In the Newspaper today: COVID Vaccines saved thousands of lives in Australia
- Thread starter Thumbpicker
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Thumbpicker
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Monkey Man
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Hey, you poached my "unavailable" pic bro'. 
VonBonfire
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I am not familiar with roman catholic doctrine regarding Mary but I don't see how intercessory prayer is a bad thing. If they are alive in Christ then it's like calling up a trusted friend and saying "hey, I'm sick, would you pray for me?"
Here is "A Prayer To Your Guardian Angel" from my Greek Orthodox prayer book:
"O Angel of Christ, holy guardian and protector of my soul and body, forgive me everything wherein I have offended thee every day of my life and protect me from all influence and temptation of the evil one. May I never more anger God by any sin. Pray for me to the Lord,that He may make me worthy of the grace of the All Holy Trinity, and of the Most Blessed Theotokos, and of all the Saints. Amen"
From the same book. "Prayer To Your Patron Saint"
"Pray unto God for me, O Holy Saint (name), well pleasing to God: for I turn unto thee, who are the speedy helper and intercessor for my soul"
Floyd Eye
Well-known member
15 years old plus 1, hotter than a microwave oven. Mary baby, daddy is coming home.
Monkey Man
Super Moderator
Except that that is not what I'm saying. I've seen peeps pray to Mary to heal the sick, which is ridiculous-and-misguided IMHO.
3 "problems" with that bro':
1) "forgive me everything wherein I have offended thee every day of my life"
Only God can truly forgive. Praying for forgiveness to anyone else, even a guardian angel, is IMHO missing the point.
Why go to the middle man when you can address the source directly?
2) "May I never more anger God by any sin"
Talk about an unrealistic wish. Show me a man who's capable of that besides Jesus Christ.
3) "Pray unto God for me, O Holy Saint (name)" is again missing an opportunity to go directly to the source of all power, love and wisdom.
A personal relationship with God is encouraged throughout the scriptures.
I get that you're Orthodox. Personally I don't place any person "higher" than any other. Every Saint, Bishop, Pastor, Rabbi, Pope and whoever has and will continue to sin according to the incomprehensibly-high standards of God... because none of them is God... which in turns means that none is able to "cast the first stone" (be without sin)... or forgive our sins for that matter. Only the sinless can do that and there's only one man in history who attained that status.
Thumbpicker
Well-known member
Yes this.
VonBonfire
Well-known member
"give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our sins AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO SIN AGAINST US"
This was my Priest's response to @Thumbpicker claiming we only have to forgive someone who asks us for forgiveness. The Lord's prayer doesn't say "forgive those who sin against us when they ask us for forgiveness".
What does the Lord say to the adulterous woman? John 8:11....."GO AND SIN NO MORE". So did she?
So you've never asked a family member or friend or pastor to pray for you in a time of difficulty? Since you can go right to the source of all power, love, and wisdom their prayers aren't needed or helpful?
Not really sure why this is part of the conversation but the office of priest or bishop is an office of service to others and in the church an orthodox priest does not absolve you of sins he only acts as a witness to your confession.
"If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and we are cleansed of unrighteousness" 1 John 1:9
Thumbpicker
Well-known member
Ok... we are asking the Lord for forgiveness there in the same way we would forgive someone who sins against us and asks us for forgiveness.
"As we" - "in the same way"
Have a look at this parable... Read it closely.... The servant asks for mercy and he didn't receive it even though the person he was asking the mercy from had received mercy... In other words, he had been sinned against... the person asked for forgiveness and they didn't receive it... Now that is wrong...
The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
23 “For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24 When he began the reckoning, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him, 25 and, as he could not pay, the lord ordered him to be sold, together with his wife and children and all his possessions and payment to be made. 26 So the slave fell on his knees before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ 27 And out of pity for him, the lord of that slave released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But that same slave, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him by the throat he said, ‘Pay what you owe.’ 29 Then his fellow slave fell down and pleaded with him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ 30 But he refused; then he went and threw him into prison until he would pay the debt. 31 When his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place. 32 Then his lord summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked slave! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not have had mercy on your fellow slave, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his lord handed him over to be tortured until he would pay his entire debt. 35 So my heavenly Father will also do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”VonBonfire
Well-known member
Matthew 6:14-15
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Mark 11:25
And when you stand to pray, if you hold anything against another, forgive it, so that your Father in heaven will forgive your trespasses as well."
Thumbpicker
Well-known member
VonBonfire
Well-known member
Agreed. Which is why the Lord asks the father to forgive the people who hung him on a cross though they themselves did not ask for forgiveness.
Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Thumbpicker
Well-known member
That verse in Luke I quoted... it doesn't say forgive if he doesn't repent you know. It's only if he repents.
acceptance
Well-known member
Seems to conflict
Thumbpicker
Well-known member
I think that if you read the other verses that don't say that you can still read it into it without conflict. It says we must forgive but generally you don't forgive someone that's not sorry and keeps doing it. You can still hold out hope, have an attitude of forgiveness (in anticipation) and hope they come around.Seems to conflict
It may be an artificial distinction... between an attitude of forgiveness and actual forgiveness - it's a fine line.
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acceptance
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Well as you know there are universalists, and apparently the orthodox lean this way. Just saying it’s not cut and dry.
Thumbpicker
Well-known member
No it's not really cut and dry... there's quite a bit of debate to and fro about it if you research it.
Monkey Man
Super Moderator
That's not to say the level of forgiveness is the same.
IMHO God's forgiveness entails absolution, something we "mere mortals" cannot carry out.
Agreed. IMHO it's a blanket command with no caveats.
Context. It's obvious He was referring first and foremost to her adultery.
Great point mate; I didn't think of it this way.
The implication I was getting from your posts and quotes was that these peeps believe that Saints and whoever's prayers carry more weight somehow, which is something I disagree with 'cause God doesn't play favourites.
I agree 100%.
What's definitely coloured my view on such hierarchies is the inaccessibility of regular people to the ordained in a certain church. I think you may well know which one I'm referring to.
IOW, I'm sceptical by-default when I see peeps adorning robes and "hiding behind" ritual, only to disappear thereafter into a "secret" chamber... or office or elsewhere. My bias, for sure.
VonBonfire
Well-known member
But it says if you forgive the sins of others your sins will also be forgiven. That sounds like absolution to me.
Matthew 6 14-15
Might be me splitting hairs but if she turned into a drunk after that it wouldn't do her any favors. I saw it as a blanket admonishment.
I gather that he does. Christ said the one who humbles himself like a child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:4
Humility is a core practice of the saints. They have crucified the passions. What that tells me is "vonbonfire you have a loooong way to go". Oof.
Well at an orthodox church the priest mostly works behind the iconostasis, where the altar is. There are relics of holy martyrs on the altar, a requirement for holy communion. But aside that he is very accessible and I can text or call him at any time. It's a life of service to others and an office worthy of respect.
I want to thank you Monkey and @Thumbpicker for your well thought out responses and the time you took to speak with me. I really appreciate it and I get great enjoyment discussing these things with others. Catch you soon.
Monkey Man
Super Moderator
Right back at ya bro'. 