What's the deal with Soldano loops? (Mod content)

[Tawlks]

So, I've been roaming the internet trying to find info on amps, since I'm buying one probably on Saturday, if not next week.

The Soldano/Jet City loops seem to get really mixed reviews, some peple loving them and some hating them.

There seem to be two issues with the loops on these amps, firstly that they're line level and not instrument level, secondly that they're pre EQ.

My question is, how does this really affect the tone? I can't find loop comparesson videos for Soldanos or Jet City's.

Is it an easy mod to 'correct' these issues to create a post EQ, instrument level loop in the 100 watt JC?

Cheers,

Tawlks.

 

[BSRIAudio]

The loop in a SLO is placed after the second stage. For clean effects this is totally fine. However, when you switch to the gain channel there is a TON of gain created in the third stage so the loop doesn't give you that huge fully wet sound. Your effects just get buried in all the distortion from the third stage. Some DIY builders move the loop. I just dont use effects with the one I build. Just enjoy the killer dry tone

 

[Piero the Guitarero]

The loop in a SLO is placed after the second stage. For clean effects this is totally fine. However, when you switch to the gain channel there is a TON of gain created in the third stage so the loop doesn't give you that huge fully wet sound. Your effects just get buried in all the distortion from the third stage.

Thats not the problem, the problem is that the loop is placed before(!) the tonestack,
which is kind of .... really really stupid. The effectsignal runs through the Bass/Mid/Treble pot,
thats not the idea of what a loop in 99% of other brands amps does.

 

[BSRIAudio]

The loop in a SLO is placed after the second stage. For clean effects this is totally fine. However, when you switch to the gain channel there is a TON of gain created in the third stage so the loop doesn't give you that huge fully wet sound. Your effects just get buried in all the distortion from the third stage.

Thats not the problem, the problem is that the loop is placed before(!) the tonestack,
which is kind of .... really really stupid. The effectsignal runs through the Bass/Mid/Treble pot,
thats not the idea of what a loop in 99% of other brands amps does.

Thats really arguable. The point of an effects loop is to drop time-based effects after gain stages so the effects are clear and powerful. If that was unneccesasary, people would just run everything in front of the amp. But with high gain, delays and modulation often sound better after the gain stages. The tone stack may color the effects in a SLO, but if the loop was after the tone stack, but there was still more gain after the loop, the difference would be minimal. Some people would actually like their effects run through the same tone stack since it would make the effected signal more homogenous with their original dry signal.

There are lots of different loop options when designing a high gain amp. Soldano does what they like and other companies do what works for them. All loops get some amount of complaints from users so you can never please everyone.

 

[Tawlks]

Thanks for the responses.

I've heard that Soldano/Jet City loops are only really designed for line level rack gear also. Can anyone comment on that? Or if it's easy to mod it to run at instrument level.

Is the Jet City/Soldano's loop tube buffered? I know the 5150's one is but I found it sucked tone a bit. I only plan on running a delay and maybe an EQ there, not sure about the EHX worm when I pick one up.

 

[JakeAC5253]

All loops are going to be line level. It's after the amplifier section of the circuit, which makes it line level.

 

[Even Bigger D]

Many designs pad the level way down for the loop and boost it back up with either a tube or SS gain stage after the loop though. Point being, the Soldano loop doesn't do that.

That said, the issue has been around for so long and the supply of line level gear is so robust that I can't imagine anyone cares anymore.

 

[BSRIAudio]

The notion that rack = line level and pedal = instrument level is a huge generalization that no longer fits. Most manufactuers build their gear with the knowledge that it might go in a loop so most stuff can handle line level nowadays.

 

[Tawlks]

All loops are going to be line level. It's after the amplifier section of the circuit, which makes it line level.

The soldano amps are pre-EQ

 

[BSRIAudio]

All loops are going to be line level. It's after the amplifier section of the circuit, which makes it line level.

The soldano amps are pre-EQ

The tone stack brings the signal level down significantly. You just have to try your gear in any loop and see if it works. If you have a problematic loop, try and stick to gear with input trim controls.

 

[Tawlks]

All loops are going to be line level. It's after the amplifier section of the circuit, which makes it line level.

The soldano amps are pre-EQ

The tone stack brings the signal level down significantly. You just have to try your gear in any loop and see if it works. If you have a problematic loop, try and stick to gear with input trim controls.

I'll only be using a TC Flashback delay and a Boss EQ.

 

[Shark Diver]

Wouldn't matter where the eq is, before or after fx, the fx are still getting that eq. Intense Jim changed his loop to go straight into the power section. There are a lot of solutions. Check out the Soldano forum. I run wet/dry so I don't use the loop. But when I did I used rack gear and had no issues. When I just used a TC2290 I used a 1/4/XLR cable into the XLR input on the TC and it worked perfectly.

There is nothing wrong with the loop. It may not be in the "conventional" place, and that freaks people out when they can't do the same ol' same ol', but those unconventional things are what gives the amp its tone.

 

[Even Bigger D]

Having used both a SLO and a X88/SM100R (which puts the effects insert point after all gain and EQs) I personally don't think the oddball loop location has anything to do with getting the SLO sound. I would almost go so far as to say it's a design mistake, and if the amp were re-designed today it would have a conventional loop and sound the same without effects and better with them.

Obviously others will disagree, but I see the SLO as the first of its breed - great proof of what that sort of preamp clipping can sound like, but a mess from a features perspective.

 

[Shark Diver]

Having used both a SLO and a X88/SM100R (which puts the effects insert point after all gain and EQs) I personally don't think the oddball loop location has anything to do with getting the SLO sound. I would almost go so far as to say it's a design mistake, and if the amp were re-designed today it would have a conventional loop and sound the same without effects and better with them.

Obviously others will disagree, but I see the SLO as the first of its breed - great proof of what that sort of preamp clipping can sound like, but a mess from a features perspective.

Well I've spoken to Mike about this at length and he doesn't see it as a mistake and has no plan on changing it. I have a X88 and X99 plus the SM100r as well and that combo doesn't really sound like the head (I have 4). To each his own, but the loop is fine if you use it the way it was designed to be used.

 

[srinivassa]

Many designs pad the level way down for the loop and boost it back up with either a tube or SS gain stage after the loop though. Point being, the Soldano loop doesn't do that.

That said, the issue has been around for so long and the supply of line level gear is so robust that I can't imagine anyone cares anymore.

This.

I hadn't heard about Soldano placement though. I take it Jet City uses 1 stage clean and 3 stage dirty, where stage = triode? It seems obvious to place the loop right before the phase inversion, after all gain stages complete. Are you sure JC doesn't do this? I may have to dig up a schematic if possible.

I don't know if I'd care about the tone stack, before or after the loop could be fine either way. Intuition says before, but I can imagine the benefits of either.

I'd have to think about running a loop at line level. I'm an all-in-front guy, so I'm a little crazy. I think I'd just buy two cheap linear boosters. That way I could cut down and boost back up. Yeah, that's the kind of stupid thing I would actually do. Maybe use two Behringer EQ's. Could eq the hell out of my loop and just 12 o'clock all the amp settings. But I like to look at things electrically. Philisohphically, that's pretty retarded.

 

[Even Bigger D]

I hadn't heard about Soldano placement though. I take it Jet City uses 1 stage clean and 3 stage dirty, where stage = triode? It seems obvious to place the loop right before the phase inversion, after all gain stages complete. Are you sure JC doesn't do this? I may have to dig up a schematic if possible.

I don't have the schematic in front of me, but if memory serves there are a pair of cathode follower compression/smoothing stages, one before the loop and one after the loop and before the EQ. So it goes something like this:

input -> clipping/distortion generation -> smoothing stage -> loop -> smoothing stage -> EQ -> phase inverter

The issue as I understand it is that the smoothing stages are in some sense also a (extremely mild) distortion stage, and as a result all effects run in the loop get that treatment from the 2nd smoothing stage too. Personally I really don't like that arrangement very much, but not because it's line level. I'd just rather have things in nice discrete blocks so that you can mix-n-match as desired without odd interactions.

 

[Even Bigger D]

Well I've spoken to Mike about this at length and he doesn't see it as a mistake and has no plan on changing it. I have a X88 and X99 plus the SM100r as well and that combo doesn't really sound like the head (I have 4). To each his own, but the loop is fine if you use it the way it was designed to be used.

There's no question it's fine, just not my personal preference. I do think the X88/SM100R combo sounds VERY similar though. I know I couldn't tell them apart blind, and I much prefer the features of the rack units.

 

[Nico]

Thanks for the responses.

I've heard that Soldano/Jet City loops are only really designed for line level rack gear also. Can anyone comment on that? Or if it's easy to mod it to run at instrument level.

Is the Jet City/Soldano's loop tube buffered? I know the 5150's one is but I found it sucked tone a bit. I only plan on running a delay and maybe an EQ there, not sure about the EHX worm when I pick one up.

There are few loops if any, metro loop possibly that don't suck a little tone out of the amp.

For instance the loop in my Bogner sucks tone and I hate to have to use it, and always avoid it!

 

[srinivassa]

I hadn't heard about Soldano placement though. I take it Jet City uses 1 stage clean and 3 stage dirty, where stage = triode? It seems obvious to place the loop right before the phase inversion, after all gain stages complete. Are you sure JC doesn't do this? I may have to dig up a schematic if possible.

I don't have the schematic in front of me, but if memory serves there are a pair of cathode follower compression/smoothing stages, one before the loop and one after the loop and before the EQ. So it goes something like this:

input -> clipping/distortion generation -> smoothing stage -> loop -> smoothing stage -> EQ -> phase inverter

The issue as I understand it is that the smoothing stages are in some sense also a (extremely mild) distortion stage, and as a result all effects run in the loop get that treatment from the 2nd smoothing stage too. Personally I really don't like that arrangement very much, but not because it's line level. I'd just rather have things in nice discrete blocks so that you can mix-n-match as desired without odd interactions.

Man, that is just a tad weird. I can't see any reason for that. It's like I have to ask myself, "Do I want my chorus to go through a triode smoothing stage?" It seems that would radically effect the sound, and it would ruin any point of reference you had from other amps. Sticking it out front, at least you know what you're getting. Your chorus goes through everything your signal does. I'll just say, "I don't get it," and leave it at that.

 

[Shark Diver]

Well I've spoken to Mike about this at length and he doesn't see it as a mistake and has no plan on changing it. I have a X88 and X99 plus the SM100r as well and that combo doesn't really sound like the head (I have 4). To each his own, but the loop is fine if you use it the way it was designed to be used.

There's no question it's fine, just not my personal preference. I do think the X88/SM100R combo sounds VERY similar though. I know I couldn't tell them apart blind, and I much prefer the features of the rack units.

Cool. I like the rack stuff as well. My heads are the rackmounts.

My current gigging rig: