Any Worthy "Upgrade" from the Suhr RL:IR?

I never followed up in this thread with my experience comparing the two but found the same - defeating the internal load resulted in a more natural result through good IR's. But as you say it's also defeating the purpose I have for the thing, which is working silently when I just want to concentrate on songwriting. Although, the internal load sounds pretty good with my JCM 800 which is the biggest offender volume wise.

One workaround is using a passthrough box and separate load box. I always did amp into Two Notes CAB and then out into the Reload for quiet practice. this way I am tapping the amp without the influence ( or at least minimized influence ) of the load from the Reload box.
 
stereo out isn't useless, it has full stereo routing. you can take a single amp in and have different IRs for left and right. you can also route the l/r feeds through stereo digital effects either in your DAW or out via stereo outs.
But if you already have a 2-amp stereo rig with stereo FX in the loop, a single speaker input on a load box isn't gonna work with that in stereo. You'd have to reroute your whole FX loop to be in the load box's loop. Then move it all back to the amps' FX loops when you want to use your speakers again.
But an FX loop AFTER the speaker output? Doesn't make sense. FX are before the power amp, not between the amp and speaker...
You need a load box for each power amp if you want to retain your existing stereo rig without having to rewire everything every time you switch between speakers and the silent load.
 
Have you checked phase?
Phase cancelation can't happen in a mono signal. With a speaker plugged into Thru, it sounds one way (good). Without the speaker, it sounds another way (boomy and scooped).
I do run a stereo wet/dry/wet rig that I've recreated with IRs, and I have a Nugen Aligner plugin to correct any phase discrepancies. But I'm talking about the sound from just the mono channel that the Suhr RL is on.
 
But if you already have a 2-amp stereo rig with stereo FX in the loop, a single speaker input on a load box isn't gonna work with that in stereo. You'd have to reroute your whole FX loop to be in the load box's loop. Then move it all back to the amps' FX loops when you want to use your speakers again.
But an FX loop AFTER the speaker output? Doesn't make sense. FX are before the power amp, not between the amp and speaker...
You need a load box for each power amp if you want to retain your existing stereo rig without having to rewire everything every time you switch between speakers and the silent load.
It jink for what you want you are going to have to buy multiple units regardless of the solution
 
It jink for what you want you are going to have to buy multiple units regardless of the solution
Yeah, that's my point... there aren't any true stereo load boxes. If you have a 2 or 3 amp rig, you'll need 2 or 3 load boxes to record it directly.
 
I just got the st rock react II. It’s too early for a glowing review but initial impression is very positive. It’s a reactive load that does stereo with different IRs in each channel if you want. It also has an attenuator that can run at the same time as the xlr out to a cabinet so you can feed FoH and monitor yourself with a real cab that you control the volume to.

For 500 bucks shipped it’s a no brainer
What’s it feel like when playing? I wish we knew more about the impedance curve and what type of speaker it was based off of.
 
Phase cancelation can't happen in a mono signal. With a speaker plugged into Thru, it sounds one way (good). Without the speaker, it sounds another way (boomy and scooped).
I do run a stereo wet/dry/wet rig that I've recreated with IRs, and I have a Nugen Aligner plugin to correct any phase discrepancies. But I'm talking about the sound from just the mono channel that the Suhr RL is on.
So the Suhr is the load correct? Then adding the speaker in the thru is putting another “load” in parallel? If so, are you changing the impedance setting on the amp?
With my Powerstation, if running the line out direct and micing a speaker off the amp, I had to reverse the phase on the line out. Not the same setup of course, but what I had to do.
 
What’s it feel like when playing? I wish we knew more about the impedance curve and what type of speaker it was based off of.
Impedance curve for the v1 looked really good. Based off the list of what changed it’s probably the same.

Feels about like the real amp. If I was blindfolded I’d probably not be able to tell the difference. A bit of squish but that could be because I’m playing the Uber green.
 
I recently started recording again and just assumed the two notes captor x would be good enough for me. I couldn't get rid of it fast enough. After that I dove down the rabbit hole of load boxes and came across this series. This must have taken him an incredible amount of time to compare them all but it is very in depth.

The driftwood is missing from the test but it just seemed a bit too dark to my ears quite honestly so I wasn't upset about it. I ultimately picked up a fractal x load a couple of days ago as they were on sale for $249.99 and I don't need a lot of the options on many of the other boxes. Hoping it's delivered by Monday.

 
This thread led me to making a quick video as I'd made some IR's today and was testing their accuracy. My goal is always to ensure that when you use a load box with the amp, that you can achieve the same tones as you would when micing it up normally. The key really is being aware of the load's you're dealing with, and picking appropriate IR's.

I love discussing this stuff, but sometimes its easier to back up what I'm saying just by demonstrating it. Friedman BE100 2016, Marshall 1960B fitted with 1999 V30's. sm57->Chandler TG2->Neve 1073 style line amp



I actually was close to including a pass with Helix's Friedman and one of my IR's too just to show it sounding accurate with those (just to show the IR's are equally accurate with other gear) but felt like it was getting away from the point a bit.

