Guthrie Govan on Going 'Fully' Digital: 'It Forced Me to Think in New Ways'

[headlessdeadguy]

No, my energy is:

they use modelers because they play 200 stadium dates a year and they save fuckloads of money on cartage and roadies. and unless you, also, random RTer, play 200 stadium dates a year, your comment about iron maiden and Metallica using them and that making it the obvious choice is fucking retarded

How does using a modeler vs a rack, head and a couple of cabs save that much money? Asking for a friend. Doesn't the sound system have to be the same to provide enough power for a stadium?

 

[Devin]

 

[Racerxrated]

How does using a modeler vs a rack, head and a couple of cabs save that much money? Asking for a friend. Doesn't the sound system have to be the same to provide enough power for a stadium?

The sound system is usually the responsibility of the venue. So, instead of hauling 12-18 4x12 cabs around, and whatever Bass rig they simply bring 1 rack per player, and the monitor system that each needs to hear him/herself. Which could simply be in ears. To me that's 1000s of lbs they don't have to haul anymore. At least when it comes to arena bands like Maiden.

Edit: Festival sound systems are brought in by the festival...for instance, here in Wi for Country/Rock fest it's an outside company the the Festival pays for sound/lights. Not sure about other venues though.

 

[headlessdeadguy]

The sound system is usually the responsibility of the venue. So, instead of hauling 12-18 4x12 cabs around, and whatever Bass rig they simply bring 1 rack per player, and the monitor system that each needs to hear him/herself. Which could simply be in ears. To me that's 1000s of lbs they don't have to haul anymore. At least when it comes to arena bands like Maiden.

I don't follow bands such as Maiden or Metallica but don't they still have the huge backline of dummy cabs ? Large festivals here in the US usually consist of the same backline for most of the bands don't they?

 

[TheGreatGreen]

When I had my AX8 I ran it through a powered monitor; then through the FX return of my C+ Coli, cab sim off, then through a Strategy 400, same, then through an HH V800. It did sound monstrous through the big power amps/cabs as expected; but still lacked the feel of any of my tube amps...better though with the tube power.
It did sound good though, and the FX were also very good. But until a modeler can somehow figure out the feel, I won't be grabbing one unless I need something for a grab/go rig.

See, this is a good and interesting, fair take! Your experience is completely valid because it sounds like you gave the modeler a fair shot and decided it wasn't for you.

One thing though just to get it out of the way, the AX8 was from a generation or two back. You might be surprised how much improvement has been made since then with the latest Fractal stuff. Personally I don't find anything about the feel of the modeling in the Axe 3 to be lacking. I realize "just get the latest and greatest one!" and/or "but this time it's even more real-er!" is something anybody can always just spout back but in this case I actually believe it. I've had an Axe UItra and Axe 2, so I can say from first hand experience that the 3 really is on another level compared to the previous iterations. Again not saying you're wrong, just that you might do yourself a favor to not totally write off modeling altogether because of previous generations.

How does using a modeler vs a rack, head and a couple of cabs save that much money? Asking for a friend. Doesn't the sound system have to be the same to provide enough power for a stadium?

The cost of hauling around the big tube rigs, even just to drive them across the country in trucks, can be exorbitantly expensive these days. A single floor modeler or two-space rack unit that weighs 10 pounds can save a metric ton of shipping cost, comparatively.

 

[DanTravis62]

How does using a modeler vs a rack, head and a couple of cabs save that much money? Asking for a friend. Doesn't the sound system have to be the same to provide enough power for a stadium?

I don't follow bands such as Maiden or Metallica but don't they still have the huge backline of dummy cabs ? Large festivals here in the US usually consist of the same backline for most of the bands don't they?

Racer already answered, but think of the difference just in WEIGHT between 8 full stacks and the same in particle board dummy cabs

And now think of the difference in price between shipping things of those different weights

Also, think about the number of roadies it would take to setup and tear down 8-16 full stacks in a short period of time - at least 10 - along with sound engineer, guitar techs, pyro techs, etc

Now, with a modeler setup, they only need perhaps 2-3 roadies to setup the particle board dummy cabinets, pyro, and stage effects

That's at least half as small a crew, along with much less in shipping/cartage/etc


THAT is why iron maiden and Metallica use modelers

 

[TheGreatGreen]

I don't follow bands such as Maiden or Metallica but don't they still have the huge backline of dummy cabs ? Large festivals here in the US usually consist of the same backline for most of the bands don't they?

