JackBootedThug
MURDERATOR
Nobody is buds here that I’m aware of. I know John as a member here for years…just like you… he has not received preferential treatment from me or any other moderators that I’m aware of.
- Status
JackBootedThug
MURDERATOR
So this situation is resolved or not? Is this about $93 bucks? I have to be honest with everyone here… I’m reading this shit bucket of a thread and I’m starting to get in my feelings a little about some of the things I’m reading.
DanTravis62
Moderator
That's awesome right?
Damned if you do, damned if you don't
I'm very tempted to go on a rant here but I will restrain myself
I
innogator
Member
Here's my deal with it, yeah with $93 I'd consider myself square in this deal, but it's the entire way this has been handled by John. I came to him with a legit concern and and was blown off, blocked. Absolutely no respect or inclination to work with me on making it right under his own volition.
I feel like I need to remind people this is how John reacted when I came to him with the problem. This is why we haven't been able to reach an amicable agreement, outside of him completely ignoring me. Regardless of the amount of money the way this deal was handled has been the shittiest deal I've ever been a part of. Not once has he approached me with sincerity of the situation and fixing this. If anyone else thinks I'm overreacting by being treated like this then obviously you haven't been on the receiving end of it. Let me also remind people that John went public with this first by calling me out in the original thread. So again, given the circumstances what alternative route should I have taken here? Keep my mouth shut and let a shitty dealer go without getting called out?
Here's how my conversations with John go to give people insight
Attachments
JackBootedThug
MURDERATOR
Yeah you got a guitar with a cracked fretboard. Plainly visible in the original thread. Then of course there’s the internet blow up. Did John handle this correctly? IMO no he didn’t. Is it resolved and you get your money back? All but $93 bucks correct? Sucks but that’s what can happen with these online deals occasionally. My issue is with people thinking that this site or we moderators have a dog in this fight…we don’t. John’s not a scammer. And we ain’t buds either. Like I said before…I don’t think it was handled correctly by him at all, but it looks to me like he got pissed and said fuck it and let PayPal settle it. Does that suck for you? Fuck yes it does. Are you out some time and money? Absolutely you are. But there’s absolutely nothing we can do about that. And we also have no responsibility in this situation either.
Meeotch
Well-known member
I missed the original thread, but I read this one and I'll throw in my 2 cents - Innogator seems like a class act and treated the situation VERY gingerly considering the guitar was described MINT. It is possible that John did not see the crack, or the chip, but I doubt it because those are things you don't miss when listing a guitar as MINT. And it is possible that both of those occurred in shipping, because the listing photos that I've seen are too blurry to be definitive. Maybe better photos exist??
So in my opinion, the two likely and appropriate paths to the same outcome are: either John fucked up describing his guitar and agrees to a return because it's fucking damaged, or the guitar was damaged in shipping and John agrees to a return. I suppose a repair by a local luthier is a third option, but only if the buyer agrees to that route. The fate of the guitar is not the buyer's problem at this point, and repairs/shipping damage claims are the seller's problem.
John's decision to disregard the situation and place the burden on the buyer makes him a POS seller, regardless of how or when the damage to the guitar occurred. And the fact that he allowed time to lapse to the very brink of the Paypal refund deadlines is more indication of a careless or even vindictive seller.
Innogator is simply doing what any of us would do in a similar situation - newish to the board and fucked over by a seller who seems to have an otherwise good reputation. I don't believe he is asking mods to take responsibility, but who else do you turn to when other board members just look the other way? If the community is responsible for policing itself, then we have to be willing to chime in which is why I'm typing this.
The bottom line is that the exchange of gear for money is a fickle process that is probably best left for in-person deals. We like the convenience of online deals but have to accept the fact that there is more room for things to go south. Luckily Innogator had buyer's protection, but many sellers only accept cash so that's just another risk to be considered as a buyer. Preaching to the choir here but these things need to be repeated so that the community continues to understand the risks.
