Your IR experience, good/bad/ugly?

[Eazy-ESP]

They absolutely can. A real cab does it because it’s generally loud enough and projects enough mids that it vibrates the guitar’s strings. Crank the system amplifying an IR loud enough and get it to project enough similar guitar string vibrating frequencies as a cab does and it will give you feedback and interaction in the exact same way.

There’s nothing magical about feedback.

Ok. I just thought it wouldn’t be in that same cool way a Marshall cranked does. Looks like I need to get some ear protection and force my neighbours to call the cops on me again.

 

[ZEN Amps]

It's not the IRs that homogenize the tone, it's the legions of lazy beginner engineer hobbyists and youtubers using the same Mesa OS v30+57 IR and Friedman/Suhr greenback IR in literally every tone for every amp in every video to the point where we feel like it's groundhog day every time we hear that godforsaken sound

Yeah this doesn't help the cause, and certainly can lead to a lack of creativity and variety.

Do they feedback and interact?

I agree with Green that feedback is still possible, but in practice it's just less likely to occur (for recording anyway). As he correctly pointed out it's mostly due to shear SPL. Gotta crank up those monitors to excite the strings. Not hard to do but it certainly isn't a typical workflow.

An old-school technique for anyone recording that wants the sustain and/or feedback of a loud rig is to take a split of your signal before the amp. A tuner with two outputs will usually do it just fine.

One split goes to your amp, or even straight into the DAW if you're using a sim. The other goes via a volume pedal into a practice amp with a lot of distortion on tap (I use a Vox VBM1). Set it up on stool or something so you can lean in for nice feedback. Then we're you're tracking and want the goods, just jump on that volume pedal for a few bars and go crazy.

I think the first time I heard about this was from Mike Clink after the UYI sessions - but the technique likely pre-dates that.

 

[avastcosmicarena]

Yeah, if you're really bad at micing things, i'm sure single mic IRs work very well for you.

Uh, no. Some of the best sounding rock & metal guitar tones put on album by some of the best metal producers/mixers/engineers were just one SM57 on a V30. That just isn't arguable. It's a fact. Blending a bunch of mics can be cool, but it doesn't instantly mean the guitar tone will be better. Even the best guitar tones using multiple mics almost always are only using 2 (SM57 + 421 or SM57 + R121). It's very, very rare that any top producers/mixers/engineers are blending more mics than that on a guitar cab. It's actually usually the more inexperienced people who think they need a a blend of 8 mics to produce something good.

 

[DanTravis62]

Uh, no. Some of the best sounding rock & metal guitar tones put on album by some of the best metal producers/mixers/engineers were just one SM57 on a V30. That just isn't arguable. It's a fact. Blending a bunch of mics can be cool, but it doesn't instantly mean the guitar tone will be better. Even the best guitar tones using multiple mics almost always are only using 2 (SM57 + 421 or SM57 + R121). It's very, very rare that any top producers/mixers/engineers are blending more mics than that on a guitar cab. It's actually usually the more inexperienced people who think they need a a blend of 8 mics to produce something good.

Generally speaking, if your single mic IR is great, it's because it's an IR you've miced yourself

It's not the quality of the single mic IRs that's in question, it's the banality and overuse of them. You can pretend that you've reinvented the wheel by using whatever big brand 57/V30 IR, but you're just outing yourself as a beginner most of the time.

This is why everyone complains about YouTuber tones.

Multiple mic setups aren't the ONLY use for IRs, they're just a great use-case because it's much simpler than an IRL multi-mic setup.

 

[avastcosmicarena]

Generally speaking, if your single mic IR is great, it's because it's an IR you've miced yourself

It's not the quality of the single mic IRs that's in question, it's the banality and overuse of them. You can pretend that you've reinvented the wheel by using whatever big brand 57/V30 IR, but you're just outing yourself as a beginner most of the time.

This is why everyone complains about YouTuber tones.

Multiple mic setups aren't the ONLY use for IRs, they're just a great use-case because it's much simpler than an IRL multi-mic setup.

I think just as many people suck at mixing & miking up real cabs as people who suck at mixing & picking generic/meh IRs. We have the last 20 years of forum posts, YouTube videos, and cell phone tone clip videos to prove that.