I don't think Metallica uses dummy cabs. Instead, according to their techs, on the last couple of tours they've have mostly empty stages but James and Kirk each had an un-mic'd 4x12 or two on stage just so they could walk over to them and feel some air moving if they wanted.

That's still a lot less than a full stage lined with cabs like they used to use though.

 

[SFW]

This is a QuadCortex and a Kemper. (Or two Kempers... not sure if Adam is using the Quad live.) Sounds pretty damn good to me....

 

[thegame]

This is a QuadCortex and a Kemper. (Or two Kempers... not sure if Adam is using the Quad live.) Sounds pretty damn good to me....

Never heard of these guys. Lincoln Park meets Gorija? lol

 

[Meeotch]

Never heard of these guys. Lincoln Park meets Gorija? lol

Josh Middleton is a beast of a guitar player...although I just read that he has parted ways with Architects to focus on Sylosis again. This is exciting news because I agree it sounds a little too trendy/softcore for my tastes. Edge of the Earth is a bit long winded but has some real stunners and probably my favorite from them.

In regards to the Axe 3, fuck it I gotta try one. I have no interest in running it through FRFR but damn I need to know what it sounds like through my 2150.

 

[gibson5413]

Recently, I used my Fractal FM9 at band rehearsal for the first time. Normally, I use my 3rd Power Kitchen Sink tube amp combo for everything but I left it at my main band's space. I decided to take my FM9 as I didn't have the time to pick up my normal rig. I just loaded up my normal patch and went for it. After rehearsal, my wife (who is in the band as a vocalist and fiddle player) commented that she didn't love my tone as much this time around. She couldn't pin it down but it just didn't sound like it normally does. I told her I didn't have time to get my rig, let alone, dial it in with the band and pick a comparable patch. I found it interesting that she could hear the difference. She has a great ear even though she comes from a very different musical world (she is a professional violin teacher and plays with the Utah Symphony).

I thought about it for a while and thought of a couple of things. I have been using my 3rd Power amp with my bands for the past 3+ years and have it dialed in really well with the bands. I rarely have to touch a knob. I realized that with my FM9 I didn't take any time to dial it in for a band setting. It sounds amazing for my home recording and playing through my desktop monitors but not so much in a live setting as I did not set it up with that in mind. Next time I get the chance I am going to try and build a patch with live use in mind. At the end of the day...so many great options at my disposal. I believe with a little time and attention I could get the FM9 dialed in for live use. I'll find the right amp, IR and effects to work with the band just in case I get caught in a bind again. I will always use my tube amp first but so glad I do have a convenient solution as well.

 

[gibson5413]

This is a QuadCortex and a Kemper. (Or two Kempers... not sure if Adam is using the Quad live.) Sounds pretty damn good to me....

Bleed From Within use the Quad Cortex for studio and live and they sound great too.

 

[tallcoolone]

Dude, basically everyone here has experience with high end gear - both tube amps AND modelers.

Well this just plain isn’t true, and I assume you know this. I‘d be shocked if 10% of the members on this board have ever spent a week with a Helix or Fractal unit. I’d be stunned if 5% of the members here have played multiple gigs with either. Nothing wrong with that of course but experience is important. Especially when coming to such strong conclusions like we see here

you can't seem to grasp that these huge national touring acts would use modelers because of a cost benefit analysis equation, instead of "DURR I USE DAT GEAR BECUZ IT SOUND DA BEST"

I don’t ‘grasp’ it because it is a theory of yours and not a fact.

The only person that comes off as upset here, is you

Upset? Nah man, I love these discussions. I will say that I seem to be the only person here not vehemently ’defending‘ the gear he currently owns tho

 

[Devin]

The only thing I vehemently defend is my virginity

 

[RevDrucifer]

And until guitar players who grew up during the 70's and 80's are dead and buried it will continue to be the same. All of us who grew up back then drooled over these unobtanium amps our guitar gods played. For many, the idea that these holy grails can be digitally recreated is literally upsetting.

