Buyer drama, lets let rig talk decide.

[jerrydyer]

Here is the scenario. I value the opinions I receive here. Thanks in advance.

In June or early July dude buys amp from me that he played at one of the previous amp show. Approx $1600 for a fully loaded CM 100. Normal price fully loaded $2000.

Customer asks for tube driven loop. No problem.
Tube loop must be true bypass. No problem
Tube loop must be both series and parallel. No problem.
Tube loop needs to be both panel switched and footswitched. No problem.

Amp is built, customized and shipped. Customer receives amp. Less than 24 hours later, he calls and says he's not bonding with the amp. Customer never asked for nor do I offer a money back guarantee at this point. In fact we talked about the difference between the two models and its basically agreed worst case scenario , we switch to the other more aggressive model etc etc.

Day or two goes buy, in which I'm certain he has not taken the time to read the manual otherwise his concerns about the loop would have been answered.

Anyways, customer insists on cash refund so I agree because I wish to keep the best name I can in this crazy business ( futile I know) I am clear with him that it will be like $500 now then some payments. HE AGREES.
SO far I have paid him $750 or $850 not sure. On October 28, he does some sort of credit card charge back. He must have flat out lied to them otherwise they would not have honored it since I have and am paying him. So now there is a negative balance in my pay pal for $1019.00 and some sort of hold or suspension. So it looks like he is trying to get his money back in addition to what I have already paid. His reason was that I didn't respond to his emails quick enough. Last Monday I was sick through the following Thursday. He also has my cell. No calls from him.

I only owe him $750 or $850 Not to mention he is in Massachusetts and shipping was like $!50 . He makes up some excuse about the credit card company screwing up but hasn't done shit to fix it. As of right now pay pal still wants $1019.00

I was very clear it was going to be a few months to get him fully repaid. Now I have to spend who knows how much time making sure paypal doesnt try to jack $1019 from my checking account. I will be informing his credit card company that I have been paying him along with the documentation of payments sent.

I guess everyone who buys and sells products has a couple of these cases. So now I have mine.

What do you guys think?

 

[bionicmark]

Nice of you to post Jerry. I don't like to do things publicly & chose to handle things in a more professional manner. But here we are. I've done hundreds of deals here on Rig Talk & have made several long distant friends along the way. Those of you who know me , know I'm pretty laid back & a nice guy. I'm a 12 year member of eBay w/ over 70 transactions & have 100% feedback since day one. Also several positive transactions on the Gear Page & other forums. So...Jerry's accounts of how things went down are pretty inaccurate & is trying to save face I guess. I had zero interest in making this public or "try to get back at him" by trashing his name all over the forums. As you can see , he started this thread, so now I feel the need to clear up any misconceptions or untruths that appear in Jerry's thread. So..without further adieu... here are the transcripts of emails the way it really went down... Anyone feel free to ask me any questions if they're interested in this matter.

Jerry's first email. Which by the way, only came after Paypal or Visa had got in touch with him. I had emailed him twice about refunding the balance owed , but no response. None of these have been altered in any way..just copied & pasted them here. You'll also notice I put quotations to his questions from his emails & I responded to them below.



From: "jerry dyer" <jerrydyer2003@yahoo.com>
To: "Mark"
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 1:29:09 AM
Subject: Re: Paypal

why are you trying to steal $1050 from me. I was just getting ready to write a $250 check when I saw this. You know Mark, I dont offer anywhere, either written or verbal, a money back guarantee. I only offer store credit IE different model exchange like most. .I did you this HUGE favor and just because its been a little slow (in your opinion not mine) You try to rip me off for $1050? KNowing how much a pay pal dispute can jack up a small business like me? I didnt contact you sir you cntacted me. You played the exact amp and then you didnt like it when it arrived. Instead of working with me on repairs or improvements or modifications, you insisted on your money back . Ive been complying as best I can under the circumstances. You show a $850 balance. are you trying to recoup shipping ? I show I owe you a balance of $650 ..It sounds to me that you havent told pay pal or your credit card company that I have paid you back a substantial amount so far. .I suggest you release the hold and be just a little more patient,.


My response:

From:"Mark"
To: "jerry dyer" <jerrydyer2003@yahoo.com>
Cc: "Mark"
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 11:25:55 PM
Subject: Re: Paypal


Hi Jerry...nice to hear from you. I'll be as polite as possible even though your email was insulting & grossly incorrect. I'll go through your email & hopefully remind you of how things went.

"why are you trying to steal $1050 from me. I was just getting ready to write a $250 check when I saw this."

