NAD! '82 Marshall 4104 with EV's

[VonBonfire]

Sounding pretty dang good but It didn't sound as good with the beam blockers on there IMO.

What kinda mic were you using and what was your placement like in relation to the speaker?

 

[7704A]

Sounding pretty dang good but It didn't sound as good with the beam blockers on there IMO.

Yeah, they attenuate treble a bit, and I didn't compensate. I uploaded another track where I tweaked the treble knob a bit, but not quite enough. That'll have to wait until I do some more thorough demos. Track is below too for convenience.

What kinda mic were you using and what was your placement like in relation to the speaker?

It's a Crown PZM-6R. So an omni-pattern condenser that's super flat with the exception of a smooth 7dB bump around 10kHz. It's the solid line in the plot below. Note that the low-frequency response depends on what sort of surface you mount it on. I think my wall is big enough for it to get below 80Hz, maybe around 50Hz, but I'm not sure on an exact number right now without double checking some math.

Because of the mic being mounted to the wall, it also knocks out one source of comb filters and reduces the "roominess" of the sound a bit.

Rough diagram of mic positioning:

It's not shown too well, but the 4104 is slightly tilted relative to the wall. The wall also isn't that big.

 

[7704A]

Turned things up a bit louder today, and recorded enough attempts of Creeping Death to double the riff. I like the tone I got here. Definitely not the same as the record, but then I wasn't trying to cop the record's tone.

 

[VonBonfire]

Turned things up a bit louder today, and recorded enough attempts of Creeping Death to double the riff. I like the tone I got here. Definitely not the same as the record, but then I wasn't trying to cop the record's tone.

Maybe it's just my ears but I feel like the distance mic'ing is losing some of the presence and bite the amp might offer close mic'ed with a basic 57. I think ideally you could close mic it too, then mix the signals.

 

[7704A]

Maybe it's just my ears but I feel like the distance mic'ing is losing some of the presence and bite the amp might offer close mic'ed with a basic 57. I think ideally you could close mic it too, then mix the signals.

That's certainly possible, especially since the 57 has a presence peak (see below) and the PZM instead has a sibilance peak for crispness. At some point it'll be worth having my 57 mailed out from California for comparison's sake. Up to now I've been focusing on capturing what I hear in the room, so the files I've posted have mostly had more presence and bite than I'm targeting. Definitely need to try the 57 at some point though.

 

[VonBonfire]

That's certainly possible, especially since the 57 has a presence peak (see below) and the PZM instead has a sibilance peak for crispness. At some point it'll be worth having my 57 mailed out from California for comparison's sake. Up to now I've been focusing on capturing what I hear in the room, so the files I've posted have mostly had more presence and bite than I'm targeting. Definitely need to try the 57 at some point though.
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I'd be super interested to hear that since you got the Force 12's in there. I haven't gotten mine to break up even at max volumes, and they are def neutral and pretty smooth at volume. It's a good sound albeit maybe a bit short on mids for leads through the Twin. I been using the 57 in the studio and with a '57 classic bridge pickup it's sounding pretty killer.

 

[7704A]

Noted, I'll be sure to post whatever recordings I get here. I think it'll probably also be a good idea to at some point rent a rehearsal studio for an hour or so just to blast the amp and let it breath.

 

[7704A]

Just had a thought. To your point, @VonBonfire, about lacking presence and bite, it occurs to me that given I'm placing the mic very close to the cab (about 2ft away), it's probably too close to be in the cab's "sweetspot" to catch both speakers with good balance and I'm probably rolling off high end in the same way you would if you placed a 57 far enough off-axis. I'll have to try placing the PZM directly on-axis with one of the speakers and see how that pans out.

 

[7704A]

Alright, yup, that made a difference. Also my amp was more like 1ft from the wall than 2ft. Anyhow, with the mic centered it sounded pretty close to what I was hearing in the room. Moving the mic to be directly on-axis with one of the speakers immediately made it brighter and ice-pickier. I slapped a beam blocker on the speaker and that made it better. Here's the same riff you commented on lacking presence and bite, but double-tracked with the on-axis beam blocker setup.

 

[VonBonfire]

Alright, yup, that made a difference. Also my amp was more like 1ft from the wall than 2ft. Anyhow, with the mic centered it sounded pretty close to what I was hearing in the room. Moving the mic to be directly on-axis with one of the speakers immediately made it brighter and ice-pickier. I slapped a beam blocker on the speaker and that made it better. Here's the same riff you commented on lacking presence and bite, but double-tracked with the on-axis beam blocker setup.

That's sounding pretty damn good to me. Everyone here seems to love double tracking. I know little or nothing about heavy music but it seems to be a thing with metal guys. I don't think it would work great in the blues dept since blues rhythms generally aren't forward in the mix.

Definitely looking forward to hearing it also with a 57 and maybe a mix of the two as well. The 57 sounds great when you hit it with volume. Do a beam blocker vs no beam blocker. JMHO but I don't think you need the beam blockers with a 57. It'll smooth out the highs naturally.