Yeah, I definitely find the debate around it “interesting” I think the biggest thing for me is in the matter of importance, the amp aspect of that is fairly low on the totem pole. Writing/recording songs is my highest priority, that final 5% of tone people are always chasing, I couldn’t give a single fuck about. That 5% can be completely erased/nullified by moving an EQ knob in the mix, so why the fuck waste any time on it, is my overall thought on that.

The only time I have a knee-jerk reaction to it is when the criticism starts getting into the ‘you’re not a worthy player unless you‘re playing a tube amp‘ territory. Same shit with the relic-haters who go on these long winded poser rants about fucking stolen valor because they’re upset a guitar has dings on it. It has absolutely fuck all to do with the musical output or abilities of the owner of the relic. And 9x out of 10 this shit is spoken by people who are scared shitless to post anything they’ve ever written or played, unsurprisingly.

And yep, I sure as fuck do play a relic into a modeler.



(And before the anti-Chippy crowd jumps in, I bought that shirt because it was supporting Bishop5150’s cancer treatments, RIP Todd!)

Edit- and all that said; I still play through actual cabs live because fuck going direct.

 

[tallcoolone]

Yeah, I definitely find the debate around it “interesting” I think the biggest thing for me is in the matter of importance, the amp aspect of that is fairly low on the totem pole. Writing/recording songs is my highest priority, that final 5% of tone people are always chasing, I couldn’t give a single fuck about. That 5% can be completely erased/nullified by moving an EQ knob in the mix, so why the fuck waste any time on it, is my overall thought on that.

The only time I have a knee-jerk reaction to it is when the criticism starts getting into the ‘you’re not a worthy player unless you‘re playing a tube amp‘ territory. Same shit with the relic-haters who go on these long winded poser rants about fucking stolen valor because they’re upset a guitar has dings on it. It has absolutely fuck all to do with the musical output or abilities of the owner of the relic. And 9x out of 10 this shit is spoken by people who are scared shitless to post anything they’ve ever written or played, unsurprisingly.

And yep, I sure as fuck do play a relic into a modeler.



(And before the anti-Chippy crowd jumps in, I bought that shirt because it was supporting Bishop5150’s cancer treatments, RIP Todd!)

Edit- and all that said; I still play through actual cabs live because fuck going direct.

Pfft…you’re just using that thing because of a cost benefit analysis and you know it

Great rant and even better chops man

 

[Racerxrated]

Well this just plain isn’t true, and I assume you know this. I‘d be shocked if 10% of the members on this board have ever spent a week with a Helix or Fractal unit. I’d be stunned if 5% of the members here have played multiple gigs with either. Nothing wrong with that of course but experience is important. Especially when coming to such strong conclusions like we see here


I don’t ‘grasp’ it because it is a theory of yours and not a fact.

Upset? Nah man, I love these discussions. I will say that I seem to be the only person here not vehemently ’defending‘ the gear he currently owns tho

Curious as to how you come to assume that anyone is defending anything.....Your comment about how people here don't have experience with 'high end gear' caused me to spit my coffee out at work. Lol. Why don't you list all of your "high end gear" so we can see what the 'great players' use? No, I'm not saying you said you are a great player but you seem to assume much about many here on this forum.

Some of us simply feel that modelers aren't quite up to the task of replacing tube amps. Period. Just because we feel they don't sound/feel quite as good (yet) as our favorite tube amps, doesn't at all equate to 'defending' anything. Quite the opposite really...YOU seem to be vehemently DEFENDING modelers, as if your life depended on it. Lol
Are you on the payroll of some modeler's company? Seems a bit like it, when you read through your posts. It's pretty obvious that when major bands go to Fractal, or Kemper or whatever modeler they've come to the conclusion that they sound good enough, and can save the acts both time and money when it comes to setup/teardown/payroll.
If you can't see that obvious fact, then you are a shill and nothing more.

 

[tallcoolone]

Curious as to how you come to assume that anyone is defending anything.....

Why on earth would people with no experience with something be so adamantly sure that thing can’t do what so many at the top of the food chain claim it does? Honestly, I’m not being facetious I’d love to hear this.

Some of us simply feel that modelers aren't quite up to the task of replacing tube amps. Period.

My only question is always, why do you feel that way? I avoided the tech for years because I was told it wasn’t there and I was used to playing out of great amps. You say you’ve owned an AX8–it came out in 2016 I think. Have you ever mentioned your experience with it here before?

