm telling you this... I'm dissecting any pedal I buy from now on to make sure they are not feeding me crap. I don't mind if a pedal has a good buffer system. That's great, and I could use it that way to drive long cables, if it's transparent enough. But I better be told about. I don't like companies feeding me sh1te to sell me their stuff. At the end of the day, if you don't like to think and use your head, you'll believe whatever you are told.
The author seems to approve of the Digitech Hardwires. (Although he has yet to dissect them) And well, it seems that if Digitech was attempting to really create some ground-breaking pedals they would do it right, and clean. Instead, of being exposed later on, like it has happened with so many companies that have claimed their stuff is TB. Now, my knowledge of electronics might be limited, but I'm savvy enough at learning stuff quick, that I can figure this out. Still, what I understand about relays is that they are electronic switches. I'm used to seeing bigger ones (in cars for example) so the ones in the Hardwires must really be small to fit in there.
The author seems to approve of the Digitech Hardwires. (Although he has yet to dissect them) And well, it seems that if Digitech was attempting to really create some ground-breaking pedals they would do it right, and clean. Instead, of being exposed later on, like it has happened with so many companies that have claimed their stuff is TB. Now, my knowledge of electronics might be limited, but I'm savvy enough at learning stuff quick, that I can figure this out. Still, what I understand about relays is that they are electronic switches. I'm used to seeing bigger ones (in cars for example) so the ones in the Hardwires must really be small to fit in there.
thiswaythatway
Well-known member
ruso":1bc05nwc said:chode7":1bc05nwc said:It's like the term "real-time". No shit? I'm AMAZED.Just another marketing buzz-word. My current favorite non guitar related buzz-word is drinkability. Bud Lite throws that word around with some bs %'s to sell their rat piss and it works for them. *Sigh* I can't wait to see what lies in store for the coming 'Bowl.
Heheh... for some reason when I read that, this popped into my head:
That was brilliant. The way that he could memorize stuff like that and present it in a funny way was the best.
saxxamafone
Well-known member
Bypass is killer!! Can definately hear the difference
axess electronics state it best
Includes the same high quality Op-Amp based buffer circuit that is in our BS2 Buffer/Splitter which is both low-noise and musical. Don’t let other’s try to deceive you, nothing is transparent !!!
axess electronics state it best
Includes the same high quality Op-Amp based buffer circuit that is in our BS2 Buffer/Splitter which is both low-noise and musical. Don’t let other’s try to deceive you, nothing is transparent !!!
RockStarNick
Active member
Ok I'm gonna rant for a minute. 
The statement that True Bypass degrades your tone worse than a buffer is a generalized statement.
Lets take a look at an average players setup.
Guitar > 20 Foot Cable > 5 Pedals > 20 Foot cable > Amp.
1. If ALL of his 5 pedals are true-bypass, then that means that his signal has to travel 40+ feet from guitar to amp. Will that sound worse than 10' of cable plugged straight in? Absolutely.
2. If 2-3 of his pedals are buffered pedals, with marginal-quality buffers in them, then his signal has to travel 20 feet to the board, THEN gets a nice boost from the buffers. However, the it's re-buffered 2 more times after that. Will that sound as good and as pure as a 10' cable plugged straight in? no way. You're gonna lose some repsonse, and some feel, in the sound. To me, it feels A LOT less lively.
3. If you have a QUALITY buffer before 5 TRUE bypass pedals in the pedalboard, then that means your signal has to travel 20' to the board, then gets a boost from the buffer, and then it has a clear, pure, unobstructed path to the amp. THIS is the optimal way to go, in my opinion. Does it sound AS good as a 10' cable straight in? No... but damn close.
What it comes down to is: can YOU hear a difference, and do you even care? I hear a difference, for sure. And I do care. So, I go with option #3. If I'm plugged into 3-4 boss/ibanez/etc pedals, my dry clean tone sucks. It sounds dull, and feels lifeless and flat.
My signal now is: Guitar > Axess BS2 Buffer > Korg Pitchblack (true bypass via relay) > Crybaby Classic (true bypass: DPDT no LED) > Boss CE2 (rehoused into an MXR enclosure, mechanical true bypass) > EVH Phase 90 (rehoused into new enclosure, mechanical true bypass) > AMP
The statement that True Bypass degrades your tone worse than a buffer is a generalized statement.
Lets take a look at an average players setup.
Guitar > 20 Foot Cable > 5 Pedals > 20 Foot cable > Amp.