No one is stealing anything from you. Quite the insult. And as much as I'd like to fire back some of my own , here are the facts:

After waiting over 2 months for a refund that you agreed to , I sent you 2 emails that went unreplied. You claim you were sick. Sick enough not to reply to my emails , but not sick enough to post on threads all over Rig Talk?? Interesting. Yes..I saw your posts.
I called Visa & gave them a very detailed explanation of what had transpired. You had given me $750 towards the $1600 you owed me, with a balance of $850. PERIOD. When I emailed you about the balance owed , you went silent. Hence, the phone call to Visa.
Visa had made an error & refunded me $1050. The reason why they refunded me that dollar amount, is because at the time, that was the balance I owed you when the amp was completed. I used the Visa card as protection for the final purchase. I have since spoken to Visa TWICE explaining to them that you paid me $750 already & the extra $200 they refunded IS NOT MINE , & I'm only owed $850. Be patient , as they're working to correct that.They WILL adjust the amount. NO ONE IS STEALING ANYTHING FROM YOU!

You were going to write me a $250 check?? You owed $850. Not to mention , I gave you the amp back safe & sound on August 2nd! I have been patient & fair enough. Not to mention , I'm seeing you sell two amps on Rig Talk & you could have easily refunded me the balance from those sales.
When the amp was completed , would it have been ok for you to ship the amp to me & I make payments on it?? Of course not!


"I dont offer anywhere, either written or verbal, a money back guarantee. I only offer store credit IE different model exchange like most. .I did you this HUGE favor"

You sent me an amp that had the feet of the output transformer bent over the edge of the chassis! You also forced the amp's back cover on, causing it to bow out a 1/2inch beyond the width of the headshell. Do you think Bogner , Diezel , or Carol Ann amps would have shipped an amp looking like that?? We both know the answer to that...NO! Why would you think that's acceptable? I should have sent it back immediately just based on that alone.
Secondly..I'm not one insult someone's efforts, but in reality, that was one of the noisiest amps I've ever played. Again , unacceptable. So based on these facts alone , the amp was never going to stay in Boston. See attached photo of your amp of the transformer.

"You try to rip me off for $1050? KNowing how much a pay pal dispute can jack up a small business like me"

Another insult...calling me a thief, or "ripping you off". See above paragraph explaining the accidental extra $200 in my charge back. It's being CORRECTED. Visa is fixing it.
Paypal & Visa are there to PROTECT THE BUYER so WE don't get ripped off by small businesses. Who knows when, or if, I would have ever gotten my $850 owed.

"Instead of working with me on repairs or improvements or modifications, you insisted on your money back."

Why would I? You sent me the amp looking & functioning like that thinking it was o.k. to do so. Of course I would want my money back....which YOU offered. Who wouldn't? If you had said "No" , I would have called Visa sooner & we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

"are you trying to recoup shipping ? I show I owe you a balance of $650 "

NOT accurate. And I'm certainly not trying to recoup anything! Would you like me to email you the $750 worth of payments that you Paypal'd to me?? If , yes, I'd be happy to do so! Actually , allow me:



Aug. 12th - payment sent: Jerry Dyer - $500 - Unique Transaction ID # 04H51218JV9512503
Sept. 12th - payment sent: Jerry Dyer - $250 - Unique Transaction ID # 9M6811238W849342T
TOTAL: $750


"It sounds to me that you havent told pay pal or your credit card company that I have paid you back a substantial amount so far. .I suggest you release the hold and be just a little more patient,"

See above statements. I have told Visa everything. They are fully aware that they refunded me an extra $200 & are making the proper adjustments. They have refunded me my funds. I am satisfied with the result. This is now between you & Visa. I am no longer involved in this.

It's too bad it went this way , but I was left no other choice. It is not fair for me to wait months on end for my money. Just like it wouldn't be fair to you if a customer never paid you for an amp.

Mark


Jerry's classy follow up email:

rom: "jerry dyer" <jerrydyer2003@yahoo.com>
To: "Mark"
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 1:37:04 AM
Subject: Re: Paypal

what part of I dont offer a cash refund policy dont you understand???? im doing you a favor. Never once did i go SILENT. I was sick from monday night till thursday morning. Are you telling me you;ve never posted or emailed from your sick bed. . Pay Pal hasnt taken the money from me yet. My account is suspended or on hold. I will be writing a detailed letter to your credit card company letting them know I have been paying you back. They may have a different opinion after that . Dude, you are a dick. Bottom line

My response to the above email:

On Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:58 PM, Mark wrote:

This has zero to do w/ Paypal. Sorry to break the truth to you. I paid via Visa Credit Card. Yes, I've emailed & surfed the internet when I've been sick. I sent two emails during an eight day time period, but you chose NOT to respond. Plain & simple. Shall I send the two emails that went unreplied? You DID indeed offer me a refund. You gave me three choices when I told you I was unhappy w/ the amp.

