Most Overrated/Underrated Tone

[braintheory]

You lose me a bit with your Rick Graham appreciation. Nothing against him, but it's all incredibly boring, repetitive technical prowess with no feel/feeling in his playing. It's cool to be a master technician, muscle memory to play accurately but he seems to be just that. Could he play a blues tune? Improv at all? I don't listen to him regularly but from what I've seen he's like a GIT grad who has mastered all the sweeps/scales etc and plays very accurately.
Personally, I take a Gary Moore/Gilmour type who played with 'feel' every time over a super accurate shred type. You can tell when Gary 'digs in' and really attacks the guitar. That's what gets me. Playing with great 'feel' for the instrument, not just repetitive muscle memory stuff with great accuracy. EVH also had that....and all of his leads were improv. Some better than others, and I don't agree that he 'tried to fit as many notes in' .....that award goes to YJM. Lol

I was saying in my posts that in terms of musical content Rick Graham is a zero to me. No argument there. I just meant his technique and overall command of the instrument. I think he actually plays with very good feel, but when the music itself isn’t good at all lol that’s harder to notice, but good technique is almost always apparent. Basically I separate things and try to acknowledge the good and bad. Yngwie malmsteen to me, like you said, is terrible in terms of the actual musical content and tons of other guys can outdo him technically, but his tone, vibrato and feel is imo very high level, although he does often overdo his vibrato I feel

I would of course also easily rather listen to Moore or Gilmour over those guys for music that actually tells me something. They have great musical content and play that good content with at least as good if not better feeling, they have the soul, but that’s not relevant really to what I was talking about. I didn’t say EVH or even Yngwie were trying to fit as many notes in as possible, but they were playing leads with the clear intention to be showy and try to impress you. Both players leads to me didn’t have any real story or coherent thread in the leads. This combined with that noodly and at times gimmicky style of leadwork is partly why I found it obnoxious in the case of EVH. The leadwork for the most part at least didn’t have imo anything interesting going on melodically, harmonically or in terms of counterpoint or even little licks that I thought sounded that cool. With great musicians like Gilmour or Rhoads their leads actual had a story to tell me musically in what they composed in their solos. Perfect examples are Comfortably Numb and the 1st solo in Mr Crowley. Those solos gave me goosebumps and felt like a connection with those artists of shared feelings me and them can both relate on. That’s kinda what art is largely about to me anyway. I can’t do that with the solos of EVH that I’ve heard, but of course not with Yngwie or Graham either lol

 

[Meanjoegreene]

I feel the opposite about EVH. I hear him doing all the cool and innovative stuff within the context of the song. A bunch of his solos are kinda random but organized techniques that fit but are out there at the same time. Imho that’s crazy hard to pull off in a short radio friendly rock space.

But the folks that came after just heard the tapping and note flurries and didn’t how to mix that with the other stuff in a musical way. To me besides innovation his ability to do the crazy cool stuff musically is what made him great.

I never argued that. I give absolute credit about his sound being completely new (regardless if I mention things about the tone that I didn’t like), his rhythm being great, I was just talking about his lead work, which I really didn’t like and more importantly it sadly inspired other to do the same with that noodly gobbly gook way. The guitar world would be a much better place imo if they emulated their leads after more musical players like Gilmour, Rhoads or Friedman where the solos actually enhanced the song and tell a story that can be moving. With those players the solos were sometimes like a song within a song or the highlight of the song

With Dime’s tone I feel there were good and bad things about it and I try to take the good from it as influence, but I get why it’s so love or hate for most

 

[cardinal]

I kinda want to Adam Jones for both over and underrated. I feel like it's underrated because that type of tone IMHO sounds killer with any genre that would use overdriven guitar, not just obsessive Tool fanboys. But it's overrated because of the absurd lengths people will go to try to get it. Just a hot pickup into a Marshall IMHO gets the job done.

 

[Smash]

Couple things though about EVH....you have to remember that in 78, there was no sound like that in rock. It was super bright and aggressive; vs anything else at the time. So now looking back at that tone, there are many other records that have eclipsed that. I like the tone off of VHII best from the VH collection; Fair Warning also.

Dime's tone was horseshit. Fucking terrible 8th grader with his first metal core pedal jerking off to his first playboy terrible. Just garbage. That said, it was HIS tone. Iconic for that amazing Pantera first album. Dime was also a monster player that attacked the instrument like few others.
But sorry, his tone was shit.

Other shit tone would be ANY Nu Metal garbage, FFDP-when I heard their cover of Holy Diver I thought, who's bright idea was it to play all the guitar parts on an 8 string bass with a metal zone in front? Ugh.

