Engl Fireball 100 is easily their best amp - Change My Mind

[TotallyRadGuitars]

And what are engls? Dark? Not even close. They are extremely bright amps. The 5150 is full of low midrange, not high midrange like the engls. The Diezel gets stomped because of its eq curve. That’s not the problem with Engl amps, as stated before they have a shitonnnn of midrange in most of their amps. And as stated just above me, the recto absolutely smokes any Engl I’ve ever heard in a mix, by a mile: it’s a pretty bass heavy and scooped amp.

I don't love these kind of generalizations. I'd call the Retro 50 pretty dark, but the Savage is very bright. I definitely would NOT call the Fireball or Powerball bright amps, maybe the treble is more cutting but they aren't bright amps in the same sense that a JCM800 is "bright." Brightness is usually heard as an upper mids spike around 3khz, which is lower than what I mean when I say "treble," so it might just be a terminology thing.

I don't consider a recto a really scooped amp, at least not the way you usually hear it recorded. I mean, anyone can turn the mids on an amp to zero and make it sound scooped but a recto is not any more naturally scooped than lots of other amps. If you record a DI and run it through both a recto and something else, with the EQ's at noon, and normalize for volume (using software, not your fallible ears), a recto has very strong mids at the same loudness. It just also has boosted bass and highs too, but it's not like a recto has "less" mids than other amps.

I'm considering the purchase of a Fireball 100 and stumbled upon this thread via Google... I've been wondering how similar the Powerball really is as I'd like to be able to run a decent crunch that cleans up with the volume knob and the Powerball seems as though it'd be better at that since it has more range on its Crunch gain than the Fireball does on the Clean. I found schematics for each of them (Fireball here and Powerball II here) and might take a look at them later to see if there are any obvious differences. I know that everybody says that the Fireball sounds "rawer", "more open", etc. but an quantitative evaluation of the two circuits might help to close the gap for those of us that don't have both next to each other for comparison.

I say all this to say that if anybody who isn't a total hack (e.g. me) when it comes to electronics wants to take a look in the meantime and report back on the circuits' differences I think it'd be super helpful to the conversation.

Howdy, that schematic is for the Powerball I, not the II. You can tell by the 2-channel 2-mode configuration, as opposed to having 4 separate gain controls.

Speaking strictly on the lead channels, they are both 4 gain stage designs with nearly identical topology and bias values. The biggest differences are in the EQ and the Powerball which has a "Lead Lo" and "Lead Hi" mode, which you'll mostly hear via a switch situated between the 2nd and 3rd gain stages (when in Hi, more gain available through those stages, as the name implies). If I had to guess that 4th gain stage is mostly just adding compression and not a lot of what we guitar players would feel as "gainy."

The next really big difference is the EQ. the Powerball has two mids controls ("Open" and "Focused"), and the values elsewhere in the EQ section are slightly different than the Fireball, probably because the Powerball has a separate EQ section for the clean/crunch channel. The Mids on the Fireball 100 has a 68nf cap, the Fireball 60 schematic has a 47nf in the same spot, but the Powerball has two, a 22nf and a 100nf (so either extreme around the fireball). Lower value is brighter/wider or more "open."

Clean channels are both 3 stages, the Powerball again has a switch which allows more gain through between stages 2 and 3 similar to the way lead 1/2 work. The most notable difference here is that the Powerball has a completely separate EQ section with different values for the clean/crunch channels, whereas the Fireball has to compromise with one EQ section using the same values for both clean/lead. The most obvious difference I can see at a glance is the mids control again, which on the Powerball clean has a very bright/open 10nf cap.

Long story short, they are EXTREMELY similar. Basically the same amp, the powerball just has a few extra features tacked on. You're going to get the same core tone on the lead channel from both of them, and even the cleans will be similar. Depending on how you dial the EQ, they can be made to sound close to identical, and if you really cared (and you could find the correct location on the PCB, which is another whole story), you could modify one or two select values on the Powerball to match the EQ of the Fireballs.

I'm too dumb to understand power amps well enough to talk about them in detail yet. Also I might have a Powerball II schematic, I need to check my archive but I'm at work.

