What preamp tubes are you rockin' in your Bogners lately?

[RockStarNick]

Any do any preamp tube swapping lately?

I've always been of the belief that the better the amp, the more you will notice preamp tube swaps. If the amp has an open and clear voicing and circuit, then any change in the signal path, i.e. tubes, will be readily apparent. (try swapping a good NOS USA tube in the V1 in a budget amp, and you'll hear little to no difference...)

Anyway, my 20th Shiva came stock with China 12AX7Bs in all preamp positions and phase inverter.

When I first fired the amp up, I liked it, but didn't love it. Seemed a little bit shrill on the top end, and seriously lacking in bottom end. At first I panicked. Did I get the wrong amp? Should I have ordered a standard EL34 Shiva? Should I have ordered the 20th with EL34s?

Then, I decided to swap out some preamp tubes. I stuck one of my own C9's in V1, and the amp instantly sounded better. This is further proof that all C9's are not created equal. The stock ones from Bogner must have tested out great, but this particular tube just didn't have the gain or fatness. (Could be the difference between a C9 that's rated 85 and one that's rated 100-105...)

Then, I swapped out V2 and V3 (which are the gain stages for channel 2). I stuck a Sovtek 12AX7LPS in V2, and a NOS Westinghouse 12AX7 in V3, and a Tung Sol Reissue in the Phase Inverter.

Huge improvement. Bigger bottom end. More complex mids. Fatter treble tones, more singing midrange. Still sounds like the same amp, but just better all around. Now, this amp is a f*cking MONSTER. It just slays.

MY FINDINGS: I know that Bogner recommends C9's in ALL positions of their amplifiers, but lately, I'm finding that a mixture of tubes results in a more complex and balanced sound. Different tubes compliment one another, and fill in some sonic gaps. I still think that a great high-gain, low-noise C9 Shaguang in V1 is *THE* best choice for any Bogner, but something about using C9's for ALL the positions didn't impress me.

Maybe in my old EL34 Shiva, using all C9s worked well, because of the natural smoothness of that amp. But since the 20th Shiva has more bite and aggression built into the voicing, it needs other tubes to counteract that.

Moral of the story: Preamp tubes DO make a difference. Swap some out, see what happens.

 

[Death by Uberschall]

Bogner Uberschall Rev2

V1 Tung-Sol Reissue
V2 C9
V3 C9
V4 JJ ECC803S
V5 C9 Balanced
V6 C9 Balanced

The cleans are much bigger, more lively and open.

 

[Ventura]

I'm a huge fan of Tung Sols and also TAD 7025S preamps. The latter is a drop in replacement for any 12AX7, but its of ultra high quality and sonically perfect (IMHO and ears). I don't mind the Shuguang/Chinese in sockets that simply do the grunt work, but overall - the TADs and Tung Sols are by far the better glass...

As per a friend's conversation with Charlie at Bogner, he asked why they went from SED to Sovtek to JJ's in their power section along with Chinese in all their preamps. Charlie's response was - with a chuckle - "well, honestly, man, they're cheaper...if we can save a few bucks per amp it really makes a difference in the long haul."

I get it. And personally, I'd prefer if they have to cut corners, they do so on the glass as opposed to the amps, the soldering, the circuits, the wood, or anything else. Like cheap tires on a top-end car, rubber is easily replaceable, just like glass in an amp. I've got a stash of new tubes - Winged C's, preamps, KT77's, etc. - and if and when I pull the trigger on the 20thA, it wouldn't be unlike me to already have a combo of new TADs and Winged C's awaiting its arrival.

Peace,
V.

 

[TheMagicEight]

As per a friend's conversation with Charlie at Bogner, he asked why they went from SED to Sovtek to JJ's in their power section along with Chinese in all their preamps. Charlie's response was - with a chuckle - "well, honestly, man, they're cheaper...if we can save a few bucks per amp it really makes a difference in the long haul."