1. Chose another model
2. Rework or mod the one you gave me.
3. REFUND MY MONEY

I chose the 3rd with good reason.

You can write them a letter. My credit card has already refunded the purchase & credited my card. They WILL remove the extra $200 that is NOT mine as I mentioned several times before. I have already talked to Visa twice & they are appreciative of my honesty. Like I said, I'm no longer involved. You can arrange or work out some kind of payment plan with them. I've been fair & waited long enough.

Thanks for keeping it classy Jerry. Your response shows your professionalism.

Enjoy your evening.

Sent from my iPhone


Jerry's email:

From: "jerry dyer" <jerrydyer2003@yahoo.com>
To: "Mark"
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 2:07:33 AM
Subject: Re: Paypal

Shows your ignorance. Why is pay pal trying to deduct $1019 from my checking account???? You have your head up your ass.


My response to the above:

From: "Mark"
To: "jerry dyer" <jerrydyer2003@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 2:29:33 AM
Subject: Re: Paypal

Honestly , I can't explain that. Maybe Visa is going through Paypal (which is how I sent the funds to you) but I used the Visa card to make the final purchase. Maybe that's how they're trying to get their money back? Through Paypal?
Like I've mentioned several times before , they will adjust the amount to the correct figure ($850)

I won't even respond to your other comment.. . Visa said they'd be in contact with you.





So..there you have it.

Here's a picture Jerry's "awesome" amp that he sent me. Notice the legs of the transformers hanging off the side of the chassis. And as stated before, you had to force the back cover of the amp on. And when you did, the back cover bowed out roughly about 1/2 inch beyond the headshell. The wire mesh was bent around the transformer itself when the cover was on. High quality stuff!!




Like I said..anyone has any questions..please ask. The emails speak for themselves. I'm actually sorry all this was posted here. It seems there's always something going on in Rig Talk. If anything , people can start to see who they'd want to deal w/ when it comes to builders & modders.

 

[Stealthtastic]

Amp guy is nuts for risking his rep like this for such a small amount of money. Calling out customers by there real names isn't cool either...

 

[Rødskjegg]

Oh boy...

 

[tfridgen]

Oh boy...

Michael, such a shit disturber

 

[shgshg]

 

[rlord1974]

I think I'll set up camp here for a while and just watch this unfold.......

 

[RG955TT]

If you agreed to let him return the amp and he did, why wouldn't you just refund all of his money? I don't get the "payment" part, he paid in full right? If so the payment thing is BS. If he returns and you agree then you should have refunded him in full. End of story. Not digging that transformer either, I would not be happy myself if an amp came to me with that setup at all. The credit card chargeback is just the buyer protecting his interests IMO. Lots of small builders fucking over buyers these days, can't say I blame anyone for looking out for themselves with all that's going on.

Run a business? Then run it like a business and all of the buyers money should have been refunded if he returned the amp and seller agreed to it once the amp arrived and was in good condition. Not replying to his emails and then posting on the forum just added to his concerns that he wouldn't see his money paid back in full....my 2 cents for what its worth.

 

[satannica]

This is why I'm so happy with Peavey and Marshall!

Tonnes of great used amps around, and the warranty services on both when you buy new are great even for the UK (which for Peavey is a big deal!)

Not bonding with it? No problem, plenty buyers around!

 

[shgshg]

Caveat emptor. You buy something, it's yours. "Not bonding with it" is bullshit. You bought it. If you're not bonding with it, sell it.

 

[Tone Zone]

 

[Tone Zone]

If you agreed to let him return the amp and he did, why wouldn't you just refund all of his money? I don't get the "payment" part, he paid in full right? If so the payment thing is BS. If he returns and you agree then you should have refunded him in full. End of story. Not digging that transformer either, I would not be happy myself if an amp came to me with that setup at all. The credit card chargeback is just the buyer protecting his interests IMO. Lots of small builders fucking over buyers these days, can't say I blame anyone for looking out for themselves with all that's going on.

Run a business? Then run it like a business and all of the buyers money should have been refunded if he returned the amp and seller agreed to it once the amp arrived and was in good condition. Not replying to his emails and then posting on the forum just added to his concerns that he wouldn't see his money paid back in full....my 2 cents for what its worth.

