napalmdeath
Well-known member
Says the guy who sells amps and makes the buyer wait for you to figure out how to ship it.
Bardagh
Well-known member
I really like some of those. I only have two left that I originally pulled from a Laney AOR although I forget their provenance- Hungarian maybe? They sound great in Marshall type amps.
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Cap217
Active member
Is it price gouging if prices have went up across the board? Its not like toilet paper where the stores still sold it for $5.99 and people were selling it for $50. Tubes are a real shortage and suppliers/wholesalers/retail have no inventory and stopped selling tubes. The ones that do have stock of tubes, real legit retailers, have doubled their prices or more on the limited stock they have.
So if everyone increases price then its a free market to sell for whatever you can get. People dont have to buy. This is another difference where people needed TP. People dont need tubes.
But if a personal buyer bought a quad of JJ tubes for $120 and has them for sale for $200, thats ok. What do you want him to do? Sell for what he bought them for? Or sell for less? Remember, NOS Mullards were once $5 a tube and now hundreds. Supply and demand. Thats not price gouging. Gouging is when everyone has a commodity and collectively increases the price to establish a new market. All when manufacturing and supply stays the same. Gas is another example. It has went 2-3x more than a year ago. Is that gouging?
Also, if you have a stock of tubes that you are willing to sell for old wholesale or old retail pricing, I will buy. But Id think they are worth more to you than what you bought them for.
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ZEN Amps
Well-known member
Lots of questions in your post but I'm assuming they're rhetorical. I'll answer this one though - I don't want him to do anything. He can do whatever the hell he wants without permission or input from anyone.
I'm just responding to what he is doing, seeing as the OP pointed it out. I'm allowed to have an opinion on this, as are you. My opinion is he's not the kind of seller I care for, or likely the kind of person I'd like to associate with. I'm not trying to convince you you're wrong, just as your post doesn't change my thoughts on this. If you need tubes, go for it.
I'm no expert on terminology, but the wiki definition of price gouging is pretty consistent with my thoughts:
Price gouging occurs when a seller increases the prices of goods, services, or commodities to a level much higher than is considered reasonable or fair.
NewWorldMan
Well-known member
I think people are taking a very loose and liberal view of “price gouging” these days. It’s being taken way beyond the legal terminology and instead of being applied to essential commodities (like electricity and gasoline), we’re starting to look at individual sellers pedaling luxury items.
There’s a cardinal rule here for non-essential goods: buyers determine the value of items in the market, not sellers. If an item stays on the used market for long enough, sellers will realize their item is overpriced and - if they want to sell it - reduce the price to find a buyer. It’s an oversimplified explanation, but that’s how this works.
So if we want to complain about prices, then we should be directing our ire toward the people purchasing them at prices we think is too high, because they’re the ones setting the market where it is.
Perspective: You bought a home in a local neighborhood 3 years ago for $400k, where houses are hard to come by and currently getting scooped within a week of listing for $800k today. When you list your home for $800k now, are you engaging in “price gouging?”
There’s a cardinal rule here for non-essential goods: buyers determine the value of items in the market, not sellers. If an item stays on the used market for long enough, sellers will realize their item is overpriced and - if they want to sell it - reduce the price to find a buyer. It’s an oversimplified explanation, but that’s how this works.
So if we want to complain about prices, then we should be directing our ire toward the people purchasing them at prices we think is too high, because they’re the ones setting the market where it is.
Perspective: You bought a home in a local neighborhood 3 years ago for $400k, where houses are hard to come by and currently getting scooped within a week of listing for $800k today. When you list your home for $800k now, are you engaging in “price gouging?”
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Cap217
Active member
Im not arguing at all. We all have points of view and its ok.
I dont think its price gouging. If you try to find anything for sale you cant. TheTubeStore has limited stock and they are 2-3x more than they were a month ago. You can get a JJ 12ax7 for $39.99 or $55 for an el34 and you have limited options.
You are defining REASONABLE or FAIR. I think supply has made these prices fair for todays market. You dont and thats ok.
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Cap217
Active member
Exactly. If you can list your home you bought for $400k for $800k and sell it in a week you did well. But Id argue that you probably could have listed it for $900k and still sold it because it sold so fast.
ZEN Amps
Well-known member
Agreed - just stating my opinion. As I said I'm using the commonly accepted definition of the term, as I see no better alternative.
The housing market over 3 years vs tripling of tube pricing in 3 weeks isn't even vaguely comparable. What you're describing is appreciation.
BTW I'm not complaining. I don't need to direct my anger anywhere, as I have none. I'm saying I don't like this kind of seller, as I consider them greedy and weak of character. I also think that people that rushed out and bought pallets of toilet paper are morons, and ticket scalpers are scum - but that's for another thread.
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Cap217
Active member
Imagine if they said no new houses can be built in the USA. Although this isnt apples to apples because we are pretty much saturated with housing in metro areas. But in this hypothetical world, homes would increase in value overnight by a lot.
Im curious. What is an acceptable ask for a quad of Tung Sol El34b new that a private seller bought for $130 a month ago?