Wow, neither sounded close to being as open and as good as the mic on cab. Chandler pre sounds good.
 
Impedance curve for the v1 looked really good. Based off the list of what changed it’s probably the same.

Feels about like the real amp. If I was blindfolded I’d probably not be able to tell the difference. A bit of squish but that could be because I’m playing the Uber green.
Where did you see graphs?
 
So the Suhr is the load correct? Then adding the speaker in the thru is putting another “load” in parallel? If so, are you changing the impedance setting on the amp?
With my Powerstation, if running the line out direct and micing a speaker off the amp, I had to reverse the phase on the line out. Not the same setup of course, but what I had to do.
Putting a speaker in the Thru jack overrides the Suhr's internal load, it doesn't run in parallel with it. It's 8 ohms only. You either use the internal load or a speaker, but you can't record silently with a speaker connected. I'm not recording the speaker, I'm recording the mono DI into IRs. It sounds right with a speaker connected, it sounds boomy and scooped without a speaker connected (using the internal load). There can't be any phase issues with a mono signal. It's just the way the load sounds. Every load/speaker makes the line out sound different. I just can't figure out why so many people favor the Suhr RL, because it sounds terrible compared to a real speaker load or a Rivera Mini Rock Rec (just picked up last night). The Mini RR line out -> IRs sounds the way it's supposed to. The mids are present, like they are with speakers, and the bass isn't boosted.
I actually really like thumpy, scooped, chuggy high gain, but the Suhr RL is just excessive. Heavy bass and scooped mids sounds good when you're just playing guitar, but it does not work in a mix at all. The low end gets muddied up with the actual bass, and all you hear is the high end screech. With no mids, it's buried in the mix.
 
what cab and speakers are you using? Is it open back, closed, or ported?

Interesting that it sounds so different, from the plots I have seen of the SRL it’s low frequency resonance is about 40 ohms at about 100 hz, which is about right for a 4x12 closed back cab with celestions. I haven’t tried the SRL but I did build my own based off the Aiken layout (same as schematic on the previous page). I measured my cabs impedence curve then tweaked values in LTSpice to get it looking about the same. Which is with about a 45 ohm low resonant peak at 103hz in my case. And my load does sound the same as my cab’s load.

The SRL does follow the same circuit layout as the Aiken style schematic on the previous page, but without the low resonance resistor. The purpose of that resistor is to limit the low frequency peak size. In the SRL is likely limited by the DCR of the big inductor. An ‘ideal’ inductor with zero DCR would give a massive low peak that must be limited but most inductors will have some DCR. I used expensive hifi crossover parts when I built mine so I needed that limiting resistor, but I did need to tweak the value once I built it since I didn’t take into account the effect the aluminium enclosure I used would have on the inductance of that coil.

One could forego this low resonance resistor if the inductor used has sufficient DCR, which I assume is what Suhr did. So maybe you got one with a coil with lower DCR than expected? Or maybe your cab just has a lower resonant peak? You could add a resistor there to deaden the low peak though personally I’d want to measure both my cab and the load to see if there are any other differences. I used room eq wizard (there are instructions on their site for how to do an impedence measurement). Dayton audio DATS is also another way but you have to buy their tool.
 

Attachments

  • 31AC7C0A-420E-48FB-BC4F-77339F78F40D.jpeg
    31AC7C0A-420E-48FB-BC4F-77339F78F40D.jpeg
    150.1 KB · Views: 38
I just can't figure out why so many people favor the Suhr RL, because it sounds terrible compared to a real speaker load or a Rivera Mini Rock Rec (just picked up last night). The Mini RR line out -> IRs sounds the way it's supposed to. The mids are present, like they are with speakers, and the bass isn't boosted.
Have you talked to Suhr about this yet? I could be misremembering, but I think I recall seeing/hearing somewhere that the impedance curve was designed to match a greenback cab. If it really sounds as bad as you say, maybe there is an issue with the load inside your particular unit?
 
Putting a speaker in the Thru jack overrides the Suhr's internal load, it doesn't run in parallel with it. It's 8 ohms only. You either use the internal load or a speaker, but you can't record silently with a speaker connected. I'm not recording the speaker, I'm recording the mono DI into IRs. It sounds right with a speaker connected, it sounds boomy and scooped without a speaker connected (using the internal load). There can't be any phase issues with a mono signal. It's just the way the load sounds. Every load/speaker makes the line out sound different. I just can't figure out why so many people favor the Suhr RL, because it sounds terrible compared to a real speaker load or a Rivera Mini Rock Rec (just picked up last night). The Mini RR line out -> IRs sounds the way it's supposed to. The mids are present, like they are with speakers, and the bass isn't boosted.
I actually really like thumpy, scooped, chuggy high gain, but the Suhr RL is just excessive. Heavy bass and scooped mids sounds good when you're just playing guitar, but it does not work in a mix at all. The low end gets muddied up with the actual bass, and all you hear is the high end screech. With no mids, it's buried in the mix.
Yes there can be phase issues with a single source. Look at an on board acoustic guitar preamp sometime…see the phase switches on them? It makes a difference in both directions sitting there playing by yourself thru a pa/amplifier. They only have one pickup in most of those guitars too, so its not changing pickup phase. One way has alot more low end than the other. Kinda like reversing the hot and ground on a speaker. One way makes the speaker move forward and other it goes back on the initial transient.