Underrated would be Ty in Gretchen, Audley Freed in Cry of Love(first album) and here's one....Leverty in Firehouse. That is some thick boosted SLO tone.

You wash your mouth with soap...lol

 

[Smash]

I was saying in my posts that in terms of musical content Rick Graham is a zero to me. No argument there. I just meant his technique and overall command of the instrument. I think he actually plays with very good feel, but when the music itself isn’t good at all lol that’s harder to notice, but good technique is almost always apparent. Basically I separate things and try to acknowledge the good and bad. Yngwie malmsteen to me, like you said, is terrible in terms of the actual musical content and tons of other guys can outdo him technically, but his tone, vibrato and feel is imo very high level, although he does often overdo his vibrato I feel

I would of course also easily rather listen to Moore or Gilmour over those guys for music that actually tells me something. They have great musical content and play that good content with at least as good if not better feeling, they have the soul, but that’s not relevant really to what I was talking about. I didn’t say EVH or even Yngwie were trying to fit as many notes in as possible, but they were playing leads with the clear intention to be showy and try to impress you. Both players leads to me always any real story or coherent thread in the leads. This combined with that noodly and at times gimmicky style of leadwork is partly why I found it obnoxious in the case of EVH. The leadwork for the most part at least didn’t have imo anything interesting going on melodically, harmonically or in terms of counterpoint or even little licks that I thought sounded that cool. With great musicians like Gilmour or Rhoads their leads actual had a story to tell me musically in what they composed in their solos. Perfect examples are Comfortably Numb and the 1st solo in Mr Crowley. Those solos gave me goosebumps and felt like a connection with those artists of shared feelings me and them can both relate on. That’s kinda what art is largely about to me anyway. I can’t do that with the solos of EVH that I’ve heard, but of course not with Yngwie or Graham either lol

No. I said evh was trying to fit as many notes as possible. That where the tapping came in. Trash. I said it. When i learned to masturbate, I went as fast as i could. Think evh was doing the same thing.

 

[Smash]

I kinda want to Adam Jones for both over and underrated. I feel like it's underrated because that type of tone IMHO sounds killer with any genre that would use overdriven guitar, not just obsessive Tool fanboys. But it's overrated because of the absurd lengths people will go to try to get it. Just a hot pickup into a Marshall IMHO gets the job done.

I understand what you are saying. I don't care if Jones tone is overrated or underrated. It just sounds like what an overdriven guitar sound should be. It is nasty. It is right

 

[marvcus]

Eyeroll…..

 

[Racerxrated]

You wash your mouth with soap...lol

Haha sorry truth hurts. It was his tone, and absolutely fits for him. That's cool, and he was a fantastic player, IMO maybe the fiercest metal player ever. Loved his attack.
But no one, I repeat no one of any significance(or influence to most guitar players) has tried to emulate that tone other than the Dime heads. That's just the way it is.
Doesn't take away from his talent and influence as a player on thousands of guys....his legacy is cemented forever.

 

[braintheory]

No. I said evh was trying to fit as many notes as possible. That where the tapping came in. Trash. I said it. When i learned to masturbate, I went as fast as i could. Think evh was doing the same thing.

Haha I agree. When I first started guitar at 15 I was blown away at the tapping in eruption. I figured it was this impossible alien thing. I also figured since it would be so hard to play in guitar hero that it must be amazing, but fast forward a year later and it just sounded like juvenile trash to me from a musical standpoint at least

 

[braintheory]

I feel the opposite about EVH. I hear him doing all the cool and innovative stuff within the context of the song. A bunch of his solos are kinda random but organized techniques that fit but are out there at the same time. Imho that’s crazy hard to pull off in a short radio friendly rock space.

But the folks that came after just heard the tapping and note flurries and didn’t how to mix that with the other stuff in a musical way. To me besides innovation his ability to do the crazy cool stuff musically is what made him great.

I don’t know, the crazy train guitar solo by Randy Rhoads as an example is less than 30 seconds long, has tapping in a much more musical way than I ever heard from EVH and despite how short the solo is it seems to tell a coherent story where the notes mostly all make sense. To me, from a musical stand point, it was light years ahead of any leadwork I heard from EVH

 

[Racerxrated]

No. I said evh was trying to fit as many notes as possible. That where the tapping came in. Trash. I said it. When i learned to masturbate, I went as fast as i could. Think evh was doing the same thing.

And, that tells me that IMO you really don't listen to what he does. His tapping was melodic, and absolutely fit everywhere he used it. There's nothing in any of his leads that sound to me like he's trying to fit in as many notes as possible. His phrasing seems to always work to my ear. I would think the Floyd usage would be the only thing that might take away from his leads, but again, both were NEW to the scene at the time. You could compare it to others who used it later, like Reb Beach and say Reb was more melodic or put more notes in the right place....but he did in 15 years after no one other than Ed used it.

