Brutal tones/stock superleads?

[braintheory]

Negative. And, this opinion is why Ted started this thread.
After having 60+ stock, modded Marshalls I disagree big time. My latest comp, was a particularly nasty(in a good way lol) 1969 Nick modded-Aldrich-'FrankenMarshall'. It started life as a 1969 Major, that someone turned into a Superlead with proper 1970s 100w Dagnall transformers. Nick K did his well known 'mutant Aldrich' mod to it, and it killed. Easily up there with the Camerons I've had, if not a little better. Brought it to a Chicago amp fest, and it was one of the top amps there.
But, when I A/Bd it with my stock 72 SuperTrem + Griff's Tone Ripper Dist(BE OD clone), the 69 sounded almost flat in comparison. Not even close. The 72 has this '3D' thing that just slays, whether it's stock, OD boosted or Dist pedal in front.

I challenge any of you who have stock old Superleads, to grab a BE OD clone from Griff and try it. Set the Marshall to clean, then hit the Dist pedal and use the vol on the pedal for your MV. Around noon on the pedal and it's unity gain/vol which is so loud the paint starts peeling from the walls lol.

I think he just meant it doesn’t sound “the same” rather than better or worse and would have to agree there. It’s just IME a different kind of sound than a standalone high gain amp

I’ve been revisiting this method lately since these discussions. I’ll do it with the 72 when I get it back very soon from servicing. With my ‘69 Tremolo 50w I couldn’t get anything I liked much, but did with my 200w Alessandro DAZZ. As expected, none of my standalone regular high gain amps could push air or sound as open as running my preferred pedals through it set clean-low gain (but loud of course). For paint peeling no doubt that would win and there is that MV effect, I think with other pedals I wanna try I can get something even cooler, but then compare to a regular stand alone high gain amp like my Lenz, at first I was a bit underwhelmed in lack of that power/punch, but then the tone, quality of richness in growl on powerchords, feel and overall feeling of connection with the amp is just for me so much better, but I see places for both. I wanna try a V1 RAT through my 72 and revisit an Ampeg SVT. I can see that amp being a monster platform from what I remember of it

 

[acceptance]

Okay, so whats the difference between a super trem and a super lead? They are both model 1959 right? ...And I thought with Marshalls you should ignore the name designations and stick to model #.

Second question: who has tried any of the clones and how do they compare?

 

[Racerxrated]

They have very strong power sections, but not the very strongest I've had. The Beta (680 PV), Blueface, Hell Razor KT150 (680 PV), Rev 1 Uber, Schroeder Dozer (700's PV) when compared IME had even stronger sounding power sections and then some amps about equal like the Alessandro DAZZ, Ronin P88, Mako Dorado. With the other Wizard models I had I’d agree about close, but not there

If I went very deep into the rabbit hole of best pedal platform amps (I am curious now, thanks lol) I'm not sure if these Marshall's would rank #1. There's some contenders like the late '60's/early '70's Ampeg SVT's (300w via 6x6550's) and looking back maybe if we compared more apples to apples using a dist pedal through that IIC+/B Coli's clean channel maybe it could've sounded as big or bigger than the 72 rather than getting flattened vs it's lead ch (IME a dist pedal through a high powered clean always moved a lot more air). I didn't think to try that somehow, but I did through the III++ coli's I had and it sounded huge, I just haven't yet enjoyed much the tone of dist pedals even through these great amps, but the air push of course is hard to ignore

I've tried the rack preamps I had in the past (including the Langner DCP-1) ran this way too and didn't like it for the same reason. It was sort of to me almost like a modeler amp (as I've gotten with all these rack pre's) in terms of lack detail to the sound or receptivity to nuance in playing vs my stand alone amps, but with that huge push/air moving. I do want to try though a V1 RAT through my 72 and other platform amps. Maybe that could be a game changer for me

I think in order to really get what I hear, you need to order a Griff TR/Ban Hammer BE OD clone. Then, run it through your 72 set clean, and your other clean platforms. When you get the power section cooking it's just a destroyer of worlds lol. I get the Marshall mids, thump of that 560v PV, and it's just killer. With your higher wattage amps yes they will even go further than my 72. I'm just reporting on what I hear, with my amps. The Coli thing, it was mostly because the Coli is rather scooped in the mids compared to the Superlead. I honestly only heard the low end of the Coli lol.