311splawndude
Well-known member
I think this boils down to the question of are tubes (for amps) a commodity?
Some might argue they are. Some might argue they are not.
I'd like to add that the issue at hand is this. If you are selling tubes on Reverb and you want to make a fair profit of say 10% and you have buyers, then great. But if the cost of tubes doubles and now you want to make a profit of say 25% to take advantage are you being a douchecake? I'd say yes.
Some might argue they are. Some might argue they are not.
I'd like to add that the issue at hand is this. If you are selling tubes on Reverb and you want to make a fair profit of say 10% and you have buyers, then great. But if the cost of tubes doubles and now you want to make a profit of say 25% to take advantage are you being a douchecake? I'd say yes.
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Cap217
Active member
If the price of tubes doubles by 100% and you only charge 25% more you are in the wrong?
Remember. If you buy tubes for $30/tube thats $120 a quad. Pay tax so total $130. Sell on reverb for $200. Minus paypal, reverb fee, shippping and you net $170 and now you get a 1099 but lets ignore that. You made $50 or $12.50/tube. Thats not much and probably not worth the hassle.
blackba
Well-known member
This whole price increase leaves me with weird questions for amp repairs. I have a set of JJ ECC83s that I paid $10 each for. If I use them in a repair, do I charge the customer $10 for each or the going rate? Since I am not planning to add these JJs to my stash of tubes and planned them for repairs, they will be $10 when used, but its weird to even have these questions come up.
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Cap217
Active member
That’s the real question and issue here. Do you do it like gas stations and increase the price based on market or do you sell the gas you have for what you paid? They change prices daily.
It would suck if you used up all your $10 jj tubes and had to restock for $40.
napalmdeath
Well-known member
I'd charge
Looks like Tube Depot has them listed for $44 a piece! I'm curious what they're paying for them. They appear to be in stock.
blackba
Well-known member
At least for the short term, I am not planning to carry extra preamp tubes for repairs. I have plenty of used test 12AX7s along with my tube checker that I can swap in to determine if one needs to be replaced, but don't want to be sitting on a $44 JJ.
NewWorldMan
Well-known member
It’s absolutely comparable. Where is line drawn on the statute for when value can increase, and who sets that line - do you think you do? No, in a vacuum we’re each completely insignificant individually. Your opinion and mine means squat to market prices unless the collective of the market is of the same mind, reacts the same, and refuses to buy at prices things are listed for.
You mentioned appreciation. What causes appreciation? Exactly what I said earlier - buyers determined that they were willing to pay more, therefore the thing in question now holds more value. Whether that’s a house or a tube, the same principle applies. How did that appreciation happen? Inflation can obviously play a role, but limited supply is typically one of the largest drivers…exactly like those tubes right now. No one magically makes the rules on what a house or tube is worth. There’s no appreciation committee handing down universal judgment we’re all beholden to on what things in the world are worth. Things appreciate and become more valuable because people are willing to pay more for them - full stop. Those people collectively form the market.
No one is getting “gouged.” No one is being forced to pay any price for any luxury item. Whether you pay it is your choice. Simply buy the same item from another seller for less, it’s a free market. And if you can’t find that same item for less? Then that should tell you all you need to know about the value of the thing. The market is set by those buying. It doesn’t care about your feelings or mine.
If everyone stopped paying those prices, then prices would go down. It’s that simple.
311splawndude
Well-known member
Good points but I was talking about gross profit margin. Not % mark up or wholesale to retail.
I'm just saying if you are a seller, in any market really, you should keep your relative profit margin the same. In my example above, I was saying it would be wrong to increase profit margins to take advantage of a false scare in a market, be it tubes or toilet paper.
PS: I have no idea what the profit margin is in selling tubes, I just made up the %.
Rick Lee
Well-known member
Yeah, that's exactly the same thing. LOL.
P
phil b
Well-known member
I cant even remember how many times i've let some of the players in the bands we played with use my cabs, given them an extra string cause they had none and broke one {who doesnt have spare strings when gigging?}, given away spare or at least them use a tube to get thru the gig cause their tube went bad. Lots of shit goes on and their are a LOT of guys who arent prepared. I even let friends use my entire rig for logistical reasons..etc.
If your a fellow guitarist I have always tried to help out. I understand you wanna get as much as you can and the tube market is sky high right now, but if I'm selling tubes that I bought for 12-15 dollars and bumped them up to 40 I wouldnt feel right about it. problem is you dont know who would buy and turn around and flip them or who really needs them. All I can do is hope they need them and get back up and running.
To each his own..........
If your a fellow guitarist I have always tried to help out. I understand you wanna get as much as you can and the tube market is sky high right now, but if I'm selling tubes that I bought for 12-15 dollars and bumped them up to 40 I wouldnt feel right about it. problem is you dont know who would buy and turn around and flip them or who really needs them. All I can do is hope they need them and get back up and running.
To each his own..........
Rick Lee
Well-known member
If you sell them for market price, then it'd be hard for someone to flip them. If you sell them for what you paid, that's your prerogative. Just know that you will pay the difference to replenish your stash. I don't sell anything for less than the market will bear.