1. If ALL of his 5 pedals are true-bypass, then that means that his signal has to travel 40+ feet from guitar to amp. Will that sound worse than 10' of cable plugged straight in? Absolutely.
2. If 2-3 of his pedals are buffered pedals, with marginal-quality buffers in them, then his signal has to travel 20 feet to the board, THEN gets a nice boost from the buffers. However, the it's re-buffered 2 more times after that. Will that sound as good and as pure as a 10' cable plugged straight in? no way. You're gonna lose some repsonse, and some feel, in the sound. To me, it feels A LOT less lively.
3. If you have a QUALITY buffer before 5 TRUE bypass pedals in the pedalboard, then that means your signal has to travel 20' to the board, then gets a boost from the buffer, and then it has a clear, pure, unobstructed path to the amp. THIS is the optimal way to go, in my opinion. Does it sound AS good as a 10' cable straight in? No... but damn close.
What it comes down to is: can YOU hear a difference, and do you even care? I hear a difference, for sure. And I do care. So, I go with option #3. If I'm plugged into 3-4 boss/ibanez/etc pedals, my dry clean tone sucks. It sounds dull, and feels lifeless and flat.
My signal now is: Guitar > Axess BS2 Buffer > Korg Pitchblack (true bypass via relay) > Crybaby Classic (true bypass: DPDT no LED) > Boss CE2 (rehoused into an MXR enclosure, mechanical true bypass) > EVH Phase 90 (rehoused into new enclosure, mechanical true bypass) > AMP
RockStarNick
Active member
Continued: Relays.
This is not the best technical explanation, but think of a relay as a small 3PDT switch that is activated ELECTRONICALLY, instead of by a pushbutton.
And in the case of the hardwire, you're stepping on the pedal, which clicks a small tactile switch, which sends an electronic signal to the relay, which then opens or closes.
And in the case of the Digitech Hardwires and Korg Pitchblack, their reasoning for using it is pretty simple: Those blue 3PDT switches are basically pieces of sh*t, and they break ALL the time. And they can't afford to use the nice black Fulltone ones. Lord knows where those blue ones are made. I've had 2 of them fail on me, in pedals that were almost brand new. They'd have people sending back pedals left and right.
The relays that they use are probably cheaper AND more reliable than a 3PDT switch, and can last alot longer, and give the option of switching to a buffered signal if wanted (i.e. the hardwire delays, which can be shifted to have delay "Trails"...)
This is not the best technical explanation, but think of a relay as a small 3PDT switch that is activated ELECTRONICALLY, instead of by a pushbutton.
And in the case of the hardwire, you're stepping on the pedal, which clicks a small tactile switch, which sends an electronic signal to the relay, which then opens or closes.
And in the case of the Digitech Hardwires and Korg Pitchblack, their reasoning for using it is pretty simple: Those blue 3PDT switches are basically pieces of sh*t, and they break ALL the time. And they can't afford to use the nice black Fulltone ones. Lord knows where those blue ones are made. I've had 2 of them fail on me, in pedals that were almost brand new. They'd have people sending back pedals left and right.
The relays that they use are probably cheaper AND more reliable than a 3PDT switch, and can last alot longer, and give the option of switching to a buffered signal if wanted (i.e. the hardwire delays, which can be shifted to have delay "Trails"...)
blackba
Well-known member
RockStarNick":1v6z8ejs said:Ok I'm gonna rant for a minute.
The statement that True Bypass degrades your tone worse than a buffer is a generalized statement.
Lets take a look at an average players setup.
Guitar > 20 Foot Cable > 5 Pedals > 20 Foot cable > Amp.
1. If ALL of his 5 pedals are true-bypass, then that means that his signal has to travel 40+ feet from guitar to amp. Will that sound worse than 10' of cable plugged straight in? Absolutely.
2. If 2-3 of his pedals are buffered pedals, with marginal-quality buffers in them, then his signal has to travel 20 feet to the board, THEN gets a nice boost from the buffers. However, the it's re-buffered 2 more times after that. Will that sound as good and as pure as a 10' cable plugged straight in? no way. You're gonna lose some repsonse, and some feel, in the sound. To me, it feels A LOT less lively.
3. If you have a QUALITY buffer before 5 TRUE bypass pedals in the pedalboard, then that means your signal has to travel 20' to the board, then gets a boost from the buffer, and then it has a clear, pure, unobstructed path to the amp. THIS is the optimal way to go, in my opinion. Does it sound AS good as a 10' cable straight in? No... but damn close.