This kind of thread basically always ends up in the same place.....we tend to support and prop players that are in our own age group lol...or guys that we grew up with. All you younger dudes who grew up in the 90s tend to not care for 70s/80s players with a few exceptions. Us older guys think the newer players that you guys dig are average haha.
It's easy to look at EVH and say "Ah that's not that great! Blah blah blah this that the other" But what you don't understand or fail to recognize, is this: at the time, there was nothing like that tone/style/ability to shred like EVH. In fact shred didn't exist until Ed.
Try to listen to any bootleg live stuff that's out there....some of his leads are absolutely on fire. He was incredible IMO.

 

[DanTravis62]

I like evhs rhythm playing but I'm with Sam, I think he's lead playing is pretty garbage.

Even from that era I'd rather listen to Mercyful Fate, Maiden, Priest, Accept, Scorpions, Schenker.

EVHs lead stuff just isn't impressive. It's just popular lol

 

[Racerxrated]

Haha I agree. When I first started guitar at 15 I was blown away at the tapping in eruption. I figured it was this impossible alien thing. I also figured since it would be so hard to play in guitar hero that it must be amazing, but fast forward a year later and it just sounded like juvenile trash to me from a musical standpoint at least

Remember rock n roll is supposed to be fun. Three chords and a cloud of dust AC/DC stuff is fun. Is it rewarding to listen to it musically? I have no clue; I like it because it's juvenile and easy to emulate. Just turn it up and enjoy. That's what VH was. Turn it up and have fun. Prog rock is more rewarding from your standpoint, I'd imagine. I listen to whatever makes me smile. Intro to Balls to the Wall? Turn it up.
Juvenile trash? Haha absolutely. But it's fun.

 

[Smash]

And, that tells me that IMO you really don't listen to what he does. His tapping was melodic, and absolutely fit everywhere he used it. There's nothing in any of his leads that sound to me like he's trying to fit in as many notes as possible. His phrasing seems to always work to my ear. I would think the Floyd usage would be the only thing that might take away from his leads, but again, both were NEW to the scene at the time. You could compare it to others who used it later, like Reb Beach and say Reb was more melodic or put more notes in the right place....but he did in 15 years after no one other than Ed used it.

This kind of thread basically always ends up in the same place.....we tend to support and prop players that are in our own age group lol...or guys that we grew up with. All you younger dudes who grew up in the 90s tend to not care for 70s/80s players with a few exceptions. Us older guys think the newer players that you guys dig are average haha.
It's easy to look at EVH and say "Ah that's not that great! Blah blah blah this that the other" But what you don't understand or fail to recognize, is this: at the time, there was nothing like that tone/style/ability to shred like EVH. In fact shred didn't exist until Ed.
Try to listen to any bootleg live stuff that's out there....some of his leads are absolutely on fire. He was incredible IMO.

I will say this. I grew up in a tattoo shop listening to pink floyd, rush, van halen, led zeppelin. That is the sound of my childhood. For me, I think Van halen has some of the best rhythm sound. My opinion on his leads are mine. And i am obnoxious about it, but it is how i feel. If you feel different, god knows, you are in the great majority. Don't think I am against Eddie at all. In addition to hating his solos, though, I also couldn't stand the vocals in his songs...So I am a very anti Vanhalen (the band) guy. Don't let my humorous (to me) and over the top banter confuse that i respect the fuck out of the guy. But it is the same with BBQ. I cook a brisket. You may think it is salty. Another BBQ guy knows that my level of salt takes opens up the other flavors to come out. I love the 70s music. The problem with it is that the radio stations never explored the albums, so we got to listen to the same top 40 shit for soooo long that those songs are fucking tired. And when you go back and just listen to albums of bands that were actually not using fillers, you can find some amazing stuff.

 

[Smash]

Haha sorry truth hurts. It was his tone, and absolutely fits for him. That's cool, and he was a fantastic player, IMO maybe the fiercest metal player ever. Loved his attack.
But no one, I repeat no one of any significance(or influence to most guitar players) has tried to emulate that tone other than the Dime heads. That's just the way it is.
Doesn't take away from his talent and influence as a player on thousands of guys....his legacy is cemented forever.

That is the sound of my high school days. Never before or since have i heard anyone play guitar like that. His guitar sounds like Satan singing. And that is a beautiful and terrifying thing.

