Low output pickups and high gain amps.

MadAsAHatter

MadAsAHatter

Well-known member
I was watching one of @Bad.Seed recent videos where he's talking about low and high output pickups through high gain amps.



He had 2 main premises.

1. High output pickups are not needed to drive a high gain amp.
No argument from me here, I fully agree with this. Modern high gain amps have more than enough preamp saturation that you don't need the extra ass from high output pickups to push it. I would want to add to Kyle's premise here that hitting the front end of an amp harder doesn't always have the same effect depending on the source. For instance, using high output pickups is a different experience than using a boost. Both will push the front end of the amp more, but pickups typically don't tighten the low end the same way a boost pedal does. Since we're talking about pushing the front end this is a worthwhile distinction to make.

2. In general lower output PAF style pickups have more clarity and articulation than high output pickups through a high gain amp.
I can't deny that a good set of low output PAF style pickups sound great in numerous applications, even high gain. I do think that basing clarity and articulation solely on the output of a pickup is too simplistic. I know Kyle put in the caveat that this statement is a generalization and there are exceptions to the rule, but there's too many exceptions to even say there's a rule to begin with.

There's too much that goes into pickup design to put everything on output alone. I'm no pickup designer, but I do know that magnets, wire gauge, number of windings, winding pattern, slugs or screws, cover or no cover, etc. All play a role. To me that says there really are no hard rules when it comes to how pickups sound. The closest thing I think you could call a rule would be is if the design, materials, and construction stay the same then two of the same model pickup should sound relatively similar. Or maybe if you take a particular pickup and change one element; say the magnet, it will change the sound in this way. But that doesn't necessarily mean that same magnet will change tone the same way in all pickups. And that's just thinking of the pickup alone. Let's not forget that guitar wiring and pot choices will have an impact on tone and clarity as well.

Just to throw in my own real world example: A while back I did some magnet swap experiments on JB pickup. I went through most of what was available from A2 to A9 to ceramic magnets. Each magnet made a noticeable difference in overall tone, clarity and articulation. Some were more clear and or articulate than others. For instance the oriented vs unoriented A5 magnet. The output was almost exactly the same. OA5 had a decent EQ curve, but sounded comparatively like mud where the UA5 had the same EQ curve, but was much more clear. Another comparison is A5 vs A6. Both had similar outputs , but the A6 was mud-butt city compared to the A5. Last comparison I'll note is A8, A9 & ceramic. All had a bit more output than the stock A5 and to my ears had better tone and more clarity. The A8 had a great articulation and sweet singing quality to it the way you think of a PAF style pickup. The A9 took that and added a modern sounding touch. Like the A8 & A9 the ceramic was clearer than the A5, but less "musical" than the A8 & A9. My favorite magnets in the JB were an A8 and A9.

Anyway, I'm not trying to rip on Kyle here. He put up a great video as always and brings up a very interesting topic. His video also works as a general pickup comparison for the ones he featured. I just think there's more to it than output alone that warrants more in depth discussion. What do you all think? I'd love to hear from one of our resident pickup gurus. I'm sure @scottosan has some good insight on this topic.
 
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I came to the same realization as Kyle a few years ago. I'd been using primarily Seymour Duncan SH-5 bridge pickups in many of my guitars. They have a relatively high output of 14+ ohms. When I got my Gibson SG-1 about 4 years ago, it had a set of Seth Lovers in it. I liked them instantly. They definitely have better note definition and clarity, and a warmth to them that the SH-5s don't have. I figured I would end up using a little more gain to compensate for the lower output, but I don't. I haven't made any significant adjustments to my amp or pedal settings.
 
I was watching one of @Bad.Seed recent videos where he's talking about low and high output pickups through high gain amps.



He had 2 main premises.

1. High output pickups are not needed to drive a high gain amp.
No argument from me here, I fully agree with this. Modern high gain amps have more than enough preamp saturation that you don't need the extra ass from high output pickups to push it. I would want to add to Kyle's premise here that hitting the front end of an amp harder doesn't always have the same effect depending on the source. For instance, using high output pickups is a different experience than using a boost. Both will push the front end of the amp more, but pickups typically don't tighten the low end the same way a boost pedal does. Since we're talking about pushing the front end this is a worthwhile distinction to make.

2. In general lower output PAF style pickups have more clarity and articulation than high output pickups through a high gain amp.
I can't deny that a good set of low output PAF style pickups sound great in numerous applications, even high gain. I do think that basing clarity and articulation solely on the output of a pickup is too simplistic. I know Kyle put in the caveat that this statement is a generalization and there are exceptions to the rule, but there's too many exceptions to even say there's a rule to begin with.

There's too much that goes into pickup design to put everything on output alone. I'm no pickup designer, but I do know that magnets, wire gauge, number of windings, winding pattern, slugs or screws, cover or no cover, etc. All play a role. To me that says there really are no hard rules when it comes to how pickups sound. The closest thing I think you could call a rule would be is if the design, materials, and construction stay the same then two of the same model pickup should sound relatively similar. Or maybe if you take a particular pickup and change one element; say the magnet, it will change the sound in this way. But that doesn't necessarily mean that same magnet will change tone the same way in all pickups. And that's just thinking of the pickup alone. Let's not forget that guitar wiring and pot choices will have an impact on tone and clarity as well.