Your comment about how people here don't have experience with 'high end gear' caused me to spit my coffee out at work. Lol. Why don't you list all of your "high end gear"

You can keep insinuating what you want but I have already specifically stated I meant the Fractal AXEFX and the Helix.

I was gonna say I’m not going to get in a dick measuring contest but I just smoked and this was actually a lot of fun—this is what’s in the room at the moment:

Royal MSG100
Fuchs ODS50
Orange OR50
Friedman Twin Sister
Friedman Smallbox
Mesa Mark III red stripe w/eq and EV12L
Marshall SV20h
Marshall SC20h
Marshall 2204 clone
Badcat Unleash II
Waza TAE

Marshall 1960ax w/greenbacks
Marshall MF 4x12 with Marshall V30s
Marshall 1960a G12H30s top, V30s bottom
Marshall 1960b G12H30s top, V30s bottom
Marshall 1960a w/G12H75 Creambacks
Marshall 1936 2x12 w/Fane H75s
Mesa Thiele w/newer EV12L
Stone vert 2x12 w/EVM12L series
Sourmash 2x12 w/Tone Tubby Gold/Celestion Blue
Avatar contemporary 2x12 w/Emi Delta Pro cast frame

2001 Gibson Les Paul cherry sb R8 w/Wagner Amer Steels
2006 Gibson Les Paul Custom R7 w/Wagner Amer Steels
2022 Gibson Les Paul lemonburst R8 w/Custombuckers
Kauer Banshee Deluxe cherry sb w/Wolfetones
Kauer Banshee Deluxe antique white w/Filtertrons
2016 Gibson Les Paul Custom lite
HSS strat partscaster 2t sb w/Fralins
HSS stat partscaster olwht w/Dimarzios
2HB Warmoth Jazzmaster w/Dimarzios
Dragon tele partscaster w/Duncans
Warmoth relic Charvel partscaster w/Dimarzios
2009 Gibson Songwriter Deluxe Standard with Ebony Fretboard
Danelectro 59M NOS Double Cutaway 2010s Black
2010 Ovation C2078AX Custom Elite
1997 Tacoma DM25LE
Emi 1275 doubleneck
2018 Fender MIJ Hybrid '50s Precision Bass

and a whole buncha pedals

 

[Racerxrated]

"Why on earth would people with no experience with something be so adamantly sure that thing can’t do what so many at the top of the food chain claim it does? Honestly, I’m not being facetious I’d love to hear this."

No experience? Do you know how reading comprehension works? Because, I'm fairly certain I and others HAVE STATED that we've either
1. Owned
2. Tried(that is, played through) many if not ALL the modeling options.

You can sit there IN DENIAL of these facts all you want, I guess if you don't believe me or others then there's really no use discussing anything.

"My only question is always, why do you feel that way? I avoided the tech for years because I was told it wasn’t there and I was used to playing out of great amps. You say you’ve owned an AX8–it came out in 2016 I think. Have you ever mentioned your experience with it here before?"

Yes, I have NUMEROUS times talked about my experience with the AX8. I did NOT do a review, because I didn't want to give it an 'average' review because of how sensitive the 'Modeler Police' seem to be from time to time(this thread included). I have ALWAYS stated that a modeler is a GREAT TOOL to add to a gear collection; as they are super easy to set up, transport, and record with. But the FEEL isn't there yet. And, I did try it through a FRFR powered monitor, and through FX returns of tube amps AND direct into an S400 power amp, HHV800 as well. The tube power DID improve the feel but it still wasn't in the same league as my tube amps. Just my experience.
I have also played a friends Kemper, and AXEIII. They are better than my AX8 experience but still lack that feel IMO.

"You can keep insinuating what you want but I have already specifically stated I meant the Fractal AXEFX and the Helix.

I was gonna say I’m not going to get in a dick measuring contest but I just smoked and this was actually a lot of fun—this is what’s in the room at the moment:"

My friend has a Helix, he loves it. I played through it a few yrs back (forgot to mention) and it sounded more generic to me than the others; but maybe I could dial it in better? But again, the feel was worse yet with that one, than the AXE and Kemper.
Your gear list is cool; although the only thing that would interest me is the MSG as I've heard good things. You don't seem to have any vintage gear? You should try some, sometime. They can cost more (speakers are my most important vintage vice lol) but IMO worth it MOST of the time. Of course, vintage guitars are STUPID expensive these days, I'm pretty happy with a good 80s USA Charvel/Jackson.

