I Hope You Guys Are Ready For A Huge Stock Market Correction

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Floyd Eye said:
I don't keep any guns that aren't reliable. The first gen KelTecs had issues, but mine never has. I have no interest in any of their handguns or PCCs, but I like this shotgun.
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Hopefully I didn't come across as suggesting they weren't. It was mostly in regard to the Saiga/Tromix stuff. The mags are polymer but they remind me of the good ol' Tapco AK mags with sturdy feed lips, which have never failed me. I have steels too but the Tapcos, no longer in production, were like 8-10 bucks each and for sale everywhere so I wound up with a bunch of them too. Only drawback to them is they don't fit in web gear very well, if at all. TBH I shot a deer the other day using a Tapco I keep loaded with five or six rounds of hunting ammo. It's been loaded for 7 or 8 years and there are no signs of deformation or anything.

My kel tec friend has the sub 2000 carbine. Ugly as sin IMO but he loves it. Lightweight, super portable, and plenty of firepower on tap without being unreasonably priced.

Floyd Eye said:
I have a few friends with FFLs. The problem these days is most of the gun prices, at least on new releases, is set by the manufacturers. If you look for example at the new HK VP9 F1, you will see the same exact price regardless of vendor. It usually takes a year or so for sales to slump off and prices to relax and vary.
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I never look for new releases for the most part. I'm the same way with guitar stuff and then when it's out of production ten years on I wind up paying more for stuff I didn't realize was awesome at the time it came out, lol, so maybe I should be watching more new releases.
 
VonBonfire said:
Hopefully I didn't come across as suggesting they weren't. It was mostly in regard to the Saiga/Tromix stuff. The mags are polymer but they remind me of the good ol' Tapco AK mags with sturdy feed lips, which have never failed me. I have steels too but the Tapcos, no longer in production, were like 8-10 bucks each and for sale everywhere so I wound up with a bunch of them too. Only drawback to them is they don't fit in web gear very well, if at all. TBH I shot a deer the other day using a Tapco I keep loaded with five or six rounds of hunting ammo. It's been loaded for 7 or 8 years and there are no signs of deformation or anything.

My kel tec friend has the sub 2000 carbine. Ugly as sin IMO but he loves it. Lightweight, super portable, and plenty of firepower on tap without being unreasonably priced.


I never look for new releases for the most part. I'm the same way with guitar stuff and then when it's out of production ten years on I wind up paying more for stuff I didn't realize was awesome at the time it came out, lol, so maybe I should be watching more new releases.
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Not at all brother. I have a severe, possibly irrational, dislike of external, box mag fed shotguns. Especially the ones made in Turkey. Or ANY gun made in Turkey for that matter. That dislike does not apply to ARs or other rifle platforms. I'm not going to give an estimation of the total number of 5.56 mags I have, but I assure you it is enough. Every single one of them is a gen 2 or gen 3 Pmag. The reason isn't because I dislike steel or any other USGI mags. The fact is that in every gun I have ever used them or seen them used, a PMag has never failed in any way. Prior to the DOD releasing funds that would allow P Mags to be furnished to soldiers, the number one thing soldiers who were being deployed spent their own money on was PMags.
 
I don't really know what you guys are talking about but as far as I'm concerned gun-talk is the most wholesome apart from guitar gear here on RT.
 
acceptance said:
Knives are cool too. And flashlights. Just got me a streamlight microstream for christmas and I love it.
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I have a few Streamlight WMLs ( Weapon Mounted Light). I'm really not a WML acolyte. Some guys put them on everything, including carry pistols. I put one on a shotgun and one on an AR. My thinking was if I have to go mobile for any length of time I will likely only have time to grab one or two long guns and they may as well have lights on them because you never know if you're gonna need one. I put the Streamlight Pro Tac on one of my tier 1 ARs, but my main jam being shotguns I couldn't bear the thought of putting one on one of my tier 1 shotguns. Still, it is on an utterly reliable and proven shotgun that I've trained with since I was about 21.
 

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acceptance said:
That seems silly, unless carry = nightstand as well I guess. Having one on a grab n go makes sense.

PS nice Vader, got tha links ?
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I think the idea is caught in a dark alley or something. Mostly stuff that doesn't apply to me. Pointing a light on the end of a gun at someone IS pointing a gun at someone. If I'm doing that I have already made my mind up what I'm doing. Personally I think the primary, legitimate function is for cops so they don't have to have a light in one hand and a stupid grip on their sidearm to use it. They apparently get to point guns at people they may or may not be getting ready to shoot. For most of us that's called brandishing and is a felony. As far as anything in my house, I have very low voltage lighting at night, most of which is not dependent on electricity and it seems to me shining a light primarily serves to give away your position.