What it comes down to is: can YOU hear a difference, and do you even care? I hear a difference, for sure. And I do care. So, I go with option #3. If I'm plugged into 3-4 boss/ibanez/etc pedals, my dry clean tone sucks. It sounds dull, and feels lifeless and flat.
My signal now is: Guitar > Axess BS2 Buffer > Korg Pitchblack (true bypass via relay) > Crybaby Classic (true bypass: DPDT no LED) > Boss CE2 (rehoused into an MXR enclosure, mechanical true bypass) > EVH Phase 90 (rehoused into new enclosure, mechanical true bypass) > AMP
Interesting analysis. You got the main things, but I had a few additions. If your amp has an effects loop, you add cable there although its after the preamp in the amp. Also with a pedal board I use a shorter cable from the guitar to the pedal board than if I went into the amp directly.
For my setup I use a 12foot cab into my pedal board, then 15 foot back to the amp, than 20Foot to loop in and 15 foot out from the loop. If I were to go straight in I would use a 20foot cable.
I would like to try one of those Axess Buffers and see if I notice a difference. My pre amp pedals are Wah (TB) --> Korg DT-10 (buffer) -- > Maxon OD-808 (Buffer) [Sometimes I use another TB overdrive here in place of the OD-808) --> Hermida Mosferatu --> Marshall Silver jubilee 2553
RockStarNick
Active member
Theoretically, if you plugged a 40' cable from the FX loop send, into the FX loop return, of a GOOD, buffered effects loop, it should sound fine.
But, if you place a buffered pedal in that loop, that has a less than stellar bypass, you're gonna hear that tone suck constantly.
The ONLY reason I'm using a Boss DD20 in MY loop, is because on my Mod50, it's a true paralell loop, so my dry signal is kept pure 100% of the time, and my Boss DD20 is set to 100% wet, and mixed back in with the dry signal, via the loop.
Personally, I wouldn't trust a pedal with a buffered bypass in a serial loop. I think it would suck a TON of tone and feel out of the signal.
But that's just me, and I'm a total True Bypass Signal Purity nazi...
and "good enough" usually isn't good enough for me.
For the most part, with this giant debate of True Bypass or not, its more of a case of FEEL rather than HEARING the difference. Yeah, if the pedal robs some of your highs, you can add it back in on your amp. But it will FEEL different. At least to me.
But, if you place a buffered pedal in that loop, that has a less than stellar bypass, you're gonna hear that tone suck constantly.
The ONLY reason I'm using a Boss DD20 in MY loop, is because on my Mod50, it's a true paralell loop, so my dry signal is kept pure 100% of the time, and my Boss DD20 is set to 100% wet, and mixed back in with the dry signal, via the loop.
Personally, I wouldn't trust a pedal with a buffered bypass in a serial loop. I think it would suck a TON of tone and feel out of the signal.
But that's just me, and I'm a total True Bypass Signal Purity nazi...
and "good enough" usually isn't good enough for me. For the most part, with this giant debate of True Bypass or not, its more of a case of FEEL rather than HEARING the difference. Yeah, if the pedal robs some of your highs, you can add it back in on your amp. But it will FEEL different. At least to me.
Kiteboarder
New member
Nick, you are now my hero! That was a great breakdown. I fully agree with you on that one.
The modifications I'm making on my pedalboard are aimed to achieve that sort of setup. I do use a couple more pedals (about 10) so it's a bit more tricky. But doable.
At the moment this is what I've got (possible replacements in parenthesis)(and True-Bypass labelled "TB")
10 or 20 foot cable>Boss TU-2 (looking to replace it with TB Turbo Tuner)>Keeley Modded TB RAT2>Keeley Compressor TB>VOX V848 Clyde Wah TB>Ibanez TS808 (not TB - need to mod, or can keep as my main buffer)>EVH Phaser (need to mod, or put in TB loop), Ibanez FL9 Flanger (need to mod, or put in TB loop), Ibanez CS-9 Stereo Chorus (need to mod, or put in TB loop, possibly gets replaced with a Maxon TB Chorus or a Hardwire chorus)>Ibanez AD9 Analog Delay (just got replaced with an MXR Carbon Copy, supposedly TB)>Hardwire Delay TB>Hardwire Reverb TB (only used for my Eggie Rebel as my Mesa Lonestar has spring reverb.)>Lehle Little Dual Amp Switcher (relay TB)>10 or 20 foot cables to 2 amps.
