Module level / Master level question..

[Jeff Hilligan]

Sounds very Dream Theaterish...sounds great to me!

 

[aeroic]

Sounds very Dream Theaterish...sounds great to me!

+1...I really like the tone . Reminds me Dream Theater meets Opeth.

I agree that a lot of the clean / mid-gain sounds have something to be desired though. I'd want it more for the heavy stuff, and definitely the Effects anyways. And I have to say I don't think a POD will be able to get that tone at all. Things I have heard with using PODs and ToneLab's direct is the mid-range is absolutely unusable. When you start layering and double tracking, the mids just make the guitars start to sound like pure mush. I'll have to say, I was rather impressed with the AxeFX and recording direct. I used to use a Tonelab LE to record ideas, and after 3-4 tracks of it on higher gain settings, my mix went to mush and was harsh and sterile.

Eric

 

[EWSEthan]

I used to hate on PODs and still dont really like them, but sometimes they can surprise you. I remember a thread where a guy posted a clip and asked everyone to guess the amp. People guessed XTC and SLO. He later revealed it was a POD. The tone was awesome!

 

[king tone]

In order for your loop levels to be controllable your main master needs to be at 2 or 3 o clock. Other wise its a matter of preference.

Not to hijack this thread but I think it is somewhat related.

Tell me in more detail what you mean...
Are you saying the main master is the overall master volume of the amp or per module?

I would like to get my module masters higher, sort of to simulate not having a master volume and getting the hottest signal that can be used before the poweramp but I guess I need a line level shifter or something. Is the ebtech what you recommend or is there a better solution? I am running a yamaha ud stomp in the parallel loop. I originally thought the yamaha was line level which may be a mistake, there is no indication in the manual although there is a switch for the input(high-low) I do not think it is a
-10 or +4 switch. I would say my t/d module is about 12 oclock on gain and between 3 to 4 oclock on module master. The sl2 is balanced to the clean, somewhere around 12 to 1 oclock gain and 12 oclock module master. Does this seem to hot, to low or what? Will this be hotter with the level shifter? Some say tonal differences...any ideas? Is there a sort of (roughly) "unity" setting if you were not using the loop? Thanks!

I am still anxious to hear comments on my highlighted questions...I want to know if it is worth getting an ebtech or similar device for getting module masters higher or is the change minimal. I am getting the vibe that maybe the masters can only go so far regardless...comments..?

 

[Valtiel]

In order for your loop levels to be controllable your main master needs to be at 2 or 3 o clock. Other wise its a matter of preference.

Not to hijack this thread but I think it is somewhat related.

Tell me in more detail what you mean...
Are you saying the main master is the overall master volume of the amp or per module?

I would like to get my module masters higher, sort of to simulate not having a master volume and getting the hottest signal that can be used before the poweramp but I guess I need a line level shifter or something. Is the ebtech what you recommend or is there a better solution? I am running a yamaha ud stomp in the parallel loop. I originally thought the yamaha was line level which may be a mistake, there is no indication in the manual although there is a switch for the input(high-low) I do not think it is a
-10 or +4 switch. I would say my t/d module is about 12 oclock on gain and between 3 to 4 oclock on module master. The sl2 is balanced to the clean, somewhere around 12 to 1 oclock gain and 12 oclock module master. Does this seem to hot, to low or what? Will this be hotter with the level shifter? Some say tonal differences...any ideas? Is there a sort of (roughly) "unity" setting if you were not using the loop? Thanks!

I am still anxious to hear comments on my highlighted questions...I want to know if it is worth getting an ebtech or similar device for getting module masters higher or is the change minimal. I am getting the vibe that maybe the masters can only go so far regardless...comments..?

Getting an Ebtech just to get the masters higher is pretty pointless. If you arent clipping the Yamaha then dont worry about it. The Ebtech will attenuate the signal which you will then compensate for by turning up the module masters, but whats the point? The end result is the same, so you may as well save the money.

 

[king tone]

In order for your loop levels to be controllable your main master needs to be at 2 or 3 o clock. Other wise its a matter of preference.

Not to hijack this thread but I think it is somewhat related.

Tell me in more detail what you mean...
Are you saying the main master is the overall master volume of the amp or per module?