I love Bogner amps. I have limited resources and even still, I choose to own not one but two of them because I think they're that great. But as much as I like the amps and the company, that's a poor business practice. I think if they put better tubes in the amps - and this is a matter of speculation - they would make up for the additional cost with additional sales.

 

[Ventura]

Ya man, I see where you're going with this... Not a bad hunch. I can tell you this much though, high-end amp shops are becoming a thing (sadly) of the past. Being able to go to some local hangout and try new sounds and tones on is a thing of the past - at least when it comes to higher end amps (you'll always be able to whore out a Marshall, Peavey, Mesa, etc at your local shop). But I think MOST peeps today - just like we are here - use the internet/info highway for much of their research... Probably a lot of peeps make their minds up here than actually trying a rig out. So where I'm going with this is, MUCH like the fact some high end cars come with crap rubber - people buying these amps tend to be people who obsess and fiddle over their gear (just a guess ); Bogner knows this and figures hell, there'll be different power valves in there in NO time; and ya, it gets the amp out the door and into the consumers' hands that much faster and cheaper.

Personally, and I really mean personally, I'm cool with it. I'd prefer to have generic tubes in my Bogner and a lower pricetag than some ultra spank glass that boosts the cost $300+ and then doesn't really give "me" the chance to personalize my tone thereafter....unless I don't mind unloading the $300 worth of glass upon delivery. Know what I mean??

This is all just hyperbole anyway... But a fun topic nevertheless.

V.

 

[RockStarNick]

Bogner knows this and figures hell, there'll be different power valves in there in NO time; and ya, it gets the amp out the door and into the consumers' hands that much faster and cheaper.

Personally, and I really mean personally, I'm cool with it. I'd prefer to have generic tubes in my Bogner and a lower pricetag than some ultra spank glass that boosts the cost $300+ and then doesn't really give "me" the chance to personalize my tone thereafter....unless I don't mind unloading the $300 worth of glass upon delivery. Know what I mean??

Agreed. And swapping/upgrading a preamp tube is way easier than swaping/upgrading internal compnents, like you said.

 

[romvert]

As per a friend's conversation with Charlie at Bogner, he asked why they went from SED to Sovtek to JJ's in their power section along with Chinese in all their preamps. Charlie's response was - with a chuckle - "well, honestly, man, they're cheaper...if we can save a few bucks per amp it really makes a difference in the long haul."

I love Bogner amps. I have limited resources and even still, I choose to own not one but two of them because I think they're that great. But as much as I like the amps and the company, that's a poor business practice. I think if they put better tubes in the amps - and this is a matter of speculation - they would make up for the additional cost with additional sales.

Not really true, when you think about it a bit. As a general business practice, manufacturers have to rely on the best quality, cheapest and most readily available tubes on the market. It only makes sense from a price and reliability stand point. It would really be a gamble to "force" people to buy the expensive tubes in order to retain what would be perceived as the "original" tone.

 

[TheMagicEight]

As per a friend's conversation with Charlie at Bogner, he asked why they went from SED to Sovtek to JJ's in their power section along with Chinese in all their preamps. Charlie's response was - with a chuckle - "well, honestly, man, they're cheaper...if we can save a few bucks per amp it really makes a difference in the long haul."

I love Bogner amps. I have limited resources and even still, I choose to own not one but two of them because I think they're that great. But as much as I like the amps and the company, that's a poor business practice. I think if they put better tubes in the amps - and this is a matter of speculation - they would make up for the additional cost with additional sales.

Not really true, when you think about it a bit. As a general business practice, manufacturers have to rely on the best quality, cheapest and most readily available tubes on the market. It only makes sense from a price and reliability stand point. It would really be a gamble to "force" people to buy the expensive tubes in order to retain what would be perceived as the "original" tone.

IMO, it's better than what they're doing now: forcing people to buy cheap tubes only to assume they'll replace them with better ones and really get to hear the amp. I'd much rather spend $50 more for better tubes than have to waste the set they come stock with. I mean, it isn't that big of a deal because you can always use the originals as a backup set, but still. When I buy a new amp, I want it to arrive with the manufacturer telling me "This is the absolute best we feel this amp can sound". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is what Diezel does.