I've thought about getting rid of the Phaser more than once, but I do like it sometimes. And the Flanger, I only use sometimes, but I like to sometimes add a little when doing crescendos right before a song's main chorus, so I don't think I can get rid of that one.
The modifications I'm making on my pedalboard are aimed to achieve that sort of setup. I do use a couple more pedals (about 10) so it's a bit more tricky. But doable.
At the moment this is what I've got (possible replacements in parenthesis)(and True-Bypass labelled "TB")
10 or 20 foot cable>Boss TU-2 (looking to replace it with TB Turbo Tuner)>Keeley Modded TB RAT2>Keeley Compressor TB>VOX V848 Clyde Wah TB>Ibanez TS808 (not TB - need to mod, or can keep as my main buffer)>EVH Phaser (need to mod, or put in TB loop), Ibanez FL9 Flanger (need to mod, or put in TB loop), Ibanez CS-9 Stereo Chorus (need to mod, or put in TB loop, possibly gets replaced with a Maxon TB Chorus or a Hardwire chorus)>Ibanez AD9 Analog Delay (just got replaced with an MXR Carbon Copy, supposedly TB)>Hardwire Delay TB>Hardwire Reverb TB (only used for my Eggie Rebel as my Mesa Lonestar has spring reverb.)>Lehle Little Dual Amp Switcher (relay TB)>10 or 20 foot cables to 2 amps.
I've thought about getting rid of the Phaser more than once, but I do like it sometimes. And the Flanger, I only use sometimes, but I like to sometimes add a little when doing crescendos right before a song's main chorus, so I don't think I can get rid of that one.
RockStarNick
Active member
Kiteboarder:
The Ibanez buffers sound like dogcrap. The Boss ones ARE decent, if you use only 1. The MXR bypasses are actually pretty darn good, used sparingly.
My reccomendation:
1. Keep the TU2 first in line, and use THAT as your buffer. I've AB'd it against the Axxess BS2, and while the Axxess is slightly better, in a real world gigging situation, *I* couldn't tell the two apart at all.
2. Mod the TS808 to get it TB'd (That's definitely do-able, and done by keeley). OR, get any one of the other MILLION TS808 clones out there that are already TB.
3. Put all your modulation effects in a True-Bypass loop box (before your amp
Phaser, Ibanez CS9, Ibanez FL9 flanger
4. If your're using the effects loop, put the Hardwire delay, reverb, and carbon copy in there. If not, and you want to get really crazy, keep the CC in the "modulation loop" or place it in another loop.
The Ibanez buffers sound like dogcrap. The Boss ones ARE decent, if you use only 1. The MXR bypasses are actually pretty darn good, used sparingly.
My reccomendation:
1. Keep the TU2 first in line, and use THAT as your buffer. I've AB'd it against the Axxess BS2, and while the Axxess is slightly better, in a real world gigging situation, *I* couldn't tell the two apart at all.
2. Mod the TS808 to get it TB'd (That's definitely do-able, and done by keeley). OR, get any one of the other MILLION TS808 clones out there that are already TB.
3. Put all your modulation effects in a True-Bypass loop box (before your amp
Phaser, Ibanez CS9, Ibanez FL9 flanger 4. If your're using the effects loop, put the Hardwire delay, reverb, and carbon copy in there. If not, and you want to get really crazy, keep the CC in the "modulation loop" or place it in another loop.
Kiteboarder
New member
Hi Nick, thanks for the advice. I'm most probably going to send the TS808 to Keeley to get it modded. As far as the TU-2, I've been seriously considering replacing it with a TB Strobe Tuner like the the Sonic Research Turbo Tuner. So I might need to add a buffer somewhere in there. I could however, get a true-bypass looper from Ant and have him add a switchable buffer just in case I need it.
Finally, I agree on putting the 2 Hardwires through the effects loop in the amp to use them with the distortion in the amp, but as for the Carbon Copy, I really think analog delays sound better through the front, so I would only use that one for cleans, or in conjunction with my distortion pedals ahead of it in the chain.
-Danny
Finally, I agree on putting the 2 Hardwires through the effects loop in the amp to use them with the distortion in the amp, but as for the Carbon Copy, I really think analog delays sound better through the front, so I would only use that one for cleans, or in conjunction with my distortion pedals ahead of it in the chain.
-Danny
Kiteboarder
New member
Nigel Tufnel":1uyxfhvc said:
Anyway, on the topic. I'm going to quote our friend here. If you guys haven't read these articles already, DO SO! It's really good material, and exposes a lot of the crap being fed by all these companies. You will learn a thing or two for sure!