I would like to get my module masters higher, sort of to simulate not having a master volume and getting the hottest signal that can be used before the poweramp but I guess I need a line level shifter or something. Is the ebtech what you recommend or is there a better solution? I am running a yamaha ud stomp in the parallel loop. I originally thought the yamaha was line level which may be a mistake, there is no indication in the manual although there is a switch for the input(high-low) I do not think it is a
-10 or +4 switch. I would say my t/d module is about 12 oclock on gain and between 3 to 4 oclock on module master. The sl2 is balanced to the clean, somewhere around 12 to 1 oclock gain and 12 oclock module master. Does this seem to hot, to low or what? Will this be hotter with the level shifter? Some say tonal differences...any ideas? Is there a sort of (roughly) "unity" setting if you were not using the loop? Thanks!

I am still anxious to hear comments on my highlighted questions...I want to know if it is worth getting an ebtech or similar device for getting module masters higher or is the change minimal. I am getting the vibe that maybe the masters can only go so far regardless...comments..?

Getting an Ebtech just to get the masters higher is pretty pointless. If you arent clipping the Yamaha then dont worry about it. The Ebtech will attenuate the signal which you will then compensate for by turning up the module masters, but whats the point? The end result is the same, so you may as well save the money.

Is it the same? It sounds like the way you put it that I need the ebtech. The parallel loop is the one I am using at this point. The thing is, the yamaha is very close to getting into a clipping situation, especially on certain presets. I have to make sure the masters are low enough so that it is not clipping. I am just wondering if I get the ebtech that maybe it will calm the sent signal to the yamaha down a bit and I can get the masters just a little hotter and have the effects clean like they are with the masters down just with them up. If the send is weaker I can always pull the effects mix up...I have plenty of room to go. I want the signal to be as hot as I can get away with so the amp will have the most headroom and volume available that it can have.

 

[Valtiel]

In order for your loop levels to be controllable your main master needs to be at 2 or 3 o clock. Other wise its a matter of preference.

Not to hijack this thread but I think it is somewhat related.

Tell me in more detail what you mean...
Are you saying the main master is the overall master volume of the amp or per module?

I would like to get my module masters higher, sort of to simulate not having a master volume and getting the hottest signal that can be used before the poweramp but I guess I need a line level shifter or something. Is the ebtech what you recommend or is there a better solution? I am running a yamaha ud stomp in the parallel loop. I originally thought the yamaha was line level which may be a mistake, there is no indication in the manual although there is a switch for the input(high-low) I do not think it is a
-10 or +4 switch. I would say my t/d module is about 12 oclock on gain and between 3 to 4 oclock on module master. The sl2 is balanced to the clean, somewhere around 12 to 1 oclock gain and 12 oclock module master. Does this seem to hot, to low or what? Will this be hotter with the level shifter? Some say tonal differences...any ideas? Is there a sort of (roughly) "unity" setting if you were not using the loop? Thanks!

I am still anxious to hear comments on my highlighted questions...I want to know if it is worth getting an ebtech or similar device for getting module masters higher or is the change minimal. I am getting the vibe that maybe the masters can only go so far regardless...comments..?

Getting an Ebtech just to get the masters higher is pretty pointless. If you arent clipping the Yamaha then dont worry about it. The Ebtech will attenuate the signal which you will then compensate for by turning up the module masters, but whats the point? The end result is the same, so you may as well save the money.

Is it the same? It sounds like the way you put it that I need the ebtech. The parallel loop is the one I am using at this point. The thing is, the yamaha is very close to getting into a clipping situation, especially on certain presets. I have to make sure the masters are low enough so that it is not clipping. I am just wondering if I get the ebtech that maybe it will calm the sent signal to the yamaha down a bit and I can get the masters just a little hotter and have the effects clean like they are with the masters down just with them up. If the send is weaker I can always pull the effects mix up...I have plenty of room to go. I want the signal to be as hot as I can get away with so the amp will have the most headroom and volume available that it can have.

But thats the thing, regardless of whether or not you use the Ebtech, you will always be limited by whatever the hottest signal the Yamaha can handle is. Picture this, for the sake of simplicity lets say that the Yamaha can handle a signal of "5", and the modules can put out a max signal of "10", so you have to keep them lower so they dont clip the Yamaha. The Ebtech would just act like a speed bump between the amp and the Yamaha, lessening the strength of the signal being sent to it. So now you crank your module master all the way up sending a signal of "10" but the Ebtech knocks that signal down to "5". Now you've just spent $80 to get you right back where you were in the first place. The Ebtech was mainly designed for use in situations where you have limited or no control over the signal strength, with the Egnater you do. Just keep the masters low enough to prevent clipping, cranking them higher AND using the Ebtech isnt going to make anything "hotter" because it will just be getting knocked right back down when it hits the Ebtech.