Agreed here. If you are going to offer (or agree to) a refund at all, you're better off just sending it in full...or else you are just asking for trouble. And, publishing the customer's full name here just to get back at him isn't cool either.

 

[Anonymous]

Caveat emptor. You buy something, it's yours. "Not bonding with it" is bullshit. You bought it. If you're not bonding with it, sell it.

Indeed
It's the buyer's responsability to inquire about return/exchance policies before buying
It's also the seller's responsability to make all those policies clear and available to potential buyers

Not satisfied because the product delivered is not as described? That's another story
Again, the seller should state his policies in those instances

 

[headlessdeadguy]

 

[dooredge]

That looks jakey as all get out. Has anyone ever seen a transformer set like that w/ the tabs bent over the chassis? I haven't.

I feel for Jerry having lost his job awhile back, but man, you can't send crap out and expect people to settle for it just because you need cash. Look at Titan Amps (how not to do business 101) - freaking junk in a box.

A small builder CANNOT afford to send an amp out that is not functionally & cosmetically perfect. All it takes is one bad deal to raise questions about a builders reputation. When that happens, it makes it that much easier for someone to look elsewhere for a custom built amp.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

That looks jakey as all get out. Has anyone ever seen a transformer set like that w/ the tabs bent over the chassis? I haven't.

I feel for Jerry having lost his job awhile back, but man, you can't send crap out and expect people to settle for it just because you need cash. Look at Titan Amps (how not to do business 101) - freaking junk in a box.

A small builder CANNOT afford to send an amp out that is not functionally & cosmetically perfect. All it takes is one bad deal to raise questions about a builders reputation. When that happens, it makes it that much easier for someone to look elsewhere for a custom built amp.

I can see both sides here.. when you buy, unless there is a refund policy or exchange policy, you are kind of stuck with it. (especially seeing as he had already demo'd the amp and played that very one) That said, when you expect to receive a product as described, it shouldn't come with an output tranny bent over the side of the chassis.

Hope this gets sorted out, both seem like good guys. Also the reason by the way, that I just stick with big brand amps. MArshall, peavey, randall etc...., cheaper and easier to flip!

 

[steve_k]

Since you left it to the forum to decide, you were dead wrong to send that out and expect Mark to be anywhere near content, based on appearance alone - regardless of anything else. This has nothing to do with whatever policy you might have and his money should have been returned.

 

[155]

If you agreed to let him return the amp and he did, why wouldn't you just refund all of his money? I don't get the "payment" part, he paid in full right? If so the payment thing is BS. If he returns and you agree then you should have refunded him in full. End of story. Not digging that transformer either, I would not be happy myself if an amp came to me with that setup at all. The credit card chargeback is just the buyer protecting his interests IMO. Lots of small builders fucking over buyers these days, can't say I blame anyone for looking out for themselves with all that's going on.

Run a business? Then run it like a business and all of the buyers money should have been refunded if he returned the amp and seller agreed to it once the amp arrived and was in good condition. Not replying to his emails and then posting on the forum just added to his concerns that he wouldn't see his money paid back in full....my 2 cents for what its worth.

+1 couldnt have said it better, all you have is you reputation..

 

[metalmaniac93]

If you agreed to let him return the amp and he did, why wouldn't you just refund all of his money? I don't get the "payment" part, he paid in full right? If so the payment thing is BS. If he returns and you agree then you should have refunded him in full. End of story. Not digging that transformer either, I would not be happy myself if an amp came to me with that setup at all. The credit card chargeback is just the buyer protecting his interests IMO. Lots of small builders fucking over buyers these days, can't say I blame anyone for looking out for themselves with all that's going on.

Run a business? Then run it like a business and all of the buyers money should have been refunded if he returned the amp and seller agreed to it once the amp arrived and was in good condition. Not replying to his emails and then posting on the forum just added to his concerns that he wouldn't see his money paid back in full....my 2 cents for what its worth.

+1 couldnt have said it better, all you have is you reputation..

+2 That is why I buy most of my gear especially the more expensive ones using a CC.

And let RT decide? It is obvious that you were not in the right as far as the state of the amp that was delievered, refunding in partial payments and putting this out on RT. All of these points are unacceptable!!!

 

[Stealthtastic]

Caveat emptor. You buy something, it's yours. "Not bonding with it" is bullshit. You bought it. If you're not bonding with it, sell it.

I agree but if the amp arrived with obvious defects its unacceptable.