Frontline205 & GJgo test the IIC+ Reissue against the OG!

They all sounded good to me. How they feel would matter way more to me than reasonable (5.1% to 7.9%) tonal differences. That said... the second one from the left sounded a bit more tan.
 
The punch of an amp is something thatā€™s hard to let go. Iā€™ve had several amps that had a decent amount of punch with the best being a Splawn quickrod. It moved a ton of air and was amazing for that. The IIC+ reissue seems to have some of that punch, and way more than the VII, which I agree didnā€™t move a lot of air but had plenty of lows. Personally I loved the VII and I believe it was the amp that the V should have been but without a doubt the IIc+ reissue hits harder.
 
I put some old wafer 5881 Sovteks in the VII and it wouldn't stop growling and throwing fists.
 
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Red Snapper said:
Wow! Have you ever looked at a spectrum analysis of an analog signal? I guess not. Not all amps output the same "punch" as you call it. Each manufacturer outputs a signal made up of different levels of the same audio frequencies. So to say "there's not a difference in punch with amp brands" is totally wrong. There are different levels of each frequency between bands. Please research audio engineering before you post false statements.
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Behold, itā€™s theToneDig 2.0
 
Red Snapper said:
If you can read, you would see that my above statement says just that. Plexi punch is different than Mesa punch. I can draw you a diagram if needed.
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Nice of you to offer, but Iā€™d much prefer a graph of your ā€œspectrum analysisā€ to tell me how my amp punches in the room while Iā€™m standing directly in front of it.
 
Beyond Black said:
Nice of you to offer, but Iā€™d much prefer a graph of your ā€œspectrum analysisā€ to tell me how my amp punches in the room while Iā€™m standing directly in front of it.
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Technically it is possible. Wish I had money to afford extensive research of the cause.
 
Yikes. I would guess he is defining "punch" as something different than everyone else is, because a mark 7 into a vertical 2x12 (which, is btw, an excellent sounding rig) is not remotely going to compete with non-cascaded amps or an early mark, wizard, etc, insofar as what everyone means when they say "punch."

I literally built a painstaking hiwatt 100w kit to satisfy my craving for the kick to the head that only headroom, dynamics, and amplitude can deliver.

Beyond Black said:
Technically itā€™s unnecessary.
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Yeah I was unaware this was controversial in any way whatsoever.

I'm guessing this is kind of like "tight" - where people who don't really know what everyone else is talking about assume it means "I like the sound of this amp."

I'm adding "my mark7 and grab n go cab punches as hard as my 1959" to the list with "the Orange TH30 is the tightest amp I've ever played" as a full on šŸ¤”šŸŒŽ territory statement
 
Red Snapper said:
Wow! Have you ever looked at a spectrum analysis of an analog signal? I guess not. Not all amps output the same "punch" as you call it. Each manufacturer outputs a signal made up of different levels of the same audio frequencies. So to say "there's not a difference in punch with amp brands" is totally wrong. There are different levels of each frequency between bands. Please research audio engineering before you post false statements.
Click to expand...
Are you lost? This isn't The Gear Page. An attitude like that isn't going to serve you well here.

Engineers drive me nuts sometimes, when they're so confident about a subset of things they think they know and fail to acnowledge the things they don't. Ego causes a perspective clash that I see all the time. In this case one thing that I think a lot of people fail to consider is that volume and movement of air are not the same thing. A practical corollary here is how pressure and flow are not the same thing- eg. for any given system pressure you can dramatically change the flow by altering the orifice diameter. For our example volume, tone etc. we can measure & record with a microphone. Movement of air unfortunately we cannot, and this is something I've been pondering how to capture for the last year or so. My initial theory is to develop an enclosed system to place a speaker in where the air pulsing can be datalogged with a MAP sensor. The exercise would be to capture how an amp FEELS to overlay with how it sounds for a more 3 dimensional picture of the experience. I even 3D printed an apparatus for this and borrowed some other test equipment but haven't put in the work yet. If I can pull it off we can map the truth in the middle between the "only recording matters" people and the "only in the room matters" people.

