Explain modes to me. :)

[glassjaw7]

OK, now here's the short answer:

It's the major scale played from each different note.

 

[Viesczy]

Viesczy's response was kind of right, but it took me a few minutes to understand that all of his examples were based on C being the mode scale in each case....not the KEY. His examples were playing in the C Phrygian mode (same notes as Ab Major Scale), C Lydian (same notes G Major Scale), C Aolean (Same notes as Eb Major Scale) and C Mixolydian (Same notes as F Major Scale)

He also mentioned that "modes are like playing different keys within the key that you are playing in" which is actually confusing and incorrect. A better description would be "Modes are like playing different scales within the Key that you are playing in". The Ionian Mode is always the Major Scale of the Key you are playing in.....and Aolean Mode is always the relative minor scale of the key you are playing in.

I am not nitpicking Viesczy.....it is just very important to know that each mode is a different scale from the key you are playing in and the backing tracks that you are soloing over must be chord progressions that fit into the KEY you are playing in.

Hopefully, this helps people to understand that basic theory is needed before one can truly get their minds around "modes". However, it also isn't necessary to fully understand. Just continue to play what sounds good to you. Chances are you are already playing several modes....and just didn't know it and that is perfectly fine as well.

Hope this helps.

DG,
Awesome post!

IMO if that is what a musician is thinking about, they're overthinking it a little too much as music is expression! If you think it sounds amazing to play Abs over w/e is playing, that is what counts as it is your expression. Worrying on how the particular mode is formed via WHW steps and such is defeating the purpose of music: to express ourselves.

As long as you know the Ionian of what you're playing in and how to make the w/e mode off of the Ionian, have at it as the more you experiment within the modes and the progression(s) you'll hear what you think is pleasing and develop your own voice on your particular instrument. Each mode has its own feel to it, giving a dark, somber, light, joyful mood to the progression; now using those moods via the modes is the expression that as artists we strive to achieve.

Now applying this all to guitar and the fretboard, we're looking @ geometry really. You get your hands as two intergrated machines that play the notes our minds/ears/hearts like, but the arrangement of notes is simply shapes (geometry) and by having two great machines (our hands) we then can shift the positions within what we're playing to achieve the end we hear.

Music in many ways is math, both are languages, but there are few limitations within music as it isn't used to build bridges, Space Shuttles, and such. Example, I know how to do mathematical functions, but I've not memorized all math tables out to infinity as I know how to workout the answers (w/o a calc) if needed. Same with modes, know how they are based of the Ionian, and from that we can form any and every we want. With their known geometry we can then shift back and forth like a werewolf shifting its shape, and not thinking/worrying on mode mixo to phyr or w/e but actually concentrating on music because we already know what each mode's voice/shape is w/o having to think too much about it.

The only must in music is that you must enjoy w/e you're expressing. If you're not, rub a little funk on it, think a little less, feel a lot more, use all the technique that you've spent hours perfecting and let notes fall where they may!

Derek

 

[dgaemc2]

glasjaw7: Hilarious

I would like to add my "short answer" to your post....albeit not as short as yours, but definitely short for me!

When playing chord progressions that fit in a specific Major key.....each modal scale (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, etc.) does contain the exact same notes as the Major scale of the chosen key, but just starts and stops at a different tonic center of the Major scale notes of the chosen key. That's my short answer to your reply.

Viesczy: I agree that trying to fully understand how the modal scales, chords or even single notes mesh with the key the song is written in is ridiculous to do while playing. In fact, I mentioned that I don't even attempt to do this when I play.

However, after learning the chord progressions and lead parts to any given song by ear (or tab), and then analyzing what key it is in and what scales and/or modes were used has been a valuable experience for me in my understanding of how different modal scales work over certain chord progressions regardless of the style of music one prefers....pop, country, rock, etc. I have often been able to determine the mode or modes (after initially determining what key the song was written in) that were used by the guitar soloist based on my musical theory knowledge. This has been valuable to me over the years because NOW I can often times easily recognize certain modes that are used in songs just by listening to them for the first time. This is helpful to me because it helps me to have a good starting point while "figuring out more complicated leads by ear" of new songs that I wish to learn.

Did I mention that I HATE learning songs using tab!

 

[Viesczy]

DG,
Most definitely the ability to hear the mode against the progession is invaluable! The feel, the color, the power, and the emotion that the mode generates over said progression is clear to the listener, and then it is our experience that kicks in.

Having so many years of sight reading music (I started on organ and playing Bach prior to switching to guitar) I'm a reader, not of tab but of music. I loathe tab as it is the notes how someone fingered something out. If all I have is tab, I'll go with it, learn the positions and then move the notes.

Now as for fingering out by ear, with all the organ based sigh read music and hearing the colors/seeing the geometry, I am seriously lacking in the ear department.

Derek

 

[dgaemc2]

Viesczy:

Trust me, I can relate to what you are saying. I started my musical journey playing the piano at the age of about 7. My piano teacher(s) taught me some music theory, but mostly taught me to read and play classical music....Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, etc....

I also played an instrument in band during my intermediate and high school years....which further taught me key signatures, music reading, time signatures, etc..., but in my band years it was about reading individual notes for my instrument.....no chords or music theory at all.

I bought my first guitar at the age of about 22.....the only thing I focused on was trying to simple chords on the guitar without sounding bad!