We also can't assume that everyone will be like us and try out different tubes right away. Sure, many people on these forums will, but how much of the market do we represent?

It's not a matter of truth, for one because it's impossible to study, and also because there are companies that do exactly what I'm saying that are very profitable (Mesa, for example). Like I said before, it's only a speculation, but I personally believe they would make up for the additional cost with additional sales.

 

[Ventura]

As per a friend's conversation with Charlie at Bogner, he asked why they went from SED to Sovtek to JJ's in their power section along with Chinese in all their preamps. Charlie's response was - with a chuckle - "well, honestly, man, they're cheaper...if we can save a few bucks per amp it really makes a difference in the long haul."

I love Bogner amps. I have limited resources and even still, I choose to own not one but two of them because I think they're that great. But as much as I like the amps and the company, that's a poor business practice. I think if they put better tubes in the amps - and this is a matter of speculation - they would make up for the additional cost with additional sales.

Not really true, when you think about it a bit. As a general business practice, manufacturers have to rely on the best quality, cheapest and most readily available tubes on the market. It only makes sense from a price and reliability stand point. It would really be a gamble to "force" people to buy the expensive tubes in order to retain what would be perceived as the "original" tone.

IMO, it's better than what they're doing now: forcing people to buy cheap tubes only to assume they'll replace them with better ones and really get to hear the amp. I'd much rather spend $50 more for better tubes than have to waste the set they come stock with. I mean, it isn't that big of a deal because you can always use the originals as a backup set, but still. When I buy a new amp, I want it to arrive with the manufacturer telling me "This is the absolute best we feel this amp can sound". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is what Diezel does.

We also can't assume that everyone will be like us and try out different tubes right away. Sure, many people on these forums will, but how much of the market do we represent?

It's not a matter of truth, for one because it's impossible to study, and also because there are companies that do exactly what I'm saying that are very profitable (Mesa, for example). Like I said before, it's only a speculation, but I personally believe they would make up for the additional cost with additional sales.

Well this is it - good tubes cost more than $50 bones... A matched quad of SED C's would run an additional $150 per amp head. Add to this, top-drawer preamps, at another $125 for the set, that's almost $300 more for the head - 10% price increase from base model retail - that's pretty big...! And the number's I'm pulling are conservative, as typically, Winged C's cost a bit more for a matched quad (even if a "company" buys them en masse) and preamps can go from $12 per tube to $25 per tube and more - so, the sky's the limit. I think putting "good, solid rubber" on the tires of a decent sports car is a good practice, so to speak... Gets the car out of the gate, let's you drive it, let's you corner and feel it out a bit, and when the nuances come to be, you can fine tune it with better buns and hey, even rims if need be. I think putting generic and "average" tubes in an amp is a decent way to go. Secondly, as per Diezel, yes and no. They stick the best power section in their amps, but they're still using Chinese preamps. When asked about this - Papa said the same thing - consistent, readily available, and cheap. And amp for amp, Diezels cost a fair bit more than Bogners do - right off the bat.

Interesting argument...this is a good topic

V.

 

[TheMagicEight]

Good topic indeed! I mean, there's no right nor wrong, but it's still nice to hear other POVs

Well this is it - good tubes cost more than $50 bones... A matched quad of SED C's would run an additional $150 per amp head. Add to this, top-drawer preamps, at another $125 for the set, that's almost $300 more for the head - 10% price increase from base model retail - that's pretty big...! And the number's I'm pulling are conservative, as typically, Winged C's cost a bit more for a matched quad (even if a "company" buys them en masse) and preamps can go from $12 per tube to $25 per tube and more - so, the sky's the limit.