*This assessment is just from my point of view as a hobbyist that likes schematics. Sometimes the schematics are wrong. Sometimes I am wrong too!
Cheers and welcome to Rig Talk

 

[Rex Rocker]

I don't 100% disagree with you... but this makes no sense.

If you record a DI and run it through both a recto and something else, with the EQ's at noon, and normalize for volume (using software, not your fallible ears), a recto has very strong mids at the same loudness. It just also has boosted bass and highs too, but it's not like a recto has "less" mids than other amps.

If you normalize the volume, and it comes out as having more bass and treble, then it has less mids.

Like I said, I don't diagree with you. A Recto has like 79347398743937294739 different sounds in it while some other amps have like 1 or 2. Vintage is certainly more mid-forward than Modern, and you have orange and red on top of that, but sometimes people try to "defend" amps as "not being scooped" just because they want to fit the modern forum "standard" of "more mids is better". I'm not assuring that's what you're doing, but that's what it's coming across like to me. A Recto sounds good, and it sounds better than most other amps doing the scooped thing. Nothing wrong with recognizing that. A Recto sits fine in a mix even while being scooped. A Recto is loud enough to play in a band with even if it's scooped. Not all sounds have to be mid-forward to be good.

 

[VESmedic]

I don't 100% disagree with you... but this makes no sense.



If you normalize the volume, and it comes out as having more bass and treble, then it has less mids.

Like I said, I don't diagree with you. A Recto has like 79347398743937294739 different sounds in it while some other amps have like 1 or 2. Vintage is certainly more mid-forward than Modern, and you have orange and red on top of that, but sometimes people try to "defend" amps as "not being scooped" just because they want to fit the modern forum "standard" of "more mids is better". I'm not assuring that's what you're doing, but that's what it's coming across like to me. A Recto sounds good, and it sounds better than most other amps doing the scooped thing. Nothing wrong with recognizing that. A Recto sits fine in a mix even while being scooped. A Recto is loud enough to play in a band with even if it's scooped. Not all sounds have to be mid-forward to be good.

Midrange: the most fucking overrated shit in guitars of all time.


No, your 5150 ( mids) with a TS (mids) and EMGs with your recto cab ( lots of mids) and sm57 ( super duper mids) does not need its fucking midrange knob on 6, or even 5 or 4. It’s asinine, boxy, and shitty. Believe it or not, there ARE other instruments in a mix that need to be heard, and vocals


I’ve got a ton of thoughts on the post above yours, but I don’t have the time right now.

 

[Rex Rocker]

Honestly, yeah. It's like Josh Middleton has to repeat the same disclaimer like "I run the mid knob low because... " like he's trying to prevent the forum you need mids to cut through the mix police from backlashing.

 

[VESmedic]

Honestly, yeah. It's like Josh Middleton has to repeat the same disclaimer like "I run the mid knob low because... " like he's trying to prevent the forum you need mids to cut through the mix police from backlashing.

Literally exactly what I was thinking of as well haha. But he’s so right, and finally someone fucking said it and says it often. It’s not that Mids aren’t brutal or cool or whatever, it’s getting the RIGHT midrange and the right amount of it is what matters. That’s what people are missing. It’s like there’s this idea that, well as long as my guitar has enough fucking midrange to sound like a duck inside of a cardboard box, im doing it right and my tone will be awesome!…..


It’s not awesome. It sucks. Also I’m mixing a sylosis tube right now for fun, morin modded Marshall sounds fucking insane with Josh’s playing.

 

[Bram576]

Honestly, yeah. It's like Josh Middleton has to repeat the same disclaimer like "I run the mid knob low because... " like he's trying to prevent the forum you need mids to cut through the mix police from backlashing.

Yeah this is the mids at 2, and it’s still PLENTY. Presence at like 9… Because the 5150 presence knob doesn’t do anything until 8.

Idk where the fuck the 666 setting came from, but it sounds like asshole.

 

[311splawndude]

 

[MetalThrasher]

Very good and interesting thread! Sorry to go off topic but how would an Engl Fireball hang with a Mark V or VII?