The advantage that a good dist pedal has, over any mod, is the amp remains a NMV amp which gives it that more raw/open/more powerful response vs a mod which always adds a MV, which takes away from that power/thump of a stock SL.

 

[Racerxrated]

Okay, so whats the difference between a super trem and a super lead? They are both model 1959 right? ...And I thought with Marshalls you should ignore the name designations and stick to model #.

Second question: who has tried any of the clones and how do they compare?

One is a 1959, the other is a 1959T. The Trem has an extra preamp to run the tremolo circuit. I remove that preamp tube since I don't use the Tremolo. It is the perfect mod platform though; with that extra pre tube ready to be used lol.

Regarding the clone question, I go back to the 1969 Nick Aldrich mod I had. Another RTer had the same mod, by Nick, in a really nice 1968 Clone with Merren transformers, all the good repro caps/resistors. We compared my 69 with 70s Dagnalls to his 68 clone with all the good repro stuff....and it was no contest. The original slayed it. The clone sounded flat, uninspiring...I always say those old Dagnall/Drake transformers are key.

 

[braintheory]

I think in order to really get what I hear, you need to order a Griff TR/Ban Hammer BE OD clone. Then, run it through your 72 set clean, and your other clean platforms. When you get the power section cooking it's just a destroyer of worlds lol. I get the Marshall mids, thump of that 560v PV, and it's just killer. With your higher wattage amps yes they will even go further than my 72. I'm just reporting on what I hear, with my amps. The Coli thing, it was mostly because the Coli is rather scooped in the mids compared to the Superlead. I honestly only heard the low end of the Coli lol.

The advantage that a good dist pedal has, over any mod, is the amp remains a NMV amp which gives it that more raw/open/more powerful response vs a mod which always adds a MV, which takes away from that power/thump of a stock SL.

Yeah with the 200w DAZZ I think many would call it a destroyer of worlds. It was very cool, I just still liked the tone of my other amps more even though they can’t push air like that. I’d think using the coli’s clean ch as a platform could’ve possibly had a chance since the pedals could fill in at least some mids, but that ship has sailed for both of us. I will explore more of this. I’m thinking a late ‘70’s/early ‘80’s V1 RAT through either my 72, DAZZ or Ampeg SVT could be the winners. Will have to see

 

[braintheory]

One is a 1959, the other is a 1959T. The Trem has an extra preamp to run the tremolo circuit. I remove that preamp tube since I don't use the Tremolo. It is the perfect mod platform though; with that extra pre tube ready to be used lol.

Regarding the clone question, I go back to the 1969 Nick Aldrich mod I had. Another RTer had the same mod, by Nick, in a really nice 1968 Clone with Merren transformers, all the good repro caps/resistors. We compared my 69 with 70s Dagnalls to his 68 clone with all the good repro stuff....and it was no contest. The original slayed it. The clone sounded flat, uninspiring...I always say those old Dagnall/Drake transformers are key.

Yeah I’ve been through so many clones and boutique takes on plexi’s. None of them were legit to me, but I do think some were a lot better than that one Jeff had. As far as clones go I think the HW Marshall Reissues I’ve played may have been the best IME. The many Vox and Fender clones I’ve been through weren’t any more convincing. I’d rather see current amp makers try do make something fresh anyway

 

[VESmedic]

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/n8zu...ey=2wpr8cxc8h0lcm9j70klya0jf&st=6evdsmyh&dl=0



There ya go no EQ. Beginning is some delay and effects, no boost or anything. The only thing I do is turn on a horizons precision drive, it’s very obvious when I do. Marshall GT75s, single 57.

I’ll do a 7 string next, just going to pick up a guitar I had lundgrens put in actually.

And here is the 7 string clip: everything exactly the same, except different guitar, and I used the TC preamp in front this time. Incredibly brutal to me and again No eq.