Vader's alright. She's got a trio of similarly sized Stormtroopers too. Calls them her plastic boyfriends. Should see her tooling around town in her rail buggy with a stormtrooper in a 3 point harness in the passenger bucket.
 
Floyd Eye said:
I think the idea is caught in a dark alley or something. Mostly stuff that doesn't apply to me. Pointing a light on the end of a gun at someone IS pointing a gun at someone. If I'm doing that I have already made my mind up what I'm doing. Personally I think the primary, legitimate function is for cops so they don't have to have a light in one hand and a stupid grip on their sidearm to use it. They apparently get to point guns at people they may or may not be getting ready to shoot. For most of us that's called brandishing and is a felony. As far as anything in my house, I have very low voltage lighting at night, most of which is not dependent on electricity and it seems to me shining a light primarily serves to give away your position.

Vader's alright. She's got a trio of similarly sized Stormtroopers too. Calls them her plastic boyfriends. Should see her tooling around town in her rail buggy with a stormtrooper in a 3 point harness in the passenger bucket.
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I agree with everything you say but I don't have good exterior lighting and my property is posted at the gate. It gets very dark back here some nights. It's easier to grab gun w/flashlight at night than gun and flashlight separately. Even if they are next to each other you've tied up one hand unless you gun grip the light or were sleeping with a holster on, lol. I have a quick IWB but it doesn't work when I have the light on it, lol. No bueno. And a good TLR does not require pointing the gun at someone to illuminate them and the area around them. I can light up my back field at about 80 yards pretty well. It's usually quiet out here at night so if there is some big commotion or yelling that awakens me, they are already trespassing on my property.

We keep a good old fashioned maglight near the door for general use. A bit crude but still more powerful than the TLR and it's big so it's a crappy club and hard to misplace. I heard coyotes screaming out back the other night and as soon as I lit up the field I didn't hear a peep, lol. Anyways I gotta red dog sleeping by the woostove that runs nightwatch and can def handle business.
 
VonBonfire said:
I agree with everything you say but I don't have good exterior lighting and my property is posted at the gate. It gets very dark back here some nights. It's easier to grab gun w/flashlight at night than gun and flashlight separately. Even if they are next to each other you've tied up one hand unless you gun grip the light or were sleeping with a holster on, lol. I have a quick IWB but it doesn't work when I have the light on it, lol. No bueno. And a good TLR does not require pointing the gun at someone to illuminate them and the area around them. I can light up my back field at about 80 yards pretty well. It's usually quiet out here at night so if there is some big commotion or yelling that awakens me, they are already trespassing on my property.

We keep a good old fashioned maglight near the door for general use. A bit crude but still more powerful than the TLR and it's big so it's a crappy club and hard to misplace. I heard coyotes screaming out back the other night and as soon as I lit up the field I didn't hear a peep, lol. Anyways I gotta red dog sleeping by the woostove that runs nightwatch and can def handle business.
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Oddly enough I've taken a couple classes focused on night shooting which included WMLs, though it was mostly NV so I am familiar with what are commonly called best practices with them, it's just that I don't really find myself in need of them, particularly on a carry gun. If I was in your situation I'm sure I would feel differently.


NV is completely bad ass by the way. I got buddies who are all set up with it, but it's too expensive for me to justify. And the cheap stuff ( Let's say anything under a couple grand) is pretty crappy.
 
Floyd Eye said:
The KSG25 is a 25 rd. capacity pump action "Clone" of an Ithaca Model 37. It does NOT mitigate recoil by any stretch of the imagination. That's something you "Should" learn and train into your shotgunning. The most effective recoil mitigation technique I have found is the Rob Haught "Push/Pull" method. Very effective combatting muzzle rise and increasing speed on follow up shots by keeping you on target. Buckshot isn't bad but magnum slugs out of this gun are punishing. My Beretta 1301 T and IWI Tavor TS-12 are much softer shooters than the KSG. For standard, garden variety self defense/violent encounters I will pick one of these over the KSG every time. Where the KSG25 shines is in the capacity department. 25 rounds on tap split between two 12rd. mag tubes.
Now the TS-12 is semi auto and will hold 17 rounds. It has ample loading ports on both sides of the receiver and can be emptied in about 7 seconds and reloaded in about 30 seconds as long as you know what you're doing. It can also be "Topped up" at will which is something most semi autos can't do. The Beretta is fast and light, can be loaded to 9 rds. and with a 7 rd. shotgun card on the side of the receiver it will yield 16 rds very quickly. Like most autoloaders though you will have to run it to it's last shell before the tube can be reloaded so training to be fast at port loading and tube loading is a very valuable skillset. Both the TS-12 and the 1301 T will shoot anything you can chamber in it and both handle magnum slugs with amazingly soft recoil impulse.