I decided to start micing the 2x12 combos towards the center of the baffle, but about 3/4 of the way towards the edge of the cone. I think there is a little more fullness that way than going left or right side. You got yourself a dang nice amp 7704, thanks for sharing all the clips.

 

[7704A]

That's sounding pretty damn good to me. Everyone here seems to love double tracking. I know little or nothing about heavy music but it seems to be a thing with metal guys. I don't think it would work great in the blues dept since blues rhythms generally aren't forward in the mix.

Definitely looking forward to hearing it also with a 57 and maybe a mix of the two as well. The 57 sounds great when you hit it with volume. Do a beam blocker vs no beam blocker. JMHO but I don't think you need the beam blockers with a 57. It'll smooth out the highs naturally.

I decided to start micing the 2x12 combos towards the center of the baffle, but about 3/4 of the way towards the edge of the cone. I think there is a little more fullness that way than going left or right side. You got yourself a dang nice amp 7704, thanks for sharing all the clips.

I have mono tracks for blocker/no blocker that I'll post later. For the 57, I think I'll place my bet on it needing the blocker more given where it's peak is relative to the beaming frequencies. We'll see though.

And sure thing about the clips, thanks for providing feedback. Along those lines, does the recent one sound a bit fried?

 

[VonBonfire]

For the 57, I think I'll place my bet on it needing the blocker more given where it's peak is relative to the beaming frequencies. We'll see though.

I think you're too worried about using the blocker but I'll wait for the test results. If there are harsh trebles that are bothering you I would check EQ or move the mic off center of the dome (how I set mine anyways). The 57 can take massive treble and bass volumes and seems to stay smooth.

And sure thing about the clips, thanks for providing feedback. Along those lines, does the recent one sound a bit fried?

Listening again, maybe. But I'm not sure what fried means. It seems kinda scooped or sorta hollow like I was trying to chug on my Twin with my setup. EQ settings? What guitar and pickups are you using? No boost I'd assume. Maybe a TS would bring the magic or maybe there is something to the Force 12's? I am getting some similarities with the speakers since I have them in my Twin but I'd need to hear some leads too. I don't remember if you've mentioned that other gear stuff before since it was a couple months before we were able to discuss things. Sorry if I'm just forgetful.

 

[7704A]

I'll wait for the test results.

A test a day keeps the TGP away! Hopefully I can get my 57 shipped out this weekend.

But I'm not sure what fried means.

I think "highly defined and dense sizzle" would be a decent way of defining it.

EQ settings? What guitar and pickups are you using? No boost I'd assume.

If I recall, TMB were all maxed and Presence was 6/10. Pre-Vol was around 6-8/10, Master probably around 0.5-0.75/10. If I recall how the Marshall tone-stack works, it's a little scooped at those settings. E.g., this online tonestack calculator shows a scoop with everything at 10:

Could also be a speaker thing, but I think the Force 12's are like the EVM12S, with a fairly broad mid boost:

The Marshall's scoop looks like it would fall just before the boost, maybe that's causing it? Not sure, would need to do some actual proper tests and/or find a solid datasheet for the Force 12.

I think this is the guitar: https://www.mydukkan.com/aria-mac-std-mdr-metallic-dark-red-elektro-gitar-u-40352 So no-name pickups. At some point I may trying measuring them so that I can quantitatively compare them to other pickups, like the Mighty Mite 1300 I have slated to drop into the bridge on this guitar.

I actually did use a boost, but pure clean boost. It's the Orange Two-Stroke EQ pedal, and I just set the EQ flat and then maxed the level boost out at 12dB. I like it because it leaves the amps I use it with sounding like themselves.

I am getting some similarities with the speakers since I have them in my Twin but I'd need to hear some leads too

I can get a few rusty/sloppy lead covers recorded later this week maybe.

 

[7704A]

And here are the clips I promised.

First clip: PZM is on the wall 1ft away from the amp, centered between the speakers.


Second clip: I moved the PZM several inches to the side so that it was almost directly on-axis with one of the speakers.


Third clip: I put the foam beam blocker (a "mitchell donut") over the speaker that was mic'd.

 

[VonBonfire]

If I recall, TMB were all maxed and Presence was 6/10. Pre-Vol was around 6-8/10, Master probably around 0.5-0.75/10.

Good post, very thorough. I think your the requirement that you keep a lid on the volume, having your master that far down, is possibly the great contributor to your fried tone but reading that you set the master that low, I would've expected much worse. Perhaps your boost helped work the preamp a little better. I wasn't running for the toilet, lol.

I've never seen a big iron amp sound it's best lower than 4 on the dial. With a Marshall, I'd be hoping to see 6 at which point you could probably reduce some of the bass in the EQ. With my RI Plexi 100 watt once I hit six it sounded really great, but pushing beyond that just kinda made it flubbier and more of a mess. With the Twin I like 10 w/o a boost/OD or about 7-8 with a boost/OD or a similar thing also happens. Granted there are no Master controls on them.