PRS mark holcomb 7 string, Lundgren M7 pickups. Literally just picked up this guitar and this is the first time I’ve played it with these pickups. Fucking love them.


https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/hk82...ey=0hoaal7ei9grbuiinf4fa4rsv&st=el81ws5k&dl=0

 

[VESmedic]

For comparison, recto:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/u3d2...ey=l6upp32bxygd2iaxw10m75aoa&st=gy1bmfom&dl=0

 

[harddriver]

I think he just meant it doesn’t sound “the same” rather than better or worse and would have to agree there. It’s just IME a different kind of sound than a standalone high gain amp

I’ve been revisiting this method lately since these discussions. I’ll do it with the 72 when I get it back very soon from servicing. With my ‘69 Tremolo 50w I couldn’t get anything I liked much, but did with my 200w Alessandro DAZZ. As expected, none of my standalone regular high gain amps could push air or sound as open as running my preferred pedals through it set clean-low gain (but loud of course). For paint peeling no doubt that would win and there is that MV effect, I think with other pedals I wanna try I can get something even cooler, but then compare to a regular stand alone high gain amp like my Lenz, at first I was a bit underwhelmed in lack of that power/punch, but then the tone, quality of richness in growl on powerchords, feel and overall feeling of connection with the amp is just for me so much better, but I see places for both. I wanna try a V1 RAT through my 72 and revisit an Ampeg SVT. I can see that amp being a monster platform from what I remember of it

I have owned a BE OD deluxe and while it was ok and sounded fairly good into my 72 Marshall if felt a bit artificial while playing, it was impressive for what it was but I liked my amps without it so I sold the BE OD deluxe. I was used to the tone and feel I usually get from my amps with a single OD boost and maybe an EQ, I think stacking too many boosts tends to, negatively affect things but Dime did it into the Randalls using an MXR 6band and Furman PQ3/PQ4 and achieved the ultimate brutal tones and the RG100ES is three FET gain stages with 4V zener diodes always in the circuit and the RGT100 tube models were 4 gain stages with 12ax7 tubes.

I just know my 68 plexi is not going to sound exactly like my 79 2203 with the exact same boost pedal like the VFE standout which I use for when I want extremely brutal tones....I forgot to add I picked up the maxon ST9+ pedal in Killertones video and I like that pedal alot, almost as much as my Standout.

 

[braintheory]

I have owned a BE OD deluxe and while it was ok and sounded fairly good into my 72 Marshall if felt a bit artificial while playing, it was impressive for what it was but I liked my amps without it so I sold the BE OD deluxe. I was used to the tone and feel I usually get from my amps with a single OD boost and maybe an EQ, I think stacking too many boosts tends to, negatively affect things but Dime did it into the Randalls using an MXR 6band and Furman PQ3/PQ4 and achieved the ultimate brutal tones and the RG100ES is three FET gain stages with 4V zener diodes always in the circuit and the RGT100 tube models were 4 gain stages with 12ax7 tubes.

I just know my 68 plexi is not going to sound exactly like my 79 2203 with the exact same boost pedal like the VFE standout which I use for when I want extremely brutal tones.

Yeah I thought the BE OD was a fairly generic sounding pedal when I tried it, but it was through a ‘60’s Fender Blackface at the time (super reverb iirc). I’m using now pedals that imo sound much better like my Peace Hill ODS as one example, but I agree it’s still to me not as organic of a sound or feel. With Dime’s setup it’s different because the Furman is more of a boost in use like an od pedal vs the more square wave-y distortion pedal sound

Yeah I love the late ‘70’s 2203’s and the ‘60’s and early ‘70’s Superleads. They both have their own strengths to me that the other can’t match, but currently for stock amps only have a ‘69 Tremolo 50w and ‘72 SuperLead 100w

 

[acceptance]

We compared my 69 with 70s Dagnalls to his 68 clone with all the good repro stuff....and it was no contest.

Please don't tell me that.

 

[Racerxrated]

I have owned a BE OD deluxe and while it was ok and sounded fairly good into my 72 Marshall if felt a bit artificial while playing, it was impressive for what it was but I liked my amps without it so I sold the BE OD deluxe. I was used to the tone and feel I usually get from my amps with a single OD boost and maybe an EQ, I think stacking too many boosts tends to, negatively affect things but Dime did it into the Randalls using an MXR 6band and Furman PQ3/PQ4 and achieved the ultimate brutal tones and the RG100ES is three FET gain stages with 4V zener diodes always in the circuit and the RGT100 tube models were 4 gain stages with 12ax7 tubes.

I just know my 68 plexi is not going to sound exactly like my 79 2203 with the exact same boost pedal like the VFE standout which I use for when I want extremely brutal tones.

I have Griff's version BE OD. I picked up a BE OD to compare. The BE OD is very polite sounding in comparison; a good pedal but I much prefer Griff's version hands down. In fact, the BE was off my board after 30 minutes of comparo time.
If I have to rank the tone out of my 72, straight in/LOUD is of course 1st. But, the gain is limited. Next, a double boost 'might' be a little more organic than the Dist Pedal; but, there's no controlling the volume. Finally the Griff Dist is 3rd but not much different than a double boost; and WAY more saturated.
I'd much rather run the Griff pedal in front than have anyone cut into my amp, add a master + gain stages. With this pedal, it's all there, no need.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Nah... I grew up on 2203's and 2204's. Used them forever and throughout my band days from 1982 - 1992 with them being pushed by an SD-1 and then later pushed even harder by a Furman PQ-3 into a Lexicon PCM41 and then being split into stereo 2204's.

I never could figure out how to get a Super Lead to sound right and we convinced our other guitar player to get rid of his plexi and get an early JCM800. When I finally figured out how to make a Super Lead work right I still had my '79, my '80 and my '81 2204's. I don't have any of them now. I don't miss them.

For me, it isn't even worth disagreeing on because I love both circuits. It is just what my ears hear and I don't like compression. So no argument from me.. just diff ears.

 

[thegame]

 

[Greazygeo]

This seems to vary from amp to amp quite a bit. Some of them (a lot of them ime) are still too farty even with bass on zero and some of them have a nice tightness to them even with bass turned up. Tight for a Super Lead that is.

Right, for sure tolerances etc. Maybe the doom type guys would like that sludgy downtuned kinda thing and it would be ok. On all mine the bass is pretty low even standard tuned. Even with more power supply filtering, bigger diodes / 6550’s, still limited by the output trans I guess. This is vol 6-8 range.

 

[SpiderWars]

Right, for sure tolerances etc. Maybe the doom type guys would like that sludgy downtuned kinda thing and it would be ok. On all mine the bass is pretty low even standard tuned. Even with more power supply filtering, bigger diodes / 6550’s, still limited by the output trans I guess. This is vol 6-8 range.

Yep I ride that 6-8 range where the big ass bright cap still is in play and the output section is still staying together…mostly. You can really dial it in for your particular guitar there.

 

[tallcoolone]

Not including the 2203/2204.

Nonsense. I just picked up a mint ‘87 2204 last weekend with the matching 4x12. Been a while since I’ve had a 80s Marshall. Not a huge fan of the old 75s but the head is badass. Traded a Friedman Smallbox head for the pair and I came out ahead.

 

[Exo-metal]

Nonsense. I just picked up a mint ‘87 2204 last weekend with the matching 4x12. Been a while since I’ve had a 80s Marshall. Not a huge fan of the old 75s but the head is badass. Traded a Friedman Smallbox head for the pair and I came out ahead.

You're missing the point of the whole thread. It's not about if a 2203/2204 can kill it. Congrats on your amp.

 

[Greazygeo]

Yep I ride that 6-8 range where the big ass bright cap still is in play and the output section is still staying together…mostly. You can really dial it in for your particular guitar there.

That big ass bright cap is long gone on my #1. 100pf is my preference. I put the 5k stock one back in my Metalface 69 recently. It is coming back out, freakin’ hate em.

 

[tallcoolone]

You're missing the point of the whole thread. It's not about if a 2203/2204 can kill it. Congrats on your amp.

Thanks man. You responded to a question about a ‘devastating’ power section, not sure what I’m missing? I strongly believe a pedal in front of an old Marshall—meaning anything before 1990—is just as (insert manly adjective here) as any ‘modded’ Marshall. I’ve had too many of them…dozens…and in the end the real deal plus a little ‘mustard’ always does the trick