 

[braintheory]

Remember rock n roll is supposed to be fun. Three chords and a cloud of dust AC/DC stuff is fun. Is it rewarding to listen to it musically? I have no clue; I like it because it's juvenile and easy to emulate. Just turn it up and enjoy. That's what VH was. Turn it up and have fun. Prog rock is more rewarding from your standpoint, I'd imagine. I listen to whatever makes me smile. Intro to Balls to the Wall? Turn it up.
Juvenile trash? Haha absolutely. But it's fun.

I’m not talking about rewarding musically in terms of theory or complexity (I really don’t care about that at all), but feeling something. The feeling something part is what I find rewarding in any art form. Not the technical stuff. I actually hate most prog stuff because it often tried to be sophisticated, but doesn’t really most of the time do anything to move the listener. I don’t care how many different sections a prog song has or how many changes it has. I’d rather a song that has at least just one good melody, riff or something than most pretentious prog songs that literally don’t have one musical idea that’s memorable. I have no issues at all with 2 or 3 chords in a song. I mean the verses to “About A Girl” by Nirvana is literally just 2 chords and somehow has so much that it tells me. That alone impresses me infinitely more than anything I’ve heard in EVH and is what art is more about to me (making me feeling something). For me, with just good fun Rock (which I do love as well) my favorites at the top of my head would probably be round and round, welcome to the jungle and maybe some Led Zeppelin song. I actually think the riff in round and round is one of the best all time riffs in anything rock. It’s a riff that to me is like a much better version of some of the VH riffs. Not as interesting rhythmically as what VH does (that’s more their forte), but otherwise more effective imo, especially the way the harmonies resolve each other. That’s partly why it probably makes me feel more

 

[Smash]

Remember rock n roll is supposed to be fun. Three chords and a cloud of dust AC/DC stuff is fun. Is it rewarding to listen to it musically? I have no clue; I like it because it's juvenile and easy to emulate. Just turn it up and enjoy. That's what VH was. Turn it up and have fun. Prog rock is more rewarding from your standpoint, I'd imagine. I listen to whatever makes me smile. Intro to Balls to the Wall? Turn it up.
Juvenile trash? Haha absolutely. But it's fun.

I think AC/DC had some of the best guitar tones out there. But that simple 4/4 or 2/4 unimaginitive drum beat in every song was just so fucking boring.

 

[Greazygeo]

This. Listen to Tribute...sounds like a nice loud boosted Marshall to me. Blizzard tone is a given 'bad' tone...that's been known for years. They also had a very limited budget for that album. Diary was much better IMO.
I saw TNT and a larger club in St Paul way back in 89, after the Intuition album came out. They were killer. Roni LeTekro tone? Pretty simple actually. Just get yourself a vintage Boss Flanger, and set it a certain way. I have one here somewhere; that pedal once dialed in made my C+ Coliseum sound like Roni. Lol. A boosted Marshall with that pedal in front is all you need.

None of the bootlegs and even Tribute sounded like it did standing down front being blasted by his cabs. I had been playing about a year at that time and had been trying to learn some of the Randy stuff on Blizzard. Too bad it was never really captured. Maybe those Altecs don’t record well, hard to say.

 

[braintheory]

I like evhs rhythm playing but I'm with Sam, I think he's lead playing is pretty garbage.

Even from that era I'd rather listen to Mercyful Fate, Maiden, Priest, Accept, Scorpions, Schenker.

EVHs lead stuff just isn't impressive. It's just popular lol

Exactly! Maiden had some really moving guitar solos. My personal favorite has always been the ones in Number of the Beast (my favorite song by them). I guess I’m just saying that I think guitarists should either just stick to their guns of what they do well or strive harder to do everything they do at higher level than they let themselves settle on most of the time. I really think some 5 years olds can write more musically compelling guitar solos than some of the ones out there and the rest of the song is great sometimes, just not the solo lol. Solos shouldn’t be afterthought fillers or like this is my chance to show off

If I just wanna be impressed with chops I’ll listen to Rick Graham, Shawn Lane or Guthrie Govan, but I’ll only listen to them for that purpose really

 

[ClintN667]

Overrated John Mayer definitely. The ceriatone facebook group is constantly having people chasing that tone... also EVH don't care which Era. It just blows my mind here it is so many decades later and forums are still filled with guys chasing that tone.

I agree on the Chris Olivia being underrated. Also Frank G. from Overkill during Years of Decay. That album sounded great. Testament on some albums. I love some of Napalm Death tones from the Suffer the Children/World keeps turning days but nobody ever talks about it. Sepultura early years Beneath The Remains, Arise days. Pelican Drought is one of my favorite tones ever. I would be done tone chasing with that tone. I don't know what it is about it but it's perfect to my ears. Probably just a plexi and a Distortion pedal but damn...