I think the VII is a great amp for a ton of people & I'm happy for anyone who loves it. Bedroom players & tan pants giggers rejoice! I also think it's not for me and my metal band because it's mushy as a bowl of oatmeal and punches like Richard Simmons. It was so washed out at volume my drummer literally couldn't hear me, and this isn't my first rodeo. I would love to look at the VII vs a C+ on an oscilloscope, I'm confident that the lazy attack would be evident.

The C+ RI does have some punch and as I said for the $ I'd be totally happy with it. It's as fast as I'd expect any Simul triode Mark to be and has possibly better mids than the OG for a mix. That said it doens't punch like an OG II, III, IV or V. Ask @frontline205 why he liked my III+ over the RI.

Side note, I do think 2x12s tend to cut the band mix better than 4x12s, at least with Mesa ones, however they do eviscerate the bottom end to get there. I like this strategy if you need a Mesa to cut in a 2 guitar band or if you're a super-drop-tuner-dude. So, there's a place for it.

I'm with Racer, for what I'm looking for I require big punch & great tone which means superb tube amps & 4x12s. Modelers and DIs can chupa mi verga. (..although I will admit I have played exactly 1 patch through a Fractal & FRFR 4x12 that impressed me. It was a workup from a famous 80s rocker.) That's why Marshalls (I've never played an OG superlead..) don't work for me. The tone is there, but not the girth. So, I prefer Mesas that have less awesome mids and huge body. Hell, I love Peaveys in the band as their mids are great for metal but they just don't tickle my sack like a good Mesa does.

How much punch do I need? This is about right. When I can get the audience to feel this, that's a win in my book.









Ok one more. It's hard to tell from the phone vid, but the BIGGEST push in the room I've gigged, even more than the Colis, was the SLO100. I like to walk down to the front row during sound check (wireless) to see what the tone is like out front and that thing could make your hairs stand up. Such a powerful amp.

 
DanTravis62 said:
Yikes. I would guess he is defining "punch" as something different than everyone else is, because a mark 7 into a vertical 2x12 (which, is btw, an excellent sounding rig) is not remotely going to compete with non-cascaded amps or an early mark, wizard, etc, insofar as what everyone means when they say "punch."

I literally built a painstaking hiwatt 100w kit to satisfy my craving for the kick to the head that only headroom, dynamics, and amplitude can deliver.



Yeah I was unaware this was controversial in any way whatsoever.

I'm guessing this is kind of like "tight" - where people who don't really know what everyone else is talking about assume it means "I like the sound of this amp."

I'm adding "my mark7 and grab n go cab punches as hard as my 1959" to the list with "the Orange TH30 is the tightest amp I've ever played" as a full on šŸ¤”šŸŒŽ territory statement
Click to expand...
A deaf person would sense the difference in air being pushed between a VII and a Plexi.
 
GJgo said:
For our example volume, tone etc. we can measure & record with a microphone. Movement of air unfortunately we cannot, and this is something I've been pondering how to capture for the last year or so.
Click to expand...
Ok. The only scientific solution I can see is to have a few women stand in front of the cab braless and see which amp bounces their titties the best
 
See, redsnapper, the problem here is you're trying to define punch by simple FREQUENCY RESPONSE when what is generally defined as "punch," colloquially, is a specific behavior of frequency response over time - it's a very specific frequency response that's common to a handful of amp topologies.

I promise we're not dead set on being assholes here, but we need these terms to be defined consistently so people know what other people are describing "in the room" AS WELL as what's on the spectrum analysis.

Your "please go to college sweaty" comments aren't going to send people who've worked in studios, gigged and toured extensively, etc, running with their tails between their legs. This isn't TGP.
 
GJgo said:
Are you lost? This isn't The Gear Page. An attitude like that isn't going to serve you well here.

