NAD! '82 Marshall 4104 with EV's

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7704A said:
Hmm.... At some point I want to install a better bias system so that I can chuck whatever in there and bias it up, I'll have to try EL34's then. However, so far I've preferred 6550's in online clips. Not that that counts for much.
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They are different. Bigger, cleaner, and more 3-D. They aren't the classic Marshall sound though. They don't crunch as nicely. I had them in a Plexi RI and it was a beast of an amp. Great for Jimi and SRV tones in conjunction with a TS, a fuzz, and a Uni-Vibe. I once turned the whole wooden living room floor of my 1947 FL home into a soundboard with that thing. Set up outside it could be heard MILES away.
 
'57 arrived today, along with another mic I scored for 1¢. Maybe this weekend I can get clips.
 
Instead of going to bed I stayed up and played with the 57 at low volume. So far I'm not impressed. Here are two tracks of the same riff. One is the best I've gotten the 57 to sound on that track, the other is the best I've gotten the PZM to sound. EQ settings are the same across both tracks, the master is a hair higher for the 57, the cab is placed differently in the room since this was supposed to be a quick test, there is no beam blocker on for the 57, and the mic is right up against the grill cloth and centered on the cone.

SM57:


PZM:


I have some other clips, but those will have to wait until after some sleep. At the moment, I'm wondering if the whole time I thought I disliked Marshalls it's actually been the SM57 most people use on 'em. Not sure, more testing needed. I could just be crap at mic'ing with a 57. More comments to come with the rest of the clips.
 
@VonBonfire preliminary results seem to indicate that the 57 doesn't need the beam blocker as much as the PZM like you predicted, but the jury is still out for me.
 
7704A said:
there is no beam blocker on for the 57, and the mic is right up against the grill cloth and centered on the cone.
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You really should back it up an inch or two from the cloth and offset it from speaker dome/dust cap. Get about 3/4's of the way to the edge of the cone and see what happens. This could wind up being an open back cab+Marshall deal cause a 57 sounds absolutely dope on a 4x12 closed back IME whether the amp is a Plexi, 800, or DSL.
 
Alright, more clips from that night. Included are some where I placed the SM57 on the dustcap edge, though it was still up against the grill cloth.

First up, SM57 recordings centered on the cone compared to the clips I already had of the PZM.





Amp settings and the boost were the same across all the clips, except the master volume was a hair louder for the SM57. Mics were centered on the cone, but the PZM had a beam blocker over the speaker. One thing I forgot to mention last time is that the PZM is on the right speaker, and the SM57 is on the left. I'll have to do some recordings of the SM57 on the right and the PZM on the left at some point for completeness, but right now I was just trying to get something sloppy and quick. I haven't noticed there being that big of a difference between the two speakers anyhow.

Edit: Accidentally uploaded a doubled track for the last PZM one, swapped it to mono.
 
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And the other two recordings with the SM57 on the cone edge. Posted separately because of media embedding limits. For these, the master volume was actually the same on the amp as it was for the PZM, best I could tell from my notes and hearing. I've included the PZM clips again for easy comparison.



 
So far, my impression based on the (incomplete) tests is that the SM57 sounds muffled and small, and lacking definition. I find this particularly noticeable with the VH power chords. You can hear some growl in the SM57 clips, but if I listen to the PZM first then the SM57 it's like almost all the growl and definition just got sucked out of the recording. The SM57 also sounds bloated in the mids to me, and the PZM is more neutral but also "sweeter", at least to me. The PZM has some high-end "shhh" going on, but it seems less annoying than what seems like a high-mid "shhhh" in the SM57 clips. Finally, while the PZM has a more defined buzz around some notes, the SM57 seems to be harsher despite the lesser definition.

Naturally none of these tests are conclusive or complete yet, and I'd still like to do some blind tests as well. Current guesses for why the SM57 sounds the way it is are:
1) Mic position needs tweaking, as @VonBonfire suggested.
2) Beam blocker will help add some definition like it did for the PZM.
3) The two speakers in my combo are wildly different, unbeknownst to me.
4) The 57 I have is busted.
5) The 57 and mic position are fine, and this is just what it sounds like.