As a guitar player over the past 20 years, I have been able to develop my "ears" to listening to a song that I wish to learn on guitar.....and closely replicate it. While my "versions" of the songs aren't always exactly right......they are usually very close just by using my ears....and still sound very good for the chord progressions that are being played by the rhythm guitar player for the song.

I will say.....the more you "rely" on your ears to learn a guitar part of a song.....the better you will become at using your "ears" to learn songs!

Hope this helps and best of luck.

 

[tfridgen]

Irritated =======================IONIAN
Dry====================DORIAN
Pussies=====================PHRYGIAN
Like======================LYDIAN
Mosturizer======================MIXOLYDIAN
And=====================AOLEAN
Lube====================LOCRIAN

Yeehaw, this is fun!!!!!!!!!

 

[dfrattaroli]

It =======================IONIAN
Definitely====================DORIAN
Pheels=====================PHRYGIAN
Like======================LYDIAN
My======================MIXOLYDIAN
Ass=====================AOLEAN
Leaks====================LOCRIAN

 

[Ventura]

To Degenaro, DG & glpg80...

THANK YOU for taking the time to enter such detailed posts. I'm always lurking on this side of RT, watching, picking up tricks, etc. But the content in this particular thread is definitely warranting a double thumbs up!!

I hope to be training with Carl in the very near future (Roa that is). I need to break out of my plateau and learn anew, and much of this will do with a better understanding of the guitar and music theory itself.

Peace,
V.

 

[Little B]

Let me tell you how learning the modes have helped me over the years...For me anyways, by learning the modes, my pay scale in the studio and live w/ bands has increased 5 times over vrs if I didnt know them...knowing them has got me better live sessions, plus more session work in general...
There is a guy in my hometown that can bury me w/ his technique & chops(and thats even after i fire out my meanest Dimeola lick).....BUT he has no idea what hes doing-take him w/ya when youre trying out axes and amps at your local GC and youll impress the sale rep, but thats about it.....Now, we are both good friends and he is a decent dude...but because(at least in this town) he doesnt know modes/theory....he doesnt get much work...and he may be happy w/ that-I dunno...
knowing modes has literally funded a lot of my purchases!,,,,,,now I will say that in most senarios,out of the 7 modes,only a few seem to be the ones that warrant a lot of use......&...I saw some good mode explanation on video from Vinnie Moore, and Bruce Bulleit of Racer x..have fun!!

 

[glpg80]

Let me tell you how learning the modes have helped me over the years...For me anyways, by learning the modes, my pay scale in the studio and live w/ bands has increased 5 times over vrs if I didnt know them...knowing them has got me better live sessions, plus more session work in general...
There is a guy in my hometown that can bury me w/ his technique & chops(and thats even after i fire out my meanest Dimeola lick).....BUT he has no idea what hes doing-take him w/ya when youre trying out axes and amps at your local GC and youll impress the sale rep, but thats about it.....Now, we are both good friends and he is a decent dude...but because(at least in this town) he doesnt know modes/theory....he doesnt get much work...and he may be happy w/ that-I dunno...
knowing modes has literally funded a lot of my purchases!,,,,,,now I will say that in most senarios,out of the 7 modes,only a few seem to be the ones that warrant a lot of use......&...I saw some good mode explanation on video from Vinnie Moore, and Bruce Bulleit of Racer x..have fun!!

it definately shows when you can play them confidently and naturally - your phrasing gets better as well, and arpeggios fall into place. the biggest jump for me was inverting chordes and phrases in different locations and finding out that it all fits together. theory has always been the founding way to convey what you are trying to say with music - without it you are a boat without a compass - you can go fast or slow but you wont get anywhere

yeah i learned alot of the basis from bruce bouilett as well - him and paul gilbert are iconic in the theory that i know which isnt as much as some here but im pretty well covered.

 

[Little B]

perfectly said....thats right...a little bit of theory knowledge is just plain good ol fun! Very rewarding......

 

[glpg80]

perfectly said....thats right...a little bit of theory knowledge is just plain good ol fun! Very rewarding......

do you seriously run both 2150's at the same time and run 8 cabinets in your rig? or are some of them only for stage presence/studio?

 

[King Crimson]

...Cb is the same as B#

You sure about this?

 

[glpg80]

...Cb is the same as B#

You sure about this?

its correct

 

[degenaro]

...Cb is the same as B#

You sure about this?

Nice catch, there was a second one in there too... Fb=E#

To correct him...
Cb=B
B#=C
Fb=E
E#=F

 

[glpg80]

then i stand corrected

fixed!

 

[Hollywood]

This was a Killer read guys. Thanks to the contributors in the thread. WOW!

 

[guitarman967]

Modes are easy. Dont get wrapped up in them.
Have an E minor progression or riff that uses F5 or Fmajor?
Use Phyrgian.
Why? Because it's exactly like the minor scale except it includes the b2 instead of the 2.
If you understand that, then you understand how to use modes.

 

[King Crimson]

...Cb is the same as B#
its correct

C flat = B sharp?]

 

[King Crimson]

...Cb is the same as B#

You sure about this?

Nice catch, there was a second one in there too... Fb=E#

To correct him...
Cb=B
B#=C
Fb=E
E#=F

Thanks Ed. I'm no music theory buff, but I think I can read notes correctly.