I want the signal to be as hot as I can get away with

I pulled this quote just to be clear, the signal IS as hot as it can get already. Bottom line is that only Line Level stuff should be used in the loop, thats how it was designed. If you are using something that cant handle that, you will be limiting yourself.

 

[king tone]

In order for your loop levels to be controllable your main master needs to be at 2 or 3 o clock. Other wise its a matter of preference.

Not to hijack this thread but I think it is somewhat related.

Tell me in more detail what you mean...
Are you saying the main master is the overall master volume of the amp or per module?

I would like to get my module masters higher, sort of to simulate not having a master volume and getting the hottest signal that can be used before the poweramp but I guess I need a line level shifter or something. Is the ebtech what you recommend or is there a better solution? I am running a yamaha ud stomp in the parallel loop. I originally thought the yamaha was line level which may be a mistake, there is no indication in the manual although there is a switch for the input(high-low) I do not think it is a
-10 or +4 switch. I would say my t/d module is about 12 oclock on gain and between 3 to 4 oclock on module master. The sl2 is balanced to the clean, somewhere around 12 to 1 oclock gain and 12 oclock module master. Does this seem to hot, to low or what? Will this be hotter with the level shifter? Some say tonal differences...any ideas? Is there a sort of (roughly) "unity" setting if you were not using the loop? Thanks!

I am still anxious to hear comments on my highlighted questions...I want to know if it is worth getting an ebtech or similar device for getting module masters higher or is the change minimal. I am getting the vibe that maybe the masters can only go so far regardless...comments..?

Getting an Ebtech just to get the masters higher is pretty pointless. If you arent clipping the Yamaha then dont worry about it. The Ebtech will attenuate the signal which you will then compensate for by turning up the module masters, but whats the point? The end result is the same, so you may as well save the money.

Is it the same? It sounds like the way you put it that I need the ebtech. The parallel loop is the one I am using at this point. The thing is, the yamaha is very close to getting into a clipping situation, especially on certain presets. I have to make sure the masters are low enough so that it is not clipping. I am just wondering if I get the ebtech that maybe it will calm the sent signal to the yamaha down a bit and I can get the masters just a little hotter and have the effects clean like they are with the masters down just with them up. If the send is weaker I can always pull the effects mix up...I have plenty of room to go. I want the signal to be as hot as I can get away with so the amp will have the most headroom and volume available that it can have.

But thats the thing, regardless of whether or not you use the Ebtech, you will always be limited by whatever the hottest signal the Yamaha can handle is. Picture this, for the sake of simplicity lets say that the Yamaha can handle a signal of "5", and the modules can put out a max signal of "10", so you have to keep them lower so they dont clip the Yamaha. The Ebtech would just act like a speed bump between the amp and the Yamaha, lessening the strength of the signal being sent to it. So now you crank your module master all the way up sending a signal of "10" but the Ebtech knocks that signal down to "5". Now you've just spent $80 to get you right back where you were in the first place. The Ebtech was mainly designed for use in situations where you have limited or no control over the signal strength, with the Egnater you do. Just keep the masters low enough to prevent clipping, cranking them higher AND using the Ebtech isnt going to make anything "hotter" because it will just be getting knocked right back down when it hits the Ebtech.

I want the signal to be as hot as I can get away with

I pulled this quote just to be clear, the signal IS as hot as it can get already. Bottom line is that only Line Level stuff should be used in the loop, thats how it was designed. If you are using something that cant handle that, you will be limiting yourself.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my dilemma.

I guess I see this differently...let me just collect my thoughts and see if I am off on this.

I am using the parallel loop with the yamaha. I can keep it from clipping by running the modules at a certain place, which is what I have been doing. If I lessen the impact of the sent signal to the fx unit (a little) by using the ebtech wouldn't that allow me to bring the modules up just a little more to get to that same place since they are not driving the sent signal as hard thereby in the process making the amp louder?

When I said signal as hot as it can be I know the loop is hot, that is my problem. I want the module master signals hot. I mean if I can drive the loop(only) less that seems to be the idea. The silly thing is, the same fx unit works perfectly in the series loop of the seminar head.

 

[Valtiel]

In order for your loop levels to be controllable your main master needs to be at 2 or 3 o clock. Other wise its a matter of preference.