While I'm hesitant to call (5) yet, I'm definitely noticing elements in my 57 recordings that I don't like in other 57/Marshall recordings, and didn't like even before I got these clips and heard them with my setup. Also, at least one of the 57 clips doesn't outright sound bad to me if I hear it in isolation, but once I hear the PZM it gets outclassed. Maybe if I didn't have the PZM ones to compare I'd be fine(ish?) with the SM57 ones. We'll see what further testing turns up. If any of you geniuses have suggestions for how I might be going about this all wrong, feel free to chime in.

Edit: I'm also using a cheap set of gaming headphones for listening, as it's the best monitoring situation I have at the moment, so that could be part of things. I might be able to listen back on a better system at a later point.
 
Terse clip-less update. Did a little more fiddling, and set up both mics at the same time. The hollow element moves around when I move the mic's mounting boundary around, some sort of resonance effect. Mounting on a book seems to have mostly fixed that. Also, with some position tweaks I can get the 57 to sound similar to the PZM, but not quite. I still favor the PZM. Clips will have to come later, I burned all my time for today experimenting.
 
Update on that update: I listened to the clips I took yesterday, and the clips I did before. I didn't make the SM57 sound better (well, maybe a little), I made the PZM sound worse, at least in my opinion. That's why they sound similar now. I'll post the clips here when I get a chance, but it seems like a swing and a miss.
 
A few quick tests with just one speaker, and it appears the weird artifacts are definitely comb filtering effects (I can see the comb in the spectral analysis). I thought maybe that wasn't happening since it seemed like changing amp settings got rid of it, but it appears that I must've moved it just right too when I made it go away. I have some ideas for dealing with it later. Basically, not putting the amp square to the mic boundary.
 
Some new clips tonight after I noticed a nice big 3-ring binder I could mount the PZM on. Late per usual, so volume is very low. No beam blockers. Any guesses as to which clip is the 57, and which is the PZM?



 
And here are comparisons of the frequency responses for the first two clips:
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And the last two:
1742026520916.png
 
I'll give them a listen later when I can crank it.

My personal feeling is that you will have to get into some volume at some stage to get the best from your amp.
 
Get one of the SE Reflexion mic isolator deals. You are getting reflections into the rear of the 57. Or throw a heavy moving blanket over it.
 
Greazygeo said:
Get one of the SE Reflexion mic isolator deals. You are getting reflections into the rear of the 57. Or throw a heavy moving blanket over it.
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Assuming you're talking about the Audio 3 clips, those are done with the omni PZM. Haven't done anything about reflections yet 'cause I just figured once I have the volume turned up beyond what's acceptable at 1am I wouldn't hear them. I do have a heavy blanket I can try though.
 
7704A said:
Assuming you're talking about the Audio 3 clips, those are done with the omni PZM. Haven't done anything about reflections yet 'cause I just figured once I have the volume turned up beyond what's acceptable at 1am I wouldn't hear them. I do have a heavy blanket I can try though.
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I was listening to your 57 clip. I went thru this myself with my room. More volume should make it worse, did for me. Every amp, mic and speaker sounded super bright. That reflexion isolator fixed it. Huge difference.
 
Greazygeo said:
I was listening to your 57 clip. I went thru this myself with my room. More volume should make it worse, did for me. Every amp, mic and speaker sounded super bright. That reflexion isolator fixed it. Huge difference.
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Ah, I see. I thought you were referring to the most recent clips I posted, which were unlabeled aside from track names. The PZM in that set has string noise from the room. You're not talking about that though, you're talking about reflections off the walls interfering with the direct sound through the back of the SM57. Thanks for clarifying, I'll give things a shot.
 
7704A said:
Ah, I see. I thought you were referring to the most recent clips I posted, which were unlabeled aside from track names. The PZM in that set has string noise from the room. You're not talking about that though, you're talking about reflections off the walls interfering with the direct sound through the back of the SM57. Thanks for clarifying, I'll give things a shot.
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Yes, the 57. I chased my tail for awhile till it dawned on me what the problem was. Tried all kinds of stuff, combinations etc. I’m not going to say it is your issue for sure, if your room is reflective and with parallel walls, it very well could be. The Reflexion deal solved my issue. Tossing a heavy blanket over the amp for a test may give you an idea.

Being a combo don’t do that too long and let the heat from the tubes cause any problems. You could also have relections off the wall behind the combo back into the speakers too. My open back cabs had a bit of that as well.
 
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