Just to throw in my own real world example: A while back I did some magnet swap experiments on JB pickup. I went through most of what was available from A2 to A9 to ceramic magnets. Each magnet made a noticeable difference in overall tone, clarity and articulation. Some were more clear and or articulate than others. For instance the oriented vs unoriented A5 magnet. The output was almost exactly the same. OA5 had a decent EQ curve, but sounded comparatively like mud where the UA5 had the same EQ curve, but was much more clear. Another comparison is A5 vs A6. Both had similar outputs , but the A6 was mud-butt city compared to the A5. Last comparison I'll note is A8, A9 & ceramic. All had a bit more output than the stock A5 and to my ears had better tone and more clarity. The A8 had a great articulation and sweet singing quality to it the way you think of a PAF style pickup. The A9 took that and added a modern sounding touch. Like the A8 & A9 the ceramic was clearer than the A5, but less "musical" than the A8 & A9. My favorite magnets in the JB were an A8 and A9.

Anyway, I'm not trying to rip on Kyle here. He put up a great video as always and brings up a very interesting topic. His video also works as a general pickup comparison for the ones he featured. I just think there's more to it than output alone that warrants more in depth discussion. What do you all think? I'd love to hear from one of our resident pickup builders. I'm sure @scottosan has some good insight on this topic.

In the past year I’ve gone 360 on pickups preference. I greatly prefer lower output clear pickups. An A2 or A3 magnet with a higher wind PAF around 8.6k or above does it for me. It’s enough to give some bounce to the feel but remains clear to achieve a nice grind. There’s just much more variety in the achievable tones. My preference is A2 but I think A3 is the most unappreciated magnet for high gain. It won’t much and amp but provide bounce and sizzle at the same time. Blake did a comparison of various magnets in the same pickup. The A3 requires some different eq’ing, but sounds great.

A4 vs A3 in a 14k pickup


A3 vs A5 in a 14k pickup


A3 vs A2 in a 14k pickup
 
In the past year I’ve gone 360 on pickups preference. I greatly prefer lower output clear pickups. An A2 or A3 magnet with a higher wind PAF around 8.6k or above does it for me. It’s enough to give some bounce to the feel but remains clear to achieve a nice grind. There’s just much more variety in the achievable tones. My preference is A2 but I think A3 is the most unappreciated magnet for high gain. It won’t much and amp but provide bounce and sizzle at the same time. Blake did a comparison of various magnets in the same pickup. The A3 requires some different eq’ing, but sounds great.

A4 vs A3 in a 14k pickup


A3 vs A5 in a 14k pickup


A3 vs A2 in a 14k pickup

Totally hear you. A3 in the right pickup/guitar is just magic for my ears. I’ve been getting back into A5 too lately for the authority
 
Years of lurking and neglecting my tone ocd have led me to join this forum. Here is my first post. I too have been running PAF like outputs. 57 classic plus, BBpro, and recently a Fralin P90. The Fralin p90 is an A4 and I've really grown to like it.

Previously I had a SD hot P90 (ceramic) where I swapped magnets with the old original epi magnets (shiny Alnico but unknown flavor) adding some mids and loosing some of the sterile muddiness.

I'm on the fence now to replace the 57 classic plus (A2) and try a set of Fralin Modern PAF or maybe the high output. I have a 50cl and it doesn't get into all out saturation, so I think 13k still should work and not be too hot. I swap guitars for different songs and tunings and ever since I went with the 57 classics, I don't get the easiest pinch harmonics out of them compared to the others above.
 
Years of lurking and neglecting my tone ocd have led me to join this forum. Here is my first post. I too have been running PAF like outputs. 57 classic plus, BBpro, and recently a Fralin P90. The Fralin p90 is an A4 and I've really grown to like it.

Previously I had a SD hot P90 (ceramic) where I swapped magnets with the old original epi magnets (shiny Alnico but unknown flavor) adding some mids and loosing some of the sterile muddiness.

I'm on the fence now to replace the 57 classic plus (A2) and try a set of Fralin Modern PAF or maybe the high output. I have a 50cl and it doesn't get into all out saturation, so I think 13k still should work and not be too hot. I swap guitars for different songs and tunings and ever since I went with the 57 classics, I don't get the easiest pinch harmonics out of them compared to the others above.
Welcome to the rig talk brotherhood. I have found the 57's to be very tough to beat. I don't find them PAF like. I have a set of Seth Lovers that I have tried in two different guitars and wasn't satisfied. Scatter wound unpotted pickups always sound shrill and overly bright through my rig. The 57's have that smooth creamy top end that I find tough to beat.

I have a sentient I'm going to try in the neck of my Edwards LP next. It's uncovered. No one knows this but Duncan covers are a lot harder metal than Gibson covers. I wonder if that effects the tone somehow. Soft cover, soft smooth highs. Hard cover, bright highs. ???
 