So in my opinion, the two likely and appropriate paths to the same outcome are: either John fucked up describing his guitar and agrees to a return because it's fucking damaged, or the guitar was damaged in shipping and John agrees to a return. I suppose a repair by a local luthier is a third option, but only if the buyer agrees to that route. The fate of the guitar is not the buyer's problem at this point, and repairs/shipping damage claims are the seller's problem.
John's decision to disregard the situation and place the burden on the buyer makes him a POS seller, regardless of how or when the damage to the guitar occurred. And the fact that he allowed time to lapse to the very brink of the Paypal refund deadlines is more indication of a careless or even vindictive seller.
Innogator is simply doing what any of us would do in a similar situation - newish to the board and fucked over by a seller who seems to have an otherwise good reputation. I don't believe he is asking mods to take responsibility, but who else do you turn to when other board members just look the other way? If the community is responsible for policing itself, then we have to be willing to chime in which is why I'm typing this.
The bottom line is that the exchange of gear for money is a fickle process that is probably best left for in-person deals. We like the convenience of online deals but have to accept the fact that there is more room for things to go south. Luckily Innogator had buyer's protection, but many sellers only accept cash so that's just another risk to be considered as a buyer. Preaching to the choir here but these things need to be repeated so that the community continues to understand the risks.
H
harddriver
Well-known member
I like John0421 and he always has seemed to have a flawless transaction history here and an upstanding member. But I did read the screenshots of the listing and the guitar was listed with descriptions of MINT, CLOSET CASE QUEEN, All corners are MINT and ZERO fretwear. Also how does an ebony fretboard get cracked during shipment without completely snapping the neck, I really don't think a crack like that occurs instantly but more like age cracks in laquer clearoats, maybe the ebony dried out over the years who knows but it is a BIG flaw nonetheless.
What I do know is that it is the responsibility of the seller to disclose any and all possible flaws in an item within the lisiting of the sale and to all potential buyers. If John had mentioned, "hey there is a crack in the fretboard" that was visible to some in those photo's the OP buyer may have passed or decided to make an offer at a discount if he wanted to fix the issue. I'm not sure any buyer would buy a neck through guitar with a cracked finger board. Not disclosing those flaws and using the descriptions he did was misleading at best and dishonest at worst. Either way the John4021 is responsible for the description terms he used in his ad they they implied a MINT guitar(meaning like new....no flaws), No cracked corners edges in the finish, NO CHIPS OR DINGS, NO cracked ebony fingerboard and ZERO fretwear. If the guitar was not 100% to this description from the ad that's not the buyers fault.
Maybe the OP buyer didn't do his due diligence but I can see the fact that John4021 is a senior member here with a stellar track record probably helped the buyer assuage any concerns.
John doesn't need to admit any guilt but he should make the buyer whole with a full refund and if he lists guitar again be 100% honest about it's condition period end of story. It's a shame these things happen but it's life and I don't feel the buyer was trying to scam John4021 whatsoever judging from the screenshots and he needs to cease treating the buyer as though he is.
Everyone on this board knows that if they received a guitar not in the condition as it had been described in the ad you all would have done the very same thing myself included that the OP buyer has done regardless of the fact that John is a senior member here....MINT means MINT and that's that, and if it isn't that the seller is fully responsible for his ad.
Excerpt from the ad itself:
Here's a real time piece (or at least a mint RR for yous guys)
Closet Case Queen.
White with black pinstripes. All corners are mint. No chips or dings
Paint shines like new.
Ebony fretboard. ZERO FRET WARE
Hard to get it in the right light to show off how the Shark tooth/ Fin markers and Jackson name on head stock have great pearl/rainbowing to them.
''Brand new'' Jackson case.
I have the original which is pretty much mint.
That thing is as big as a Piano case and not included (unless you want it and add to price and shipping.)