 

[nightlight]

I think the difference is that those are recordings with the mids at 2. I'm pretty sure that if you run an amp at *normal* gig volumes with the mids at 2, you will be swallowed whole and "destroyed" by the other guitarist.

As you said, it's all about getting the right midrange. But there are so many variables - your speakers, your guitar and its pups, the tone you are aiming for.

Saying that "this is the way to dial in an amp" seems really presumptuous.

Anyhow, I think we're going way off topic on this one. Here's the other Engl I own, a Savage 120. Pardon the weird resonances in this, I busted out my plexi glass shields and mutes in order to get something usable in my small apartment.

The amp is going into an Emperor 4x12 with Governors and Tankers. The cab is miced up with a Sennheiser E906 and a Townsend Labs Sphere on one of the ribbon mic models.

Headphones recommended, cause the volume is pretty low.

 

[Rex Rocker]

I think the difference is that those are recordings with the mids at 2. I'm pretty sure that if you run an amp at *normal* gig volumes with the mids at 2, you will be swallowed whole and "destroyed" by the other guitarist.

Not if the other guitarist sets the amp to fit the mix rather than to sit on top of everything.

Saying that "this is the way to dial in an amp" seems really presumptuous.

I agree. But the whole "you need mids to cut through the mix" falls into that same attitude, just the other way around.

 

[Bram576]

Not if the other guitarist sets the amp to fit the mix rather than to sit on top of everything.

This times 1000. A band is a team. This is exactly what separates amateurs from pros. That other guitar player cranking the absolute shit out of them is overriding the vocalist, and snare drum. Making himself heard over anyone else in the band, and collectively making it sound like shit.

Mixing other peoples stuff, and I’ll say guitar players are the absolute worst about this… being that I’m one of them. Want guitars WAYYYY too loud in a mix typically. I always have to remind myself of this and put them quieter than I think, then it actually turns out as a good mix lol.

 

[VESmedic]

I think the difference is that those are recordings with the mids at 2. I'm pretty sure that if you run an amp at *normal* gig volumes with the mids at 2, you will be swallowed whole and "destroyed" by the other guitarist.

As you said, it's all about getting the right midrange. But there are so many variables - your speakers, your guitar and its pups, the tone you are aiming for.

Saying that "this is the way to dial in an amp" seems really presumptuous.

Anyhow, I think we're going way off topic on this one. Here's the other Engl I own, a Savage 120. Pardon the weird resonances in this, I busted out my plexi glass shields and mutes in order to get something usable in my small apartment.

The amp is going into an Emperor 4x12 with Governors and Tankers. The cab is miced up with a Sennheiser E906 and a Townsend Labs Sphere on one of the ribbon mic models.

Headphones recommended, cause the volume is pretty low.

I don’t think anyone is saying you have to dial in an amp like this necessarily, but I am definitely saying a smaller part of a bigger conversation that @Bram576 nailed. Guitarists are egotistical narcissistic dickheads in bands. Your instrument covers the entire frequency spectrum and is essentially white noise that eats up a lot of sonic space; and then on TOP of that, you think you have to be louder than everyone. And people wonder why FOH guys hate us. There is zero chance in hell you are getting eaten live with a 5150 and the Mids on 2, it’s just not going to happen. Furthermore, it’s not like the controls on an amp like that do THAT much in comparison to what an FOH Can do etc. you aren’t going to inherently change everything about that amp, regardless of what speakers you are using, it’s gonna be heard just fine, Mids on even zero and all. My 5150 with the midrange knob on zero smoked any Engl regardless of its settings. And it will every time.

 

[angelspade]

I don't love these kind of generalizations. I'd call the Retro 50 pretty dark, but the Savage is very bright. I definitely would NOT call the Fireball or Powerball bright amps, maybe the treble is more cutting but they aren't bright amps in the same sense that a JCM800 is "bright." Brightness is usually heard as an upper mids spike around 3khz, which is lower than what I mean when I say "treble," so it might just be a terminology thing.