I get that different loads sound different. I have three different ones, PS-2, Hotplate and Rocktron Juice Extractor. Not night and day difference but there is. I only have one amp with a line out, have never tried it so can’t comment on that. You must have some phase issue going on somewhere in your signal chain with the Suhr, your symptoms sure sound like one.

With the Hotplate, the tone switches work backwards when using it on load vs the attenuated modes. Always thought that was odd.
 
Yes there can be phase issues with a single source. Look at an on board acoustic guitar preamp sometime…see the phase switches on them? It makes a difference in both directions sitting there playing by yourself thru a pa/amplifier. They only have one pickup in most of those guitars too, so its not changing pickup phase. One way has alot more low end than the other. Kinda like reversing the hot and ground on a speaker. One way makes the speaker move forward and other it goes back on the initial transient.

I get that different loads sound different. I have three different ones, PS-2, Hotplate and Rocktron Juice Extractor. Not night and day difference but there is. I only have one amp with a line out, have never tried it so can’t comment on that. You must have some phase issue going on somewhere in your signal chain with the Suhr, your symptoms sure sound like one.

With the Hotplate, the tone switches work backwards when using it on load vs the attenuated modes. Always thought that was odd.
A mono signal CANNOT have phase cancelation within itself. There has to be at least 2 signals from the same source for there to be any potential phase misalignment.
I don't know about acoustic pickups... there must be something within them that has a potential, but once the sound is a mono signal in a wire or a mono track in a DAW, it doesn't matter if the phase is 0°, 180°, 73°, or any variance... it simply cannot be out of phase with itself. You can reverse the speaker terminals and the speaker moves in before out, and as long as it's the only speaker (or all the speakers have inverted terminals), it will sound exactly the same as it does when the terminals are the right way. The only way phase cancelation can happen is if there are speakers with different polarity, or if you have 2+ speakers mic'd with different mics/positions/distances, then each track can have slight phase offsets that will cause some cancelation. Or if you mic a speaker and send the line out directly, those are pretty much always out of alignment.
When you have one amp connected to one Suhr RL with the line out into one input/one track in the DAW, there is absolutely NO possibility of any phase issues. And plugging a speaker into the Thru jack is NOT going to change the phase of the line out. But even if it did, it would have absolutely NO effect on the sound in a mono track.
The difference in sound of the line out between the internal load and a speaker load has absolutely nothing to do with phase. I have a phase aligner plugin... I can shift the phase of a mono track by any number of samples and the sound will never change, it will only introduce latency when the shift gets larger than 100 samples. And the latency/phase shift can ONLY cause phase cancelation if there is another track from the same source being mixed with it.
It's just the way the SRL sounds. It sounds like that in demos/comparisons, too. I do actually like a thumpy, scooped, chuggy high gain sound, but it is terrible in a mix: fhe bass gets muddied up with the actual bass and the high end screech is all that cuts thru. You need the mids to cut thru a mix, and you need to roll off the bass. Bass-heavy and mid-scooped sounds good when you're just playing guitar by itself, but in a mix or with a band, you need the mids to be prominent.
I've been an audio engineer for 26 years, I know how things work and I know all about phase and the effect it has on interacting signals. The phase of a solo mono signal has absolutely no effect on the sound, and the way the SRL sounds has nothing at all to do with phase. I don't know what the deal is with the acoustic you mentioned (and I never will because I'll never have an acoustic guitar, I can't stand them), but I know for absolute 100% certain that a mono signal cannot be out of phase with itself.
 
Agreed, not a phase problem. Obviously there's two broad categories to explore: there's either an issue to be corrected, or you just don't like the tone produced by your amp > SRL > IR of choice.

Can't help with the latter but I can confirm the Suhr 'sounds' pretty similar to other loads in its class, i.e. the better reactive loads that model the IC of a 4x12 cab (Fractal, St Rock, Fryette). So I doubt trying a number of these units will solve your issue.

So a few questions for you if you'd like some help troubleshooting.
1. Do you have an 8Ω 4x12 cab handy? If so, you can at least confirm if the both it and the SRL have a similar EQ effect when using an IR.
2. What is the line output of the Suhr connected too? Not sure if you followed up on my suggestion over at TGP via the link to check the input impedance of the preamp you're using.
3. What IR? Have you tried a third-party one that was made in a neutral way? If not, then you'll know that IRs can sound radically different not only depending on the obvious stuff (speaker, cab, mics) but also the method used to create it.

A SRL with an appropriate IR can sound almost identical to a miked cab if everything is done correctly. Assuming you like the sound of a miked 4x12 then best not to write-off the unit until you figured out what the problem is. Good luck & report back.
 
Back
Top