When I said $50, I meant as an upcharge. The tubes will of course cost more than that, but I think a $50 difference between what's currently in there and what could be would be more than worth it. As for the #s, Chinese tubes go for $10.50 each at Doug's Tubes. I think they sound great, but not in every spot. For the PI, I like the Sovtek LPS. I know Bogner used to include the LPS in their amps, but don't now to save a few bucks. If they used Chinese in most slots and upgraded the one or two most important slots to something better, it would maybe cost $10 more. As for power tubes, Doug has a matched quad of =C=s at $118, as opposed to a quad of JJ EL34s from Eurotubes that cost less than half at $54. I consider =C=s to be the best for the Ecstasy, and others consider JJs to be awful. Let's compromise and go for Ruby EL34BHTs, which I've heard are pretty good tubes. A quad from Doug's costs $78. The upcharge would then be $34.

Now - and I'm going to pull these #s out of my ass to make a point - if they sell 100 amps, that's $3400 in additional cost. If they make $800 on each amp sale, they need to sell at least 5 more per 100 to offset the cost. I believe they would do better than that, and maybe sell 6-8 additional amps per 100 with better tubes. This is if they don't change the price, which thy certainly could. That's just me though, and Bogner doesn't seem to agree.

I think putting "good, solid rubber" on the tires of a decent sports car is a good practice, so to speak... Gets the car out of the gate, let's you drive it, let's you corner and feel it out a bit, and when the nuances come to be, you can fine tune it with better buns and hey, even rims if need be. I think putting generic and "average" tubes in an amp is a decent way to go. Secondly, as per Diezel, yes and no. They stick the best power section in their amps, but they're still using Chinese preamps. When asked about this - Papa said the same thing - consistent, readily available, and cheap. And amp for amp, Diezels cost a fair bit more than Bogners do - right off the bat.

Interesting argument...this is a good topic

V.

I don't mind Chinese tubes in Bogners, just not in all spots. I think by and large, people would agree that all Chinese in Bogner amps is not as good as other combinations, and at least at one point, Bogner agreed. As for power tubes, I find it hard to believe anyone would prefer JJ EL34s over SED, or even those Ruby EL34BHTs, and I guess that's what I don't like so much. The sound between them might even be similar, but the difference in feel higher quality tubes offer would be something that could convince me one way or the other.

The one thing to consider about the price of a Diezel is location. I think a Bogner is far more expensive in Germany than a Diezel, so I'm not too convinced that either one is more expensive than the other. I also - and correct me if I'm wrong - thought that Diezel amps, because of the way gain is structured, were less sensitive than Bogner amps to the types of preamp tubes in them (something I theoretically really like about Diezel).

Can't count the # of times I've not loved an amp or even disliked it until switching out tubes. I'd hate to think that people would write off Bogner, or at least hold off on buying one, because of a slightly cheaper set of tubes. It's certainly not make or break for the company, but it makes a difference.

 

[Ventura]

Good reply.

Definitely "the chicken and the egg" kind of argument, eh?

I agree with most of your post - but as an aside, don't think Ruby's are any different than JJ's or GT's for that matter - they're all re-branded generics at the end of the day. Doug's got killer pricing on Winged C's - this I did not know! Preamp stage in the Diezels? Not sure - that's a different forum topic - but I wouldn't be surprised, they over-engineer the snot outta their gear

Well, good discussion... I guess, as with every chicken/egg argument, it comes down to personal preference and perspective. I'm cool with generics in a boutique amp such as Bogner - and since "the best tone" is really such a personal thing, your comment about the Winged C's being the best may not be the case with the next dude playin', or even the next dude after that. At the end of the day, it's no surprise to anyone, nor is it "news" to anyone, that this industry is very cut-throat, and we're not dealing with massive profit margins at the end of the day... The world of smart economics is doing their own version of nip'n'tuck, so I guess it's no surprise amp companies are too. This can be countered by saying "but if people only heard what the best tubes sound like in these amps, they'd buy them regardless" argument, but I for one can attest to the fact I bought most of my amps through research on the net. And if anyone is going to sit here and tell me that they can tell the difference between what tubes JMR's playing in the better quality TM videos, I'd be scratching my head. The balls of the matter is it's hard for MANY peeps to decide on an amp and even get to play one for real - forums like this make the difference. Obviously, regardless of what tubes are coming stock in the Bogners right now, most of us still think they're the tits. And any new forumites eager to learn whether the Uber is the choice or the XTC or the Shiva, won't really know the difference between JJ's and SED's - they'll just trust that whatever they get is going to sound like a dream come true... And that, my friend, is where this sick disease of "tone quest" starts

Peace,
V.