Engineers drive me nuts sometimes, when they're so confident about a subset of things they think they know and fail to acnowledge the things they don't. Ego causes a perspective clash that I see all the time. In this case one thing that I think a lot of people fail to consider is that volume and movement of air are not the same thing. A practical corollary here is how pressure and flow are not the same thing- eg. for any given system pressure you can dramatically change the flow by altering the orifice diameter. For our example volume, tone etc. we can measure & record with a microphone. Movement of air unfortunately we cannot, and this is something I've been pondering how to capture for the last year or so. My initial theory is to develop an enclosed system to place a speaker in where the air pulsing can be datalogged with a MAP sensor. The exercise would be to capture how an amp FEELS to overlay with how it sounds for a more 3 dimensional picture of the experience. I even 3D printed an apparatus for this and borrowed some other test equipment but haven't put in the work yet. If I can pull it off we can map the truth in the middle between the "only recording matters" people and the "only in the room matters" people.

I think the VII is a great amp for a ton of people & I'm happy for anyone who loves it. Bedroom players & tan pants giggers rejoice! I also think it's not for me and my metal band because it's mushy as a bowl of oatmeal and punches like Richard Simmons. It was so washed out at volume my drummer literally couldn't hear me, and this isn't my first rodeo. I would love to look at the VII vs a C+ on an oscilloscope, I'm confident that the lazy attack would be evident.

The C+ RI does have some punch and as I said for the $ I'd be totally happy with it. It's as fast as I'd expect any Simul triode Mark to be and has possibly better mids than the OG for a mix. That said it doens't punch like an OG II, III, IV or V. Ask @frontline205 why he liked my III+ over the RI.

Side note, I do think 2x12s tend to cut the band mix better than 4x12s, at least with Mesa ones, however they do eviscerate the bottom end to get there. I like this strategy if you need a Mesa to cut in a 2 guitar band or if you're a super-drop-tuner-dude. So, there's a place for it.

I'm with Racer, for what I'm looking for I require big punch & great tone which means superb tube amps & 4x12s. Modelers and DIs can chupa mi verga. (..although I will admit I have played exactly 1 patch through a Fractal & FRFR 4x12 that impressed me. It was a workup from a famous 80s rocker.) That's why Marshalls (I've never played an OG superlead..) don't work for me. The tone is there, but not the girth. So, I prefer Mesas that have less awesome mids and huge body. Hell, I love Peaveys in the band as their mids are great for metal but they just don't tickle my sack like a good Mesa does.

How much punch do I need? This is about right. When I can get the audience to feel this, that's a win in my book.









Ok one more. It's hard to tell from the phone vid, but the BIGGEST push in the room I've gigged, even more than the Colis, was the SLO100. I like to walk down to the front row during sound check (wireless) to see what the tone is like out front and that thing could make your hairs stand up. Such a powerful amp.

Click to expand...

That was a very intelligent, informative and well thought out post that could have been better summed up with a good sPeKtRuM aNaLySiS.
 
DanTravis62 said:
See, redsnapper, the problem here is you're trying to define punch by simple FREQUENCY RESPONSE when what is generally defined as "punch," colloquially, is a specific behavior of frequency response over time - it's a very specific frequency response that's common to a handful of amp topologies.

I promise we're not dead set on being assholes here, but we need these terms to be defined consistently so people know what other people are describing "in the room" AS WELL as what's on the spectrum analysis.

Your "please go to college sweaty" comments aren't going to send people who've worked in studios, gigged and toured extensively, etc, running with their tails between their legs. This isn't TGP.
Click to expand...
Easy, Gramps
 
Smash said:
Ok. The only scientific solution I can see is to have a few women stand in front of the cab braless and see which amp bounces their titties the best
Click to expand...
GJgo said:
Personally I'd rather measure their levels of saturation.. Is the amp dry, or wet?
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Let's be honest. Either way, you are going to far surpass the likes and subscribes of those making clickbait titles and digestive distress faces
 
Smash said:
Ok. The only scientific solution I can see is to have a few women stand in front of the cab braless and see which amp bounces their titties the best
Click to expand...
This is known in the industry as a ā€œmammary analysis.ā€ It originated in the 60ā€™s with braless hippie chicks being beaten senseless by their own jugs by cranked Plexis.
 
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