Not to hijack this thread but I think it is somewhat related.

Tell me in more detail what you mean...
Are you saying the main master is the overall master volume of the amp or per module?

I would like to get my module masters higher, sort of to simulate not having a master volume and getting the hottest signal that can be used before the poweramp but I guess I need a line level shifter or something. Is the ebtech what you recommend or is there a better solution? I am running a yamaha ud stomp in the parallel loop. I originally thought the yamaha was line level which may be a mistake, there is no indication in the manual although there is a switch for the input(high-low) I do not think it is a
-10 or +4 switch. I would say my t/d module is about 12 oclock on gain and between 3 to 4 oclock on module master. The sl2 is balanced to the clean, somewhere around 12 to 1 oclock gain and 12 oclock module master. Does this seem to hot, to low or what? Will this be hotter with the level shifter? Some say tonal differences...any ideas? Is there a sort of (roughly) "unity" setting if you were not using the loop? Thanks!

I am still anxious to hear comments on my highlighted questions...I want to know if it is worth getting an ebtech or similar device for getting module masters higher or is the change minimal. I am getting the vibe that maybe the masters can only go so far regardless...comments..?

Getting an Ebtech just to get the masters higher is pretty pointless. If you arent clipping the Yamaha then dont worry about it. The Ebtech will attenuate the signal which you will then compensate for by turning up the module masters, but whats the point? The end result is the same, so you may as well save the money.

Is it the same? It sounds like the way you put it that I need the ebtech. The parallel loop is the one I am using at this point. The thing is, the yamaha is very close to getting into a clipping situation, especially on certain presets. I have to make sure the masters are low enough so that it is not clipping. I am just wondering if I get the ebtech that maybe it will calm the sent signal to the yamaha down a bit and I can get the masters just a little hotter and have the effects clean like they are with the masters down just with them up. If the send is weaker I can always pull the effects mix up...I have plenty of room to go. I want the signal to be as hot as I can get away with so the amp will have the most headroom and volume available that it can have.

But thats the thing, regardless of whether or not you use the Ebtech, you will always be limited by whatever the hottest signal the Yamaha can handle is. Picture this, for the sake of simplicity lets say that the Yamaha can handle a signal of "5", and the modules can put out a max signal of "10", so you have to keep them lower so they dont clip the Yamaha. The Ebtech would just act like a speed bump between the amp and the Yamaha, lessening the strength of the signal being sent to it. So now you crank your module master all the way up sending a signal of "10" but the Ebtech knocks that signal down to "5". Now you've just spent $80 to get you right back where you were in the first place. The Ebtech was mainly designed for use in situations where you have limited or no control over the signal strength, with the Egnater you do. Just keep the masters low enough to prevent clipping, cranking them higher AND using the Ebtech isnt going to make anything "hotter" because it will just be getting knocked right back down when it hits the Ebtech.

I want the signal to be as hot as I can get away with

I pulled this quote just to be clear, the signal IS as hot as it can get already. Bottom line is that only Line Level stuff should be used in the loop, thats how it was designed. If you are using something that cant handle that, you will be limiting yourself.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my dilemma.

I guess I see this differently...let me just collect my thoughts and see if I am off on this.

I am using the parallel loop with the yamaha. I can keep it from clipping by running the modules at a certain place, which is what I have been doing. If I lessen the impact of the sent signal to the fx unit (a little) by using the ebtech wouldn't that allow me to bring the modules up just a little more to get to that same place since they are not driving the sent signal as hard thereby in the process making the amp louder?

When I said signal as hot as it can be I know the loop is hot, that is my problem. I want the module master signals hot. I mean if I can drive the loop(only) less that seems to be the idea. The silly thing is, the same fx unit works perfectly in the series loop of the seminar head.

No problem! I hadnt really taken into consideration the fact that you are using the Parallel loop with the mix fairly low. In that case, using the Ebtech would allow you to crank the module masters higher which, since the Parallel loop passes an unaffected signal, should allow you to squeeze more volume out of the head while preventing clipping on the Yamaha. The only issue at that point is whether or not you will be able to get enough "effect" with the Effects blend knob on the front. If you've got $80 kickin around I think it might be worth a try.

 

[king tone]

In order for your loop levels to be controllable your main master needs to be at 2 or 3 o clock. Other wise its a matter of preference.

Not to hijack this thread but I think it is somewhat related.