IRs are just a tool. A properly made IR sounds basically indistinguishable from the same signal chain it was made from. If you are great at miking up cabs, you should also be great at making your own IRs.

 

[DanTravis62]

I think just as many people suck at mixing & miking up real cabs as people who suck at mixing & picking generic/meh IRs. We have last 20 years of forum posts, YouTube videos, and cell phone tone clip videos to prove that.

IRs are just a tool. A properly made IR sounds basically indistinguishable from the same signal chain it was made from. If you are great at miking up cabs, you should also be great at making your own IRs.

Yeah, I agree with your second paragraph, but not your first.

If you don't think there's a gigantic problem with oversaturation in the IR world it's because you like boring modern tones that have completely oversaturated the guitar space

 

[[Nathan]]

Yeah, I agree with your second paragraph, but not your first.

If you don't think there's a gigantic problem with oversaturation in the IR world it's because you like boring modern tones that have completely oversaturated the guitar space

That’s plain old human laziness though not a reflection on IRs as a technology. If you wanted your tone to stand out then there’s an infinite number of IR packs out there. It’s just that a lot of people shell out once on say GGD Cali and call it a day.

Even just looking at York, Ownhammer and Mirrorprofiles. They all offer a big range of cab packs. But good old human nature wants to reach for the 57 on that mesa cab no matter the amount of other options out there

Drop the same person in a studio full of cabs and mics, they’d probably pick up the 57 and stroll to the Mesa. IRs aren’t really the problem, it’s just a very fast and easy way of getting results so people are complacent with sounds.

 

[DanTravis62]

That’s plain old human laziness though not a reflection on IRs as a technology. If you wanted your tone to stand out then there’s an infinite number of IR packs out there. It’s just that a lot of people shell out once on say GGD Cali and call it a day.

Even just looking at York, Ownhammer and Mirrorprofiles. They all offer a big range of cab packs. But good old human nature wants to reach for the 57 on that mesa cab no matter the amount of other options out there

Drop the same person in a studio full of cabs and mics, they’d probably pick up the 57 and stroll to the Mesa. IRs aren’t really the problem, it’s just a very fast and easy way of getting results so people are complacent with sounds.

I agree, it certainly is human laziness, and I agree, it isn't a reflection on IRs as a technology

But it IS the result of the aforementioned human laziness and IRs as a technology.

Whether it's the IRs fault or not, exhaustingly boring YouTuber tones and the democratization of this technology has proven most guitarists are terrible, uncreative audio engineers

To the point where people actively hate the most popular IR sounds. Even non guitar players complain about it

We can all pretend that it would be the same without IRs but everyone knows that's a lie, because people actually lived and recorded music before IRs.

 

[avastcosmicarena]

What you 2 are neglecting to mention is that those popular Mesa V30 IRs are popular because they are based on tones from metal albums from the early 2000s made by Andy Sneap, Colin Richardson, etc.... You may think they are boring now, because of being more widespread/more easily accessible, but a lot of us still think they are some of the absolute best metal guitar tones recorded to this day. Of course, a lot of people still don't have good DI boxes, aren't that great at mixing, etc.... So, you aren't always hearing the best representation of them in YouTube videos, but IRs like those found in GGD Cali and Josh Middleton's Tonality plugin/IR pack are very good examples of Mesa V30 tones. Personally, I'd much rather hear those used and mixed well than people coming up with harsh or shitty sounding guitar tones just to try to be different.

 

[[Nathan]]

What you 2 are neglecting to mention is that those popular Mesa V30 IRs are popular because they are based on tones from metal albums from the early 2000s made by Andy Sneap, Colin Richardson, etc.... You may think they are boring now, because of being more widespread/more easily accessible, but a lot of us still think they are some of the absolute best metal guitar tones recorded to this day. Of course, a lot of people still don't have good DI boxes, aren't that great at mixing, etc.... So, you aren't always hearing the best representation of them in YouTube videos, but IRs like those found in GGD Cali and Josh Middleton's Tonality plugin/IR pack are very good examples of Mesa V30 tones. Personally, I'd much rather hear those used and mixed well than people coming up with harsh or shitty sounding guitar tones just to try to be different.

