Low output pickups and high gain amps.

I agree with Kyle for the most part

Vastly prefer low and medium output with high gain amps

For 800 gain level though high output is awesome

There's use cases for everything
 
MadAsAHatter said:
Pretty much what Kyle was saying on the video. High gain amps can achieve high levels of saturation on their own without having to hit the front end hard with a large signal. As opposed to say a JTM45 that needs a higher input signal to drive the amp into levels of saturation suitable for heavier rock.
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Ill listen to the video, but I have found that the main reason for boosting and/or using a higher output pickup is mostly unrelated to the level of distortion, but more about a quality of "fullness" to the sound. I don't even use the drive on my overdrive pedals, it's the volume and eq I'm after, which could just as soon be accomplished with a given pickup I'd reckon.
 
I have several Gibson and Fenders with Duncans (JB / Custom / Pearly Gates). I also have several ESP guitars that have EMGs (81 / Het / 57). I love my passives in many applications, but when going for an aggressive "metal" rhythm tone (which is certainly Kyles's objective) it's still tough to beat the original....EMG 81. That said, I tend to plug straight and rarely boost. Kyle is typically taking a very high-gain amp, then boosting the hell out of it. You can definitely get some good metal tones with lower output passives following this procedure.
 
Put a Raw Vintage RV-PAF bridge pickup on my superstrat and haven't looked back ever since.

8.1k dc with Alnico V magnet, a combo that's tough to beat.
 
Out of curiosity, what is the rank order of importance in making a high gain pickup?

For example, is it:

1. Magnet type
2. Wire gauge
3. Wire windings

Or what you say?

Interesting nonetheless. Because I mainly like to play metal, I assumed I needed higher output pickups. Now wondering if that is causing a thinner tone.
 
i'm a Holmes 450 7.8k man myself, a happy accident only because Tom ran out of 455s at the time i contacted him!

here's a cool pickup convo i had with a close friend of the supreme commander of the legato universe, Mr. Allan Holdsworth. i purchased a Magic Stomp II from Chip autographed by Allan.

CF:
I was just asked if Al changed his solo patches on the Magicstomp frequently . In the last few years only two major times I know of : 1) when the Lithium pickup by Kiesel came out and it was hotter than his usual strength, 2) when he disconnected the tone control . From room to room, he would use the TC Parametric for minute adjustments in 4x12's he rented ...

JP:
When was he using lithiums? I thought his guitars always had his model of pickups.

CF:
they'd come from Kiesel with Lithiums .. the ones he recorded with at home he'd use a Duncan '59 Double Screw with an aged magnet .. He'd take them out if he sold the guitar .. the Lithium AH Double screw was too hot for him ..

JP:
Interesting. I had lithiums in my Kiesel but I hated them and swapped them out for the berylliums. I wanted to go with Holdsworth pickups, but they don't make them in the 8-string variety. I just find it strange that he'd have Kiesel make an HH2 and....

TF:
I didnt know the newer Holdsworth kiesel was lithuim..i have a guitar on order. with that PU...i had a set but i liked the older 22 pole pickup they did in the first place,more...so i put them back in my HH1

CF:
the pickup that was in Allan's guitars a lot from 2010 up was a Gibson 57 Classic. I took that pickup, removed the slugs and added screws, put in a magnet from an Antiquity, and rewound with enamel covered 42 AWG to 7.8K. then i potted it 50/50 beeswax and parafin, and ruined my wife's pot .. Al loved the pickup and used it in everything - I really had no idea what I was doing and had only made pickups ten times before .. he apologized to my wife about the pot ....

GT:
What was the output of that pickup? He liked weaker pickups, right?

CF
7.8k

mentoneman:
this is awesome info! I had a 57 classic in my les paul but it was a bit brittle on the highs. I currently use a Tom Holmes 450 in my Tyler bridge since 2005. 7.8k output!
and btw when speaking with Tom Holmes on the phone when I ordered my 450 pickup, which he normally sells as a neck pickup in a set with the hotter 455 (8.5k) I told him about my experience with the 57 Classic and he mentioned he helped design that pickup with Gibson.

CF:
Tom Holmes pickups are great... I actually made a ghetto version of the Holmes pickup with an additional row of screws .. The double screw thing is still part mystery - the extra row of screws changes the magnetic field (the longer PAF screw) and changes lows to mids ... Not even Seymour understands completely why - it just does ... It doesn't work for everyone especially Marshall players .. But they helped Al unify the guitars 24 frets, and get a balanced sound out of the guitar ... We also had other pickups made for Allan by Rio Grande, and a Wolfetone with a PAF magnet that Al used for a while ... congratulations on the Tom Holmes stuff .. spectacular pickups

DP: The screw poles alter the magnetic field differently than the slugs. If you take a piece of metal like a screwdriver and pull it off the slugs versus the screw poles, the slugs have much stronger magnetic pull than the screw poles. The magnet is butted up to the keeper bar on the screw poles, then there is a gap between the screws and the keeper bar. The slug poles are butted right up to the magnet. The length of the screw poles make a difference as well. Some guys like Neal Schon used to cut off the screw poles underneath flush with the baseplate to get more high end. Why this all happens is for someone else much smarter than me to explain, I'm just a shade tree guitar fixer upper guy.
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one more 7.8k fan:

 
Yeah it's crazy, my Aldrich bridge pickup sounds great but I kind of miss my 2nd Degree Black Belt for exactly the things you guys are describing. I might end up putting it back in one day.
 