NowYou'rePlayingWithPower
Well-known member
Have given this some thought and find it strange that you feel the need to comment/defend alt status EVERY SINGLE TIME it's brought up. Despite it having a history here for users to be funny, deceptive, or cowardice. You jump in whether it's directed at you or not. I've noticed you commenting about/emojiing events that occurred before you were ever a member. Your signature when you first joined was not at all strange. But yeah, totally silly...
The "demand" part is just crybaby BS. No one is demanding anything. A call out is not a demand, but you do you.
simonfrewler
Well-known member
You sound paranoid.
I don't defend alt statuses at all.
I don't play stupid Internet games with people.
I also don't sit around thinking everyone has an agenda, other than shooting the shit and exchanging knowledge and ideas.
Your fixation on this, and the aggressive clip demands are becoming tiresome.
This thread isn't about any of this and honestly doesn't help one bit.
I don't need to justify my hobby, or how I enjoy it. Just because you don't know everyone, doesn't mean they have to post a clip everytime you ask. Which is a lot. Who fucking cares.
Give me a break. I have been nothing but genuine and would like to think I am fairly even keel.
This isnt an exclusive club. And no one member is more valuable than another.
Honestly this is dumb.
NowYou'rePlayingWithPower
Well-known member
Would gather every time it's been brought up by anyone since you've been a member.
(Not in the sense of defending the status itself, but going on the defense of anyone and everyone whenever it's brought up.)
You're either new here and have no understanding of it's history here, or you're playing dumb.
"Aggressive clip demands" I literally say it once or twice a month if that (so, maybe two or three times since you "joined") and not at all aggressive or demanding or "a lot" let alone to the point of tiresome to anyone but you. Maybe you're just reading it wrong or maybe you're paranoid. Maybe you're on the wrong site if it's so tiresome.
100% it's not an exclusive club, and 100% there are many members here who are more valuable than others.
Just depends on who you ask.
Either way I will say whatever I want whenever I want and am not going to tiptoe around you or anyone else.
If you have a problem with it; it's your problem.
It's not personal, so don't waste your time taking it that way.
To be clear I have no issue with you, even if you are an alt.
I really don't care or waste my time concerning myself over people I don't know.
You just keep setting off flags is all.
No stress or hate on my end.
See you around.
thegame
Well-known member
Unless the guitar had magical self healing properties, I don't think it's possible for the glue involving repair attempt to have been there from "shipping damage", upon initial receivership. That is, unless the seller already knew about it and purposely misrepresented the guitar.
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simonfrewler
Well-known member
Umm....yeah this sounds sane.
Jesus fucking Christ.
Get over yourself.
Edit - This is textbook gatekeeping behavior. Topped with a massive plop of gaslighting.
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Smash
Hack
This thread delivers
Monkey Man
Super Moderator
Pretty-much.
I believe the $93 was for shipping. Johnny returned all the monies PayPal required; shipping was not covered.
Nailed it brudda.
NowYou'rePlayingWithPower
Well-known member
Maybe try a dictionary next time and come up with words that fit.
Gatekeeping is trying to keep people set in a way and/or out of involvement in something.
Not what I'm doing at all, I've just known many of the members here for years.
So yes, they absolutely are worth more to me.
I consider a number of them friends.
Sorry if that bothers you, not trying to keep anyone out of whatever perceived club you believe is happening.
If I was gatekeeping I wouldn't be having an open giveaway available for anyone to join.
If I thought you were an alt, would have already wrote you off.
But your response is on a whole other level of twisting words.
And I agree that your post is full of gaslighting and insane.
Not sure what your deal is, but I dunno... get over it?
NowYou'rePlayingWithPower
Well-known member
It's definitely... something.
Exo-metal
Well-known member
I love Lisa
NowYou'rePlayingWithPower
Well-known member
Exo-metal
Well-known member
This thread delivers.
John4021
Well-known member
I love Lucy
- Status