Welcome to the rig talk brotherhood. I have found the 57's to be very tough to beat. I don't find them PAF like. I have a set of Seth Lovers that I have tried in two different guitars and wasn't satisfied. Scatter wound unpotted pickups always sound shrill and overly bright through my rig. The 57's have that smooth creamy top end that I find tough to beat.

I have a sentient I'm going to try in the neck of my Edwards LP next. It's uncovered. No one knows this but Duncan covers are a lot harder metal than Gibson covers. I wonder if that effects the tone somehow. Soft cover, soft smooth highs. Hard cover, bright highs. ???
I hear you, I really dig the 57 classics. They are nice and smooth on top. They make the BB pros sound shrill when wide open. I have the zebra uncovered 57s. Maybe I should just buy another EPI LP and use it for pickup tests! I dont need another guitar, I need to practice more.
 
It's all just a function of EQ and which areas you want to boost or not. Pickups and pedals both do it but in different ways with different parts. Any combo of them can produce desirable tones, so really it just comes down to personal preference of however many permutations you've managed to try.
 
I hear you, I really dig the 57 classics. They are nice and smooth on top. They make the BB pros sound shrill when wide open. I have the zebra uncovered 57s. Maybe I should just buy another EPI LP and use it for pickup tests! I dont need another guitar, I need to practice more.
Exactly. Smooth and the bridge can do a nice honk with the tone rolled back and 50's wiring. Great middle position tones that way also for blues stuff. The Epi LP is a good idea. I bought my Edwards LP for pickup testing. cause it's an easy swap compared to my ES. It's a great guitar and I had half a dozen different neck pickups in there and the 57 was still better than any of them. I'm trying the Sentient I ripped out of my LTD next. Swaps are real simple in an LP and since an LP has a pretty well known sound it's gives you a better baseline for considering pickups for your main players. At least, that was my thought at the time...
 
I don't like the thin compressed sound of most high output pickups.

If you want high gain but not thin EMG's are for you.
 
It's all just a function of EQ and which areas you want to boost or not. Pickups and pedals both do it but in different ways with different parts. Any combo of them can produce desirable tones, so really it just comes down to personal preference of however many permutations you've managed to try.
Here's the answer.

Also, A lot of people think of high output pickups as compressed, well it's really just because the gain level has been increased and with more gain you get more compression. You can try lowering the pickup, or perhaps lowering the gain on your amp or pedal to comphensate for this increase in output to match the gain level of a low output pickup and you'll probably have a similar compression level.
 
I don't like the thin compressed sound of most high output pickups.

If you want high gain but not thin EMG's are for you.
EMG's are very balanced, but they do have a high and low cut effect to them which narrows the tone a bit. The crucial thing here is that they're very balanced in their midrange which makes them sound big in a mix.
 
EMG's are very balanced, but they do have a high and low cut effect to them which narrows the tone a bit. The crucial thing here is that they're very balanced in their midrange which makes them sound big in a mix.
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EMG's are very balanced, but they do have a high and low cut effect to them which narrows the tone a bit. The crucial thing here is that they're very balanced in their midrange which makes them sound big in a mix.
For me balance is key, that's why I will never sell my Tom Holmes PAF's.
 
I like all varieties of pickups, but my favorites also have always been low output. I love good PAF’s, but my favorites are vintage Gretsch pickups, especially the ‘60’s Supertrons and also love ‘60’s Mini-humbuckers

I overall enjoy more those more aggressive, grindy takes on low output pickups to the more midrangey sweeter paf flavor
 
Here's the answer.

Also, A lot of people think of high output pickups as compressed, well it's really just because the gain level has been increased and with more gain you get more compression. You can try lowering the pickup, or perhaps lowering the gain on your amp or pedal to comphensate for this increase in output to match the gain level of a low output pickup and you'll probably have a similar compression level.
Similar levels, but still different IME. The feel is different too. In that scenario too the low output pickups IME still have more clarity and detail that Kyle mentioned and I find with lowering the gain or pickup it further exposes that character of the higher output pickup not having the same type of clarity (it can be better disguised with higher gain). I see them as just 2 different types tools and like good examples of both
 
Finally came to the conclusion that EMG 81s are weak, honky ass pickups. I don't know why I spent so long trying to get them to work. They do have a lot of mid clarity. I like them better with the preamp.

High output pickups are not needed to drive a high gain amp.
No argument from me here, I fully agree with this. Modern high gain amps have more than enough preamp saturation that you don't need the extra ass from high output pickups to push it.
What does "needed" mean though? Like you can still make a sound? As mentioned there are a lot of variables and dynamics to consider...
 
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What does "needed" mean though? Like you can still make a sound? As mentioned there are a lot of variables and dynamics to consider...

Pretty much what Kyle was saying on the video. High gain amps can achieve high levels of saturation on their own without having to hit the front end hard with a large signal. As opposed to say a JTM45 that needs a higher input signal to drive the amp into levels of saturation suitable for heavier rock.
 
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