Tell me in more detail what you mean...
Are you saying the main master is the overall master volume of the amp or per module?

I would like to get my module masters higher, sort of to simulate not having a master volume and getting the hottest signal that can be used before the poweramp but I guess I need a line level shifter or something. Is the ebtech what you recommend or is there a better solution? I am running a yamaha ud stomp in the parallel loop. I originally thought the yamaha was line level which may be a mistake, there is no indication in the manual although there is a switch for the input(high-low) I do not think it is a
-10 or +4 switch. I would say my t/d module is about 12 oclock on gain and between 3 to 4 oclock on module master. The sl2 is balanced to the clean, somewhere around 12 to 1 oclock gain and 12 oclock module master. Does this seem to hot, to low or what? Will this be hotter with the level shifter? Some say tonal differences...any ideas? Is there a sort of (roughly) "unity" setting if you were not using the loop? Thanks!

I am still anxious to hear comments on my highlighted questions...I want to know if it is worth getting an ebtech or similar device for getting module masters higher or is the change minimal. I am getting the vibe that maybe the masters can only go so far regardless...comments..?

Getting an Ebtech just to get the masters higher is pretty pointless. If you arent clipping the Yamaha then dont worry about it. The Ebtech will attenuate the signal which you will then compensate for by turning up the module masters, but whats the point? The end result is the same, so you may as well save the money.

Is it the same? It sounds like the way you put it that I need the ebtech. The parallel loop is the one I am using at this point. The thing is, the yamaha is very close to getting into a clipping situation, especially on certain presets. I have to make sure the masters are low enough so that it is not clipping. I am just wondering if I get the ebtech that maybe it will calm the sent signal to the yamaha down a bit and I can get the masters just a little hotter and have the effects clean like they are with the masters down just with them up. If the send is weaker I can always pull the effects mix up...I have plenty of room to go. I want the signal to be as hot as I can get away with so the amp will have the most headroom and volume available that it can have.

But thats the thing, regardless of whether or not you use the Ebtech, you will always be limited by whatever the hottest signal the Yamaha can handle is. Picture this, for the sake of simplicity lets say that the Yamaha can handle a signal of "5", and the modules can put out a max signal of "10", so you have to keep them lower so they dont clip the Yamaha. The Ebtech would just act like a speed bump between the amp and the Yamaha, lessening the strength of the signal being sent to it. So now you crank your module master all the way up sending a signal of "10" but the Ebtech knocks that signal down to "5". Now you've just spent $80 to get you right back where you were in the first place. The Ebtech was mainly designed for use in situations where you have limited or no control over the signal strength, with the Egnater you do. Just keep the masters low enough to prevent clipping, cranking them higher AND using the Ebtech isnt going to make anything "hotter" because it will just be getting knocked right back down when it hits the Ebtech.

I want the signal to be as hot as I can get away with

I pulled this quote just to be clear, the signal IS as hot as it can get already. Bottom line is that only Line Level stuff should be used in the loop, thats how it was designed. If you are using something that cant handle that, you will be limiting yourself.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my dilemma.

I guess I see this differently...let me just collect my thoughts and see if I am off on this.

I am using the parallel loop with the yamaha. I can keep it from clipping by running the modules at a certain place, which is what I have been doing. If I lessen the impact of the sent signal to the fx unit (a little) by using the ebtech wouldn't that allow me to bring the modules up just a little more to get to that same place since they are not driving the sent signal as hard thereby in the process making the amp louder?

When I said signal as hot as it can be I know the loop is hot, that is my problem. I want the module master signals hot. I mean if I can drive the loop(only) less that seems to be the idea. The silly thing is, the same fx unit works perfectly in the series loop of the seminar head.

No problem! I hadnt really taken into consideration the fact that you are using the Parallel loop with the mix fairly low. In that case, using the Ebtech would allow you to crank the module masters higher which, since the Parallel loop passes an unaffected signal, should allow you to squeeze more volume out of the head while preventing clipping on the Yamaha. The only issue at that point is whether or not you will be able to get enough "effect" with the Effects blend knob on the front. If you've got $80 kickin around I think it might be worth a try.

I may check it out. I think musicians friend and sweetwater has them and they have a return policy if it did not work well. I just got home from a playing and the mod 50 was pretty cranking! I was running it with the main master at halfway up sl2 was around half, td (a channel) wide open and gain close to half if I remember correctly, running through a port city oversized 1x12. Maybe I do not need more level...