I don't consider a recto a really scooped amp, at least not the way you usually hear it recorded. I mean, anyone can turn the mids on an amp to zero and make it sound scooped but a recto is not any more naturally scooped than lots of other amps. If you record a DI and run it through both a recto and something else, with the EQ's at noon, and normalize for volume (using software, not your fallible ears), a recto has very strong mids at the same loudness. It just also has boosted bass and highs too, but it's not like a recto has "less" mids than other amps.

This is correct.

 

[angelspade]

Midrange: the most fucking overrated shit in guitars of all time.


No, your 5150 ( mids) with a TS (mids) and EMGs with your recto cab ( lots of mids) and sm57 ( super duper mids) does not need its fucking midrange knob on 6, or even 5 or 4. It’s asinine, boxy, and shitty. Believe it or not, there ARE other instruments in a mix that need to be heard, and vocals


I’ve got a ton of thoughts on the post above yours, but I don’t have the time right now.

When I recorded with Logan Mader from Machine Head, he actually had me run through the "Burn My Eyes" 5150 that he recorded and toured with. Many consider this album tone to be one of THE metal tones that many shoot for when using a 5150. He had the mids set between 5 and 6. I insisted on pushing them back to between 3 - 4 as this is where I usually played live and rehearsed....And I felt it sounded "heavier" and more "brutal" (that's the tone I was going for back then). But in the end, he was right (as producers often are), Mids at just past 5 and the gain backed off a bit had better cut, clarity and punch in the mix. The second rhythm track he had me record was a Dual Recto in vintage mode (yes vintage mode), and again mids at around noon. I love how heavy my amps sound and "feel" at low volume at home with the gain pushed and the mids sucked out. I especially enjoyed this with my Diezel Herbert, as it really excels at this with the mid-cut function engaged. But unfortunately with guitars being a mid-based instrument (generally speaking) this type of EQ profile doesn't pragmatically perform very well in the real world (studio and stage). Many will disagree, but that has been my experience.

 

[Rex Rocker]

I understand people like to set their amps differently, and that's totally respectable.

But personally, the mid knob on a Recto in Modern mode scoops out the right frequencies for me to like to run it well below noon. And running it above noon doesn't really make it sound less scooped, just... bad, LOL. Like it brings out all the wrong kinds of mids.

Personally, if I get a Recto, I'd want it for that Recto sound. It's cool that it does other sounds as well, but I mean... I wouldn't get a JCM800 and want to use it for a sound with thunderous earthshaking sublows.

 

[Rex Rocker]

But in the end, he was right (as producers often are), Mids at just past 5 and the gain backed off a bit had better cut, clarity and punch in the mix.

Logan Mader was producing?

Because the Andy Sneap 5150 are with the mids at 2, I think. I wouldn't have thought Colin Richardson's, who is responsible for Burn My Eye, wouldn't be much different.

But unfortunately with guitars being a mid-based instrument (generally speaking)

Not really. I think that's kind of a widespread myth. I mean, as far as leads and high notes, yeah. They get towards what midrange knobs on guitar amps control. But almost everything in the lowest two strings is in the bass range of what a bass knob controls on an amp.

I don't meant to come off as I want to tell you how you should dial in your guitar. Everyone likes things differently. But the whole "you need your mids above noon or else it doesn't work live" is not an absolute set truth either.

 

[VESmedic]

When I recorded with Logan Mader from Machine Head, he actually had me run through the "Burn My Eyes" 5150 that he recorded and toured with. Many consider this album tone to be one of THE metal tones that many shoot for when using a 5150. He had the mids set between 5 and 6. I insisted on pushing them back to between 3 - 4 as this is where I usually played live and rehearsed....And I felt it sounded "heavier" and more "brutal" (that's the tone I was going for back then). But in the end, he was right (as producers often are), Mids at just past 5 and the gain backed off a bit had better cut, clarity and punch in the mix. The second rhythm track he had me record was a Dual Recto in vintage mode (yes vintage mode), and again mids at around noon. I love how heavy may amps sound and "feel" at low volume at home with the gain pushed and the mids sucked out. I especially enjoyed this with my Diezel Herbert, as it really excels at this with the mid-cut function engaged. But unfortunately with guitars being a mid-based instrument (generally speaking) this type of EQ profile doesn't pragmatically perform very well in the real world (studio and stage). Many will disagree, but that has been my experience.