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Sorry at @MadAsAHatter , I missed this thread and started a somewhat similar one, although more meant as criticism on Kyle's hyperbolic title...

My experience with medium, high output hb's, alnico vs. ceramic... well, I only have 2 guitars with a Super D at the moment, and one with a JB, (Kramer SM-1) which is a bonafide shredstick, but most of my stuff is all medium to medium high alnico stuff. Owned an EMG 81 equipped guitar for a while, but couldn't gel with the lack of character and feel. Like @angelspade I don't boost that much, but just use high gain amps.
A Dimarzio Norton (which I consider medium/high output, compared to a PAF) brings a ton of clarity, string separation and awesome harmonics into a high gain amp, whereas I find a JB usually a bit mushier...but it works for some stuff.
And, since I also want to be able to enjoy a good clean tone, medium output works better for that than slapping an X2N or Invader in your gitfiddle and hope for the best... 😉
 
I generally pass on Kyle's videos due to the same chugga stuff and he plays and he does not dial in very good tone to my ears
Having said that It makes sense on the surface that in general high out put pups were made to push lower OP amps -all through the 80's
Anyone remember the Duncan Invaders with the huge lugs? I had those in a Ibanez destroyer with a Floyd upgrade in 1983!

Pretty sure I was the first guitarist in Fresno with a Floyd in 83! Anyhow my experience is

Yes - lower out put pups have a little more string clarity, however they squeal if not dipped in wax and can sound thin and lack the balls to handle proper gain.
Granted lately I use a lot less gain than I used too, but more than others. My crunch is a hard rock early 80's ton with a little more balls

The Suhr Aldrich is technically a high gain pup, however it works for me across the board. As I type they are being installed in a Jackson PC-1. I have them in the LP's and they work incredibly well with great string definition and plenty of girth to the tone. Never shrill and plenty of mids!

Here is the Alrich in the R9 using the plexi side of my Friedman 50w JEL. The start I pick a little harder each time to show how digging in gives a little more aggressive tone. Granted this is pretty low gain to some. *Amp is pushed with SD-1 vol on 10 and gain knob on 2.5 ish

 
Took me way too long to figure this concept out. I've always been an active guy into pretty much any amp.

Recently I acquired two ESP USA single cuts and they both came loaded with the SD Alnico IIs. Fully expected to swap out the pickups but into a boosted Recto and straight into the JP2C the Alnico IIs just murdered. More than enough chunk, better clarity, more dynamic.

Into a lower gain amp (800 levels of gain) I still need actives for the type of stuff I play. Both setups sound great, just different signal chains and applications.
 
What works for someone doesn't necessarily work for everyone.

I like some vintage output pickups for Metal, but that doesn't mean there's no room for other beefier/chunkier/louder pickups. Quite the contrary.

I see two big downsides to low output pickup as well:

What clarity and dynamics you gain from using brighter/lower output pickups is often offset by having to run the gain higher for them to sound chunky and saturated. I mean, sure. You haver your rig set up to work with an X2N, and you plug in a PAF-type, the first thing you'll notice is chords are stringier and everything is livelier. But there's also the side where palm-mutes are now weak, scratchy, and undergained. So what do you do? You raise the gain to compensate unless you want the thinner/drier sound of low output pickups with too little gain. At that point, the amp is muddying things up with more gain, and many amps have bright caps that fatten up the amp as you raise the gain. So there's that.

By running the amp gain's higher, you're introducting more preamp hiss. Not a big deal if you have a noise gate, but that means having to run the noise gate harder which might lead into other issues elsewhere.

Again, I do like some lower output pickups for Metal. I particularly like the Duncan '59B, personally. But I also believe that someone argumenting PAF-types are the "right" pickups to use with all high gain amps for all Metal tones is taking it too far. There will always be room for loud, obnoxious pickups, especially with amps that fatten up too much as you raise the gain... which, in all honesty, is most of the amps I like, LOL.
 
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Rex Rocker said:
I like some vintage output pickups for Metal, but that doesn't mean there's no room for other beefier/chunkier/louder pickups. Quite the contrary.
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Kyle even admitted he is going against received wisdom on this one. But apparently most here seem to feel the same way. 🤷‍♂️
 
acceptance said:
Kyle even admitted he is going against received wisdom on this one. But apparently most here seem to feel the same way. 🤷‍♂️
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I was watching his vid yesterday, but I don't remember the exact wording he used. He's usually a pretty chill dude on his vids, so I'm not necessarily saying he's wrong. I'm more addressing the common belief that just because your pickups are wound lighter, that immediately translates into better tone, all things considered.

Again, I don't dislike PAF-types for Metal. I'm just presenting the counter argument.

JMO, of course.
 
I have never been a fan of super hot pick-ups, and all I mostly play is heavy metal/shred rock. Neat to see more videos like this coming out. I like Kyle's playing and videos, so I'll definitely give it a looksie!
 
I also personally really like the Fishman Fluence Classics in PAF mode as well as the DiMarzio PAF Pro. And the Gibson Burstbucker Pro.

What I don't like, personally, is the underwound type of PAF-types. Like. 7K-ish for the bridge, I mean. I feel they start getting too single coil-y and wimpy for my taste.

I also don't tend to like A2 magnets as they seem a bit too laid-back and not as immediate as A5.
 
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