I have zero use for or faith in ANY external mag fed shotgun although by all accounts the Saiga is a very reliable shotgun. If the ATF is reined in and the AA12 becomes available for civilian use I will definitely buy one.

The knife, yes it's a Microtech UTX-85.
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I was shopping semi-auto shotguns and one in particular caught my eye, SDS MAC 1014 and MAC 2. Both pistol grip and handsome guns but one was a 3 round and one a 5 and my first thought was that's a small capacity for a semi-auto.
Lots of shotguns out there fed from clips, thanks for your thoughts on that design.
 
84superchamp said:
I was shopping semi-auto shotguns and one in particular caught my eye, SDS MAC 1014 and MAC 2. Both pistol grip and handsome guns but one was a 3 round and one a 5 and my first thought was that's a small capacity for a semi-auto.
Lots of shotguns out there fed from clips, thanks for your thoughts on that design.
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Those are Turkish clones of the Benelli M4. First off, I wouldn’t own a Turkish shotgun, just me. Secondly, the 1014 branding is pure marketing bullshit for stupid people. M1014 is the military designation for a Benelli M4 with a 6 position telescoping skeletonized stock, enhanced bolt release, charging handle and safety and a 1 piece 7 round magazine tube. The USMC has been using these for a couple decades and it’s widely accepted as the gold standard, best tactical shotgun ever produced. They run about $2500 if you can find one. If you look at the mag tube on the Turkish guns, a few inches from the muzzle you’ll see a scrunched up looking area. That tells you it’s neutered and has a 5 rd. tube. You can get a 2 rd extension from Nordic or Aridus and bring it up to 7. From what I have been told by guys who own one of these “ Turkinellis”, they are near clones of the M4 and most parts are interchangeable. Needless to say the parts on these clones are far from the quality of a Benelli. Turkish shotguns are notorious for being junky. That said, supposedly after breaking them in they run ok. Though no one I know would actually use one in a life or death situation.


Honestly dude, depending on your budget I’d look at the Mossberg 940 or the Beretta Ultima 400. Both are sub 1k. Not in the same league as the Benelli or the Beretta 1301T, but much nicer than the Turkish stuff.

I think the 1301 Tacticals are running about $1400 or $1500 now.
 
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Floyd Eye said:
Those are Turkish clones of the Benelli M4. First off, I wouldn’t own a Turkish shotgun, just me. Secondly, the 1014 branding is pure marketing bullshit for stupid people. M1014 is the military designation for a Benelli M4 with a 6 position telescoping skeletonized stock, enhanced bolt release, charging handle and safety and a 1 piece 7 round magazine tube. The USMC has been using these for a couple decades and it’s widely accepted as the gold standard, best tactical shotgun ever produced. They run about $2500 if you can find one. If you look at the mag tube on the Turkish guns, a few inches from the muzzle you’ll see a scrunched up looking area. That tells you it’s neutered and has a 5 rd. tube. You can get a 2 rd extension from Nordic or Aridus and bring it up to 7. From what I have been told by guys who own one of these “ Turkinellis”, they are near clones of the M4 and most parts are interchangeable. Needless to say the parts on these clones are far from the quality of a Benelli. Turkish shotguns are notorious for being junky. That said, supposedly after breaking them in they run ok. Though no one I know would actually use one in a life or death situation.


Honestly dude, depending on your budget I’d look at the Mossberg 940 or the Beretta Ultima 400. Both are sub 1k. Not in the same league as the Benelli or the Beretta 1301T, but much nicer than the Turkish stuff.

I think the 1301 Tacticals are running about $1400 or $1500 now.
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American Rifleman tends to talk up those lesser known brands but don't know why?
In their words you're getting practically the same gun for much less money. Thanks for clarifying.
(y)
 
84superchamp said:
American Rifleman tends to talk up those lesser known brands but don't know why?
In their words you're getting practically the same gun for much less money. Thanks for clarifying.
(y)
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Well you gotta remember those companies pay them to talk those brands up.

An apt comparison might be a Bugera clone of a classic Marshall amp. Or an Asian made Squier Tele compared to an American made Tele.

Those guns may function just fine for the average joe. Maybe. But let's not pretend the quality is even close to comparable. And if you intend to use it as more than a range toy, buy the best you can afford.

Without going into too much detail, I am a guy who has had cause to work on firearms. I have no experience working on Turkish semi auto handguns, which seem to be very popular these days ( Tisas, Daly, Canik, etc.) but I have worked on a hell of a lot of Turkish shotguns. And without going into too much detail about that, I'll just summarize by saying I would never own one. If someone gave me one, I would make sure it functions and sell it.
 
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