My closest friend in the world is one of the best audio engineers in the genre and has done many records here people idolize and revere…. He’s never ever set his 5150s mids past 3 on a record, usually around 2… and this is a guy who has done many, many records, on par with influence as machine heads burn my eyes. Christ even Van Halen himself didn’t run the mids over 2-2.5….

However, there are tons of variable on this. I believe that 5150 was modded wasn’t it? The green channel ( that machine head often uses), is also much more scooped sounding and less saturated in the midrange than the red channel. That record was also recorded with Marshall cabs, which are much more scooped sounding than the typical Mesa recto cab. So in that sense, I completely disagree about the logic here, but we all have our opinions. We all know the guitar is a midrange instrument, and no matter what you do, it’s gonna stay there. My point is, it sure as all fuck doesn’t need more than what most modern signal chains supply, you know?

 

[angelspade]

Logan Mader was producing?

Because the Andy Sneap 5150 are with the mids at 2, I think. I wouldn't have thought Colin Richardson's, who is responsible for Burn My Eye, wouldn't be much different.


Not really. I think that's kind of a widespread myth. I mean, as far as leads and high notes, yeah. They get towards what midrange knobs on guitar amps control. But almost everything in the lowest two strings is in the bass range of what a bass knob controls on an amp.

I don't meant to come off as I want to tell you how you should dial in your guitar. Everyone likes things differently. But the whole "you need your mids above noon or else it doesn't work live" is not an absolute set truth either.

Yes, Logan was producing. I am relaying my experience accurately...Not asking you to agree. If you are going for that 5150 "Heartwork" tone (which I love) sure...set the mids around 2 and push the prescience and resonance. I personally have not had success with that EQ profile live...Or recording. If you have, then great. As far as guitar not being a mid-based instrument...I believe that consideration is "widespread" as you put it, because it's primarily based in fact.

Richardson used more mids than may believe (according to Logan and others I know), and Sneap would run the mids around 2 -3, but add back upper mid content with a boost. Below are his go-to settings:

5150 mark 1 setting by Andy Sneap:

Lead channel
Pre 11 oclock
Low 1 oclock ish
Mid 9 oclock ish
High 11.30ish
Post 9.30, 10 oclock
Res 2 oclock
Pres 3 o clock

Tube screamer
Drive 9 oclock
Tone 11 oclock
Level 12 o clock

 

[angelspade]

My closest friend in the world is one of the best audio engineers in the genre and has done many records here people idolize and revere…. He’s never ever set his 5150s mids past 3 on a record, usually around 2… and this is a guy who has done many, many records, on par with influence as machine heads burn my eyes. Christ even Van Halen himself didn’t run the mids over 2-2.5….

However, there are tons of variable on this. I believe that 5150 was modded wasn’t it? The green channel ( that machine head often uses), is also much more scooped sounding and less saturated in the midrange than the red channel. That record was also recorded with Marshall cabs, which are much more scooped sounding than the typical Mesa recto cab. So in that sense, I completely disagree about the logic here, but we all have our opinions. We all know the guitar is a midrange instrument, and no matter what you do, it’s gonna stay there. My point is, it sure as all fuck doesn’t need more than what most modern signal chains supply, you know?

We did use the green channel (although I protested), but the amp was not modified (to my knowledge). But we did uses a Mesa cab in this instance. If people prefer the mids on a 5150 at 2 or below, go for it. That said, I have witnessed several "name" producers push the mids on these amps to 4 and 5. My live tone always worked best with the mids at 4. To each his own.

 

[Rex Rocker]

Yes, Logan was producing. I am relaying my experience accurately...Not asking you to agree.

I am not disagreeing with you. Just trying to understand what you mean. Because according to credits, Logan didn't produce Burn my Eyes.

As far as guitar not being a mid-based instrument...I believe that consideration is "widespead" as you put it, because it's primarily based in fact.

On what fact? This is a guitar's frequency chart: