Just out of curiosity...

[splawner]

Well, the price of the amps didn't drop...but apparently the quality has if they are using the less expensive transformers.

His amps sound better with the classic tone transformers....

 

[Tone Merchant]

It can be a reality if done right. So far it hasn't. Charging $3600 for an amp should include custom tuning by the amp maker. It is well documented that most of the people charging that do not do this. I was told that Friedman himself checked #008 before it was shipped to me. That was either a lie or he simply doesn't know what he is doing. The simple fact is if you put a pile of parts in front of most of the people that have their name on an amp, they couldn't even produce a functioning model. That includes some big names. Those big names bash those that can. Marketing often trumps ability. There will always be people that fall for that just like there will always be people that know better.

Wanna settle the argument? It would be simple. Amp build off! Give the top 10 amp modder/manufacturers the same parts and 3 days to build. Amps auctioned off to the highest bidders. Separate the men from the boys. Some would go for 10k, some you couldn't give away. I know I would be willing to chip in for parts to make that happen lol....

Look, I really like Mark. I've known him personally for 20 years. I just saw him a week and a half ago. But his amp wouldn't be done in 3 days for this contest. There would be 9 guys there. None more talented than Mark, but all more disciplined and more business savvy. That is part of the problem. Mark is who he is. He is a mad scientist. He is your conquering hero in your tone quest. He can be the biggest nightmare in your tone quest. He really is like the tortured artist.

"None more talented than Mark" Really? Mark in not a designer, He's a modder. Guys like John Suhr, Stevie Fryette, Mike Soldano, Reinhold Bogner, Paul Rivera, Bruce Egnater etc. Those guys are true designers. Those guys can layout boards on cad and have a far more extensive engineering chops. Mark really struggled with the new CCV amps because he had to do actual design work, like implementing the midi functionality , a better effects loop and line out. Mark didnt even incorporate several of the new CCV effects loops because he couldnt figure out how to do it, which caused numerous returns and Friedman had to save day on those. Now, am I saying Mark isnt talented? Absolutely Mark is talented and he came up with his own sound that people want, thats far more important than having engineering chops

I believe Friedman might have played #008 before shipping it out to you. There is such a huge difference between Dave's abilities on guitar and Mark's. Mark is a monster guitarist with a crazy, aggressive, attacking feel and his amplifiers accentuate that. If the tiniest thing is wrong in the sound or the feel, Mark is going to zero in on it. The next guy, bashing out some power chords doesn't have the ability to play like that so he doesn't have the ability to fine tune it the way Mark does.

Heres the problem with what your saying Chub. How well those guys play guitar has very little to do with how well they can dial in an amp to a clients specific needs. Because everyone of those guys you mentioned will always sound like themselves when they play. Mike Fortin is probably a great example. In the past couple of years, he went from a very talented designer to now working at Randall where he works with alot of artists. I would bet my last bowl of Cheerios that Mike would say he has developed more as a designer and broadened tone pallet working with artists than just being able to play good.

What makes Friedman so good, is every week we have major artist and producers in the shop sitting down with Dave as he dials them in with their modern and vintage amps etc and Dave has been dialing in these big names for 20 years, he just until a few years ago decided to stat an amp company. Now again, Im not saying Mark isn't talented or doesn't have the ability to develop the skills I mentioned. mark would definatley be able to tell if something wasnt right about the sound and feel of his own amp. But I seriously doubt Mark can sit down with epic producers like John Shanks, Bob Rock etc and dial them in with their vintage plexi or Deluxe. And name some producers and artists that Mark has worked with?

This is a new era in amp building. There are many great players in the amp building business these days. Mark Cameron rips. David Bray rips. Scott Splawn rips. Mike Fortin rips. Rockstah Mark ripped. You put some amp knowledge in those guys heads and then combine it with their hands and ears and you have the best combination of talents to create a killer sounding and feeling amp.

 

[Tone Merchant]

Will Mercury sell those trannys to anyone ? Or only the OEM ? How do you order them ? Call Mercury and say I need a Power and Output trans and a choke for a King era CCV or Atomica ?

They will not sell any manufacturers approved transformers. You would need to have Brad or Rob get it for you.

The MM transformer in the CCV is nothing more than a copy of a 71 super lead that you should be able to buy from Mercury. There is nothing custom about it. Sounds great in Marks mods and is a big part of Mark's sound. Mark did not want to use the same MM transformers in the Old Bitch and Atomica as the CCV. He thought those amps would sound to much like a CCV and wanted them to be more traditional sounding.

 

[Tone Merchant]

Friedman uses all three (Classic Tone, Heyboer, and MM) in the Dirty Shirley I think (I'm positive about the first 2, just not the MMs). I believe the Atomica and Old Bitch were designed for MMs, but got the Classic Tones as a cost cutting measure. When I have the funds my Atomica is getting MMs.
Splawn uses Heyboer in all their amps and they aren't cheap trannys by any means...but they're not in the Cameron amps.

correct, I dont know of a single amp designer that makes a decision on which transformer to use simply to lower cost. They choose the transformers on their sound.

 

[paulyc]

Rob, I don't know you, so please don't take offense to this, but there are PLENTY of amp designers that work at amp companies that are either told by bean counters or just know that the companies they work at won't let them design to the highest standard...that's just the way a business works...I doubt Fortin would rather have his designs made in China, or Marshall either for that matter. When you talk about high end boutique amps, I'm sure the sound is more important than cost, but the Old Bitch and Atomica were described as stripped down as compared to the CCV, and you saying Mark didn't want to use MMs in them "because they'd sound too much like a ccv" kind of reinforces that position...especially in light of #008 sounding so much better after Mark put in MMs and other tweaks.

 

[lespaul6]

Hey Rob.. when will production start on the SoCal amps?

 

[Equ1nox]

businesses absoluely look at the bottom line n cost whether it's amps or cars or widgets.

the cameron line (conglomoration, not cameron singular) DID use heyboer PTs. - old bitch / atomica

i've spoken to mark MANY times n he does prefer the use of MM.

If u swap ur atomica or old bitch PT out for a MM, it WILL sound better thou the bolt patterns may not be the same, so some adaptation may be needed.

there is no real mojo or difference in transformer manufacturers (MM, heynoer, magnetic components). they use the same material n laminations, wire from wire suppliers, etc. it all comes down to quality of production n where produced, and design of the transformers themselves.

 

[glip22]

If you guys want a breakdown about transfomer manufacturing give Chris Merren a call. He knows the ins and outs from the materials used to the techniques used, etc.. He'll take you to school. According to him it takes Mercury five minutes to wind one and they are way overpriced in light of this.

 

[paulyc]

The winding isn't the only piece of the cost puzzle...the iron used for the core, the laminations and magnets have to be cast, end caps pressed, wire bought and the whole thing put together...there's a lot to it. I work in metal manufacturing and having anything cast or pressed in small volumes is expensive...

 

[lespaul6]

that's correct... hand wiring is not necessary with transformers. Its a cool bragging right I guess... but Marshall's were always machine wound (in 5 min..lol). Same thing with pickups...a seymour duncan can be wound in no time, makes no difference in the tone side by side with a handwound one given the same number of turns and spacing... in fact machines are often better at keeping the specs tight.

Some things actually do improve with technology...

 

[Equ1nox]

No breakdown by Chris Merren is needed. The folks that do strictly transformers for a living (like other products) have it down to where if you need something, you can tell them the spec, they plug it in to a spreadsheet that calculates it all for them in a matter of seconds....BOOM. When I worked on transmission/propshafts/differentials, it was the same thing. The engineering experts over time had put it into calculations and once requirements were defined, entered the data and it spit out what they needed. Same thing with transformers, depending on requirements, the spreadsheet or calculations will temm them how many turns and what gauge wire and how large the lamination stack should be, etc.

Like I said, just like resistors, capacitors, and tubes, there's only really a handful of suppliers and of the material, so there is no majik wire or because someone "hand turned" a transformer. Ridiculous. The non-handwired are the best and most consistant. As for 5 minute transformers...that's relative to the equipment. A transformer can be wound in SECONDS with the right equipment and when you're doing it for a living and mass volume...you may have that equipment. I have worked with actuators and automatic winding machines like this that twist them up a blazing speeds - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImdW5581KXg

Again, it comes down to DESIGN. Is the current appropriate with adequate buffer? Is the wire the correct gauge? Is a static ground used?? Design it wrong, it won't last. It will be a humming hot mess, etc.

5 minutes is relative to the equipment used. I have

 

[rlord1974]

This thread has potential.

 

[paulyc]

I saw a picture in Richie Fliegler's book that showed me a lot about transformers for tube guitar amps...they showed a Marshall transformer and a Silvertone amp transformer...both were for four EL34 tubes...the Marshall was twice the size, meaning more expensive to produce, but either would physically work...The Torres book talks about under sizing a transformer for more "grind", so there is latitude in a transformer design, and no one perfect transformer for a given amp. I have a local amp tech (he works on amps at night), but his day job is designing industrial power supplies that use transformers he designs for each application, he has a degree in electronic engineering and his dad was a TV repair man, so he was always interested in electronics and tube equipment (he restores old tube hi fi gear too), he's probably forgotten more about transformers than most on here will ever know, and he's told me on numerous occasions that theoretically, the transformer shouldn't make ANY difference...but we all know it does. He's said that MMs are the best, but that Heyboer isn't far behind, and Classic Tones are ok...FWIW.

 

[paulyc]

And another thing...I find it funny that, for a given set of output tubes (say 6L6 vs EL34), there should really only be a few correct output transformers that have the right impedence for the given output tubes, so when you have, say, a Mesa Rectifier that SAYS you can use 6L6 or EL34 tubes, well, Ya, you CAN use them...but is the output transformer REALLY optimized for either ? Because the impedence is really not the same for those two tube types...makes you wonder. I'd bet that a Mesa Rectifier would sound better if you decided which tubes you liked best and put in an output transformer that actually matched the tubes being used...another FWIW.

 

[Chubtone]

"None more talented than Mark" Really? Mark in not a designer, He's a modder. Guys like John Suhr, Stevie Fryette, Mike Soldano, Reinhold Bogner, Paul Rivera, Bruce Egnater etc. Those guys are true designers. Those guys can layout boards on cad and have a far more extensive engineering chops. Mark really struggled with the new CCV amps because he had to do actual design work, like implementing the midi functionality , a better effects loop and line out. Mark didnt even incorporate several of the new CCV effects loops because he couldnt figure out how to do it, which caused numerous returns and Friedman had to save day on those. Now, am I saying Mark isnt talented? Absolutely Mark is talented and he came up with his own sound that people want, thats far more important than having engineering chops

Heres the problem with what your saying Chub. How well those guys play guitar has very little to do with how well they can dial in an amp to a clients specific needs. Because everyone of those guys you mentioned will always sound like themselves when they play. Mike Fortin is probably a great example. In the past couple of years, he went from a very talented designer to now working at Randall where he works with alot of artists. I would bet my last bowl of Cheerios that Mike would say he has developed more as a designer and broadened tone pallet working with artists than just being able to play good.

What makes Friedman so good, is every week we have major artist and producers in the shop sitting down with Dave as he dials them in with their modern and vintage amps etc and Dave has been dialing in these big names for 20 years, he just until a few years ago decided to stat an amp company. Now again, Im not saying Mark isn't talented or doesn't have the ability to develop the skills I mentioned. mark would definatley be able to tell if something wasnt right about the sound and feel of his own amp. But I seriously doubt Mark can sit down with epic producers like John Shanks, Bob Rock etc and dial them in with their vintage plexi or Deluxe. And name some producers and artists that Mark has worked with?

I don't think Mark is a theoretical electronics genius. I don't know enough about electronics to decide that. I know there are some true designers that you list that I don't like the tone or feel of their creations. They may have created something other designers marvel at but I play through them and am left scratching my head. I equate them to a musical master of theory and/or chops that you just don't want to listen to because their playing leaves you cold.

I don't even own a Cameron product. About three years ago, I realized that the 17 year old me had the exact same rig that the current me likes the sound and feel of the most. It only took me decades and way too many gear flips to figure that out.

I have been pulling for Mark to do well for 20 years. I like his work. When I hear him on a Cameron amp, it pretty much smokes just about any player/amp combination clip out there for me. It's a thing of beauty. I know that behind the scenes, to get the idea of that amp out of Marks head to the point where it is sitting on a cabinet, actually inside the head box and plugged in and playing is pretty close to a nightmare.

Are you still having nightmares Rob?

 

[glip22]

There's a huge difference between an artist who can paint freehand and another who paints by numbers. Cameron can bring electronics to life out of what he hears and feels. Others can design, use cad, build from a cost effective production standpoint, bring an amp to market, and fill orders. Different talents based on tried and true circuits. There's not that much rocket science to it.

 

[paulyc]

Not much rocket science to it ? I'll agree to that...BUT there IS a little bit of magic there...sometimes designers of gear get lucky and they create legendary pieces of gear that transcend time, I think Mark is one of those guys from a tone standpoint, but a real nightmare to be in business with from what has gone on in the past...I'd say Jose was another one...he effectively gave birth to the LA Metal sound with his creations, and he wasn't a player, true there are "dud" Jose's too, but the ones that shine do so brilliantly !

 

[paulyc]

"None more talented than Mark" Really? Mark in not a designer, He's a modder. Guys like John Suhr, Stevie Fryette, Mike Soldano, Reinhold Bogner, Paul Rivera, Bruce Egnater etc. Those guys are true designers. Those guys can layout boards on cad and have a far more extensive engineering chops. Mark really struggled with the new CCV amps because he had to do actual design work, like implementing the midi functionality , a better effects loop and line out. Mark didnt even incorporate several of the new CCV effects loops because he couldnt figure out how to do it, which caused numerous returns and Friedman had to save day on those. Now, am I saying Mark isnt talented? Absolutely Mark is talented and he came up with his own sound that people want, thats far more important than having engineering chops

Heres the problem with what your saying Chub. How well those guys play guitar has very little to do with how well they can dial in an amp to a clients specific needs. Because everyone of those guys you mentioned will always sound like themselves when they play. Mike Fortin is probably a great example. In the past couple of years, he went from a very talented designer to now working at Randall where he works with alot of artists. I would bet my last bowl of Cheerios that Mike would say he has developed more as a designer and broadened tone pallet working with artists than just being able to play good.

What makes Friedman so good, is every week we have major artist and producers in the shop sitting down with Dave as he dials them in with their modern and vintage amps etc and Dave has been dialing in these big names for 20 years, he just until a few years ago decided to stat an amp company. Now again, Im not saying Mark isn't talented or doesn't have the ability to develop the skills I mentioned. mark would definatley be able to tell if something wasnt right about the sound and feel of his own amp. But I seriously doubt Mark can sit down with epic producers like John Shanks, Bob Rock etc and dial them in with their vintage plexi or Deluxe. And name some producers and artists that Mark has worked with?

I don't think Mark is a theoretical electronics genius. I don't know enough about electronics to decide that. I know there are some true designers that you list that I don't like the tone or feel of their creations. They may have created something other designers marvel at but I play through them and am left scratching my head. I equate them to a musical master of theory and/or chops that you just don't want to listen to because their playing leaves you cold.

I don't even own a Cameron product. About three years ago, I realized that the 17 year old me had the exact same rig that the current me likes the sound and feel of the most. It only took me decades and way too many gear flips to figure that out.

I have been pulling for Mark to do well for 20 years. I like his work. When I hear him on a Cameron amp, it pretty much smokes just about any player/amp combination clip out there for me. It's a thing of beauty. I know that behind the scenes, to get the idea of that amp out of Marks head to the point where it is sitting on a cabinet, actually inside the head box and plugged in and playing is pretty close to a nightmare.

Are you still having nightmares Rob?

So Chub, what is the gear of choice now ? Would be interested to know the answer to that...

 

[metalmaniac93]

I am a huge fanboy of modded Marshalls, but most of the best tones in the business have come from stock Marshall's. So the true genius here is Jim Marshall and his crew!!

 

[paulyc]

I don't know if you can say that...even as far back as Hendrix and Blackmore there were modded Marshalls... Randy Rhoads used the one wire mod, most of the LA guys used either Jose or Lee Jackson, so there have been A LOT of recorded tones that relied on non stock amps.