In the end, this is all just opinion of how each of us HEARS these rigs, and for me whether the FEEL is there is very important. I still say that the FM 3 will probably be a future purchase, as I keep getting asked to play out here and there. I really don't have anything against modelers, and yes the majority on this forum HAS had some experience with them. It's a pretty quick check to see how the feel is on them, for me if it's not there I'm just not that interested.
So no, I'm not anti modeler but I strongly feel that most if not all of the major acts that have gone to them, have done so IN PART to cut costs/time in setup/transportation...and they are reliable in getting the SAME tone each and every night, which is nice.

 

[tallcoolone]

No experience? Do you know how reading comprehension works? Because, I'm fairly certain I and others HAVE STATED that we've either
1. Owned
2. Tried(that is, played through) many if not ALL the modeling options.

You can sit there IN DENIAL of these facts all you want, I guess if you don't believe me or others then there's really no use discussing anything.

That’s fair. I guess having been on these forums for so long I’ve seen plenty of people stretch the truth a bit. I enjoy your posts, you give helpful feedback on seemingly every piece of gear you purchase and I’ve just never seen you post about getting a modeler. I don’t think extensive time is needed to get a feel for whether or not you like an amp—to me if I’m not clicking with it after an hour or so it’s a pass. But these things are complicated. One thing I always say to anyone contemplating a modeler is make sure you have 2-4 weeks to deep dive into the thing otherwise you are wasting your money and you will come away from the experience with nothing but frustration.

I did NOT do a review, because I didn't want to give it an 'average' review because of how sensitive the 'Modeler Police' seem to be from time to time(this thread included).

You don’t seem like someone who shies away from a disagreement. Which is great BTW

In the end, this is all just opinion of how each of us HEARS these rigs, and for me whether the FEEL is there is very important.

Also fair. While I stand by my statement that in a true blind test no listener would be able to discern one from the other that isn’t really what this is about. It’s like playing with cans or in ears—sure that is your tube amp coming through but it isn’t how most guitar players want to monitor themselves. Because it doesn’t sound half as “good“ and isn’t usually very inspiring.

As for feel, personally I found that as a positive most of the time. Different amps respond differently under our fingers and some feel more comfortable than others. I love the Splawn tone but after owning a couple I found they just don’t give me the ‘bounce’ I’m looking for. Now running the Splawn in the Axe I could have that consistent feel I was used to and still get that great dry midrange Splawn snarl. Conversely though I disliked the Carol Ann models because they didn’t feel as good as the real amps I had on the shelf at the time. That feel is what made those amps so special

I’m sure a deep dive into the guts of the Axe models can help there but I’m not ever going to put in that kind of work. I don’t think modeling “hasn’t captured the feel of a tube amp” but I do think that (the Axe II anyway) has a generic feel for every amp model which for an experienced player can be a big deal. I liked the consistency most of the time myself

Your gear list is cool; although the only thing that would interest me is the MSG as I've heard good things. You don't seem to have any vintage gear? You should try some, sometime. They can cost more (speakers are my most important vintage vice lol) but IMO worth it MOST of the time. Of course, vintage guitars are STUPID expensive these days, I'm pretty happy with a good 80s USA Charvel/Jackson.

Yeah the MSG is pretty much a well built take on a 100w plexi with KT88s. Not a ton of gain but I love boosts so I don’t mind. I’ve swapped those tubes into several JMPs and always enjoyed the result. I did just get rid of a 65 Super Reverb which I’ll eventually regret and I’ve had a good dozen anyway older Marshalls, they were great but I never felt they gave me that much more than newer more reliable amps did.

I will admit I’ve never really had any vintage cabs aside from an 81 JCM800 4x12 with G12-100s that I’ll regret selling forever. I was hooked on buying used cabs for a while—seemed like there was always a 1960 on CL for $300-$400 and I was buying them up and selling the 75s which I don’t like at all. After getting empty 1960 shells for $100-200 I can’t bring myself to drop 10x that on a vintage one, but seeing as how I’m still missing that old 800 cab you are prob right.

I keep getting asked to play out here and there

Post some clips, I’d love to hear you play!