I dont think anyones neglecting that about the Mesa's at all. I also don't think IR's are a problem, it's like blaming a car for being too convenient over a horse and cart. But I will say within the realm of Mesa IR's its definitely worth mixing it up and trying different things. I used GGD Cali exclusively for over a year and when I spent a day auditioning some different packs the Cali stuff started to sound kind of flat in comparison like there was some smoothing or processing added. It's all very subjective but mixing it up with some Ownhammer/York/Mirrorprofiles stuff its like same same but different. Even the Mesa cab in the Contendors library is worth flicking to every now and then.

I guess the point is IRs are great but as someone recording videos or music it would be worthwhile NOT using the exact same IR over and over and over again. So easy to mix things up, might as well take a bit of time to keep things a touch fresh/unique.

 

[Eazy-ESP]

Is the problem also that everyone is doing the same mixing/eq’ing tricks as everyone else? I’m hopeless at that stuff, everytime I watch a YT vid on it, everyone is doing the”getting rid of the nastiness at 4k” and slidding the eq around to search for bad stuff. Is this adding to the generic tone and the lack of creative tone?

Also, interesting comments on the GGD. I was thinking of trying the cali. Maybe I shouldn’t. I can’t seem to find a York IR that doesn’t sound weird to me though. I don’t get it. Similar so far with OwnHammer.

 

[mooncobra]

I just use the ox with amp running in front of me

 

[ZEN Amps]

I guess the point is IRs are great but as someone recording videos or music it would be worthwhile NOT using the exact same IR over and over and over again. So easy to mix things up, might as well take a bit of time to keep things a touch fresh/unique.

Hey man - nice to see you here and yep agree completely. DanT also kinda nailed it really, despite you guys coming at it from different angles. The upshot of easy to use, ubiquitous tech is often homogeneity and lack of creativity. Blame the humans, or blame the tech - the result is the same!

I also think that an IR pack or plug-in with 1001 mic/placement variations on the same V30 is utterly boring. Obviously a very popular speaker, but what a quick route to a wasted afternoon of limited tones.

And yes to the below, I don't think it's helping. Smoothing out 'harsh' frequencies is sometimes required, but shouldn't be done as a matter of course just because the tech makes it simple.

Is the problem also that everyone is doing the same mixing/eq’ing tricks as everyone else? I’m hopeless at that stuff, everytime I watch a YT vid on it, everyone is doing the”getting rid of the nastiness at 4k” and slidding the eq around to search for bad stuff. Is this adding to the generic tone and the lack of creative tone?

 

[avastcosmicarena]

I dont think anyones neglecting that about the Mesa's at all. I also don't think IR's are a problem, it's like blaming a car for being too convenient over a horse and cart. But I will say within the realm of Mesa IR's its definitely worth mixing it up and trying different things. I used GGD Cali exclusively for over a year and when I spent a day auditioning some different packs the Cali stuff started to sound kind of flat in comparison like there was some smoothing or processing added. It's all very subjective but mixing it up with some Ownhammer/York/Mirrorprofiles stuff its like same same but different. Even the Mesa cab in the Contendors library is worth flicking to every now and then.

I guess the point is IRs are great but as someone recording videos or music it would be worthwhile NOT using the exact same IR over and over and over again. So easy to mix things up, might as well take a bit of time to keep things a touch fresh/unique.

There is a setting in the plugin that is applying post EQ. You can disable it to get the raw IRs.

I think the general problem you are describing comes with all digital gear. Plugins, amp sims, etc.

A lot of people just use stock presets and don't dial things in or get creative themselves. But there's nothing stopping you from dialing in and exporting a raw IR in GGD Cali, loading it up and blending it with your custom IR in a different plugin (Cabinetron will even automatically phase align them for you), applying your own EQ, etc.

So, it's not the plugin itself that is the problem. It's the lack of creativity of the users.

 

[the other John Browne]

I love IRs.

Really like the GGD and Otto Audio IRs. These days I mostly use my own ones