 

[TheMagicEight]

Good reply.

Definitely "the chicken and the egg" kind of argument, eh?

I agree with most of your post - but as an aside, don't think Ruby's are any different than JJ's or GT's for that matter - they're all re-branded generics at the end of the day. Doug's got killer pricing on Winged C's - this I did not know! Preamp stage in the Diezels? Not sure - that's a different forum topic - but I wouldn't be surprised, they over-engineer the snot outta their gear

Doug does okay! It's rare that I get my tubes anywhere else.

There may be more of a difference than you think, though they're not worlds apart. For one, the JJs are made in Eastern Europe and the Rubys in China.

Well, good discussion... I guess, as with every chicken/egg argument, it comes down to personal preference and perspective. I'm cool with generics in a boutique amp such as Bogner - and since "the best tone" is really such a personal thing, your comment about the Winged C's being the best may not be the case with the next dude playin', or even the next dude after that.

Good point. I do at least think some are better matched and more consistent, and in general, I would imagine many people prefer =C=s if they got the chance to hear them side by side with JJs.

At the end of the day, it's no surprise to anyone, nor is it "news" to anyone, that this industry is very cut-throat, and we're not dealing with massive profit margins at the end of the day... The world of smart economics is doing their own version of nip'n'tuck, so I guess it's no surprise amp companies are too. This can be countered by saying "but if people only heard what the best tubes sound like in these amps, they'd buy them regardless" argument, but I for one can attest to the fact I bought most of my amps through research on the net. And if anyone is going to sit here and tell me that they can tell the difference between what tubes JMR's playing in the better quality TM videos, I'd be scratching my head.

I think it's the subtle difference, or the small nuance, in between notes where better tubes can be heard; the thing you can't put your finger on, but you know you like.

The balls of the matter is it's hard for MANY peeps to decide on an amp and even get to play one for real - forums like this make the difference. Obviously, regardless of what tubes are coming stock in the Bogners right now, most of us still think they're the tits. And any new forumites eager to learn whether the Uber is the choice or the XTC or the Shiva, won't really know the difference between JJ's and SED's - they'll just trust that whatever they get is going to sound like a dream come true... And that, my friend, is where this sick disease of "tone quest" starts

Peace,
V.

Very true! I personally wouldn't care too much what tubes an amp comes with because of the collection I have and the fact that I know how long it can sometimes take to bring out the best in an amp. Which actually brings me to something else....

I bought my Ecstasy because of JB's clips. It's the third amp I'd ever owned at the point when I bought it, next to a Triple Rectifier and a Diezel Einstein combo. I didn't like it for a while. A month went by and I started getting a feel for the controls, but to get to the point where I couldn't be happier with it took about 8 months before finally figuring out how all the controls interact and how to get it to work best with different guitars and for different sounds. That's a long time, and I consider myself to be pretty good technically. Maybe instead of tubes, they could make video demos - similar to TM but more interactive with controls and settings - showcasing the different sounds and more specifically, how to set the amps up. THAT would be nice! It would cost next to nothing and could save people - like me - a LOT of time. And that's the one thing that Mesa does better than anyone else; their Mark V manual is over 80 pages long!

I won't disagree that Bogners are "the tits"!

 

[se7en]

So, what do you guys like in V1, for instance?

 

[Death by Uberschall]

So, what do you guys like in V1, for instance?

Tung-Sol Reissue

 

[Ventura]

Yep... Or TAD 7025S throughout. They're the bomb

V.

 

[romvert]

An RFT at the moment...

 

[romvert]

Doug's got killer pricing on Winged C's - this I did not know!
V.

There's nothing killer about his price, maybe killer of the pocket.LOL
It's just that he burns them in and he's reliable, stands by the quality of the tubes he's selling.

 

[romvert]

As per a friend's conversation with Charlie at Bogner, he asked why they went from SED to Sovtek to JJ's in their power section along with Chinese in all their preamps. Charlie's response was - with a chuckle - "well, honestly, man, they're cheaper...if we can save a few bucks per amp it really makes a difference in the long haul."

I love Bogner amps. I have limited resources and even still, I choose to own not one but two of them because I think they're that great. But as much as I like the amps and the company, that's a poor business practice. I think if they put better tubes in the amps - and this is a matter of speculation - they would make up for the additional cost with additional sales.

Not really true, when you think about it a bit. As a general business practice, manufacturers have to rely on the best quality, cheapest and most readily available tubes on the market. It only makes sense from a price and reliability stand point. It would really be a gamble to "force" people to buy the expensive tubes in order to retain what would be perceived as the "original" tone.

IMO, it's better than what they're doing now: forcing people to buy cheap tubes only to assume they'll replace them with better ones and really get to hear the amp. I'd much rather spend $50 more for better tubes than have to waste the set they come stock with. I mean, it isn't that big of a deal because you can always use the originals as a backup set, but still. When I buy a new amp, I want it to arrive with the manufacturer telling me "This is the absolute best we feel this amp can sound". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is what Diezel does.

We also can't assume that everyone will be like us and try out different tubes right away. Sure, many people on these forums will, but how much of the market do we represent?

It's not a matter of truth, for one because it's impossible to study, and also because there are companies that do exactly what I'm saying that are very profitable (Mesa, for example). Like I said before, it's only a speculation, but I personally believe they would make up for the additional cost with additional sales.

With all due respect, we represent only the fringe of people buying the amp. there's a whole lot of bedroom players that buy it for the "furniture that makes cool sound" value; these guys don't give two doo-doos about the tubes in it, as long as the amp still makes sound. A good example is the guy I bought it from: of the power tubes, two were almost dead, while the other two were running around 23mA each! And the guy was playing it like that; It'd be too funny to think he sold it just because he didn't know one had to replace tubes every now and again.
So the point is that a lot of people don't know and don't care what's really in there, as long as there's somewhat of a perceived Bogner sound about it. Besides, there's is too many outside variables that would change the tone as well, like guitar, pickups, cords, speakers and enclosures.

 

[Ventura]

Good point.

Furniture that makes sound -

V.

 

[TheMagicEight]

With all due respect, we represent only the fringe of people buying the amp. there's a whole lot of bedroom players that buy it for the "furniture that makes cool sound" value; these guys don't give two doo-doos about the tubes in it, as long as the amp still makes sound. A good example is the guy I bought it from: of the power tubes, two were almost dead, while the other two were running around 23mA each! And the guy was playing it like that; It'd be too funny to think he sold it just because he didn't know one had to replace tubes every now and again.
So the point is that a lot of people don't know and don't care what's really in there, as long as there's somewhat of a perceived Bogner sound about it. Besides, there's is too many outside variables that would change the tone as well, like guitar, pickups, cords, speakers and enclosures.

Yeah, you're right about that for sure. I once bought a JCM900 Dual Reverb that was supposed to accept 5881s. Came with a nearly dead quad of =C= EL34s. Sounded a bit better after I swapped them for the correct tubes!

That's one thing I don't like about the Ecstasy, actually. It takes a LOT of work and understanding to make them sound their best. They do sound really good if only a few things are off, but the way mine is set up now I'd put it up against a 100B or 20th any day of the week. Might not sound better, but definitely wouldn't be worse. I need to record some clips so people believe me about that....

Further, I think that's why so many people love Diezel amps. The Ecstasy is better suited for my needs, but Diezels seem to be more consistent in sounding great. From what I remember of mine and understand of others, they are less sensitive of preamp tube swaps, easier to EQ and set up, and make different guitars work better together. I don't like the gain structure as much as on the 101b or Twin jet, but Diezel makes one hell of an amp and I look forward to owning another as much for their simplicity as for their tone.