As far as the Force 12's, they do seem a bit nasally-broken radio-ish to me when they aren't being worked hard. There was a youtube demo where they had six or eight speakers and the Force 12 sounded terrible compared to all of them but I think he was running a 15 watt amp into them, lol. Certain speakers just do not sound great until they see real power and Force 12's handle a lot more power than the average speaker.

Maybe one of these days when your neighbors aren't around you can let it rip for a minute and see what happens. Or lug it to a jam or rehearsal space. Opening up a killer amp like that is always a good time.

I'll check your clips tomorrow in the afternoon as I already went upstairs for the night since I gotta pour concrete in the morning. Crap tablet speakers will just mislead me. As always, thanks for sharing your experiments and research.

 

[7704A]

I wasn't running for the toilet, lol.

Hah!

Maybe one of these days when your neighbors aren't around you can let it rip for a minute and see what happens. Or lug it to a jam or rehearsal space. Opening up a killer amp like that is always a good time.

Oh yeah, for sure on my to-do list.

As far as the Force 12's, they do seem a bit nasally-broken radio-ish to me when they aren't being worked hard. There was a youtube demo where they had six or eight speakers and the Force 12 sounded terrible compared to all of them but I think he was running a 15 watt amp into them, lol.

I remember seeing that video, this one I think:

It initially made me wary of Force 12's until I got your report on 'em. Once I played the amp I was surprised by how much I actually liked the sound. That's also part of why I want to get my 12S's over here for some head-to-head comparisons. Listening to that video again, the Force seems relatively quiet. I'll have to rip the tracks and norm 'em all for curiosity's sake now. I might be able to reduce the power required to get 'em sounding good (if that's necessary) with the right cabinet design, but I'm not sure yet.

I'll check your clips tomorrow in the afternoon as I already went upstairs for the night since I gotta pour concrete in the morning. Crap tablet speakers will just mislead me. As always, thanks for sharing your experiments and research.

Yeah, whenever, good luck with the concrete. I have some notes on the listening experience, but I'll wait to share 'em so as to minimize expectation bias.

Thanks again for your input!

 

[VonBonfire]

And here are the clips I promised.

First clip: PZM is on the wall 1ft away from the amp, centered between the speakers.


Second clip: I moved the PZM several inches to the side so that it was almost directly on-axis with one of the speakers.


Third clip: I put the foam beam blocker (a "mitchell donut") over the speaker that was mic'd.

Surprisingly, I think the beam blocker clip was probably the better clip of the three but I think that will change when you A) run more volume and B) are close mic'ed with a 57. The 2nd clip on axis with one of the speakers reminded me of that shootout with the Force 12 (same video you posted in your last post). It didn't sound very good to my ears.

It initially made me wary of Force 12's until I got your report on 'em. Once I played the amp I was surprised by how much I actually liked the sound. That's also part of why I want to get my 12S's over here for some head-to-head comparisons. Listening to that video again, the Force seems relatively quiet. I'll have to rip the tracks and norm 'em all for curiosity's sake now. I might be able to reduce the power required to get 'em sounding good (if that's necessary) with the right cabinet design, but I'm not sure yet.

A comparison between the Force 12's and your EVM12s with the same mic/settings would be cool. I'm wondering how close the Force 12's are to the EV's cause people always say EV's are neutral and the Force 12's seem pretty neutral to me compared to JBL's and Greenbacks which are the speakers I have mainly used heavily in the past.

Yeah, whenever, good luck with the concrete. I have some notes on the listening experience, but I'll wait to share 'em so as to minimize expectation bias.

Thanks again for your input!

Too wet this a.m to pour concrete so it's a guitar day for me. I have a good gig this weekend to prepare for so no complaints! Thanks for the discussion and willingness to take some of my critiques without offense. That is such a nice amp you have there it's just enjoyable to see and hear you running some cool tone experiments. I think the best is yet to come. Wish I could help you with cab design but all I've ever done was peel numbers from other amps/cabs that I liked so I'm not much help there.

 

[7704A]

I think the beam blocker clip was probably the better clip of the three

That was my conclusion as well. If you start with the middle one the beam blocker clip can sound a little less brilliant, but if you go from the beam blocker clip to the middle clip it's like getting stabbed in the eardrum.

I think that will change when you A) run more volume

I'm betting it won't, but we'll see how the tests turn out. My reasoning is that the spikiness is due largely to the speaker's geometry, plus maybe the stiffness of the cone helping to preserve the effects of that geometry. Louder wouldn't change the geometry, though maybe it'll overcome the cone's stiffness and reduce the effects of the geometry. Dunno, kinda flying by the seat of my pants here off some basic physics and a 1960's Acoustics textbook I scored for free. I requested my 57 to be mailed out this weekend, so hopefully I can test soon.

Thanks for the discussion and willingness to take some of my critiques without offense.

Thanks for the critiques! I appreciate you sharing your experience and opinions on the matter as I try to figure things out.

 

[7704A]

I didn't get around to posting this earlier, but here is the spectral analysis of the three tracks from above. An interesting note related to your comment, @VonBonfire, is that they all have a scoop around 750Hz.

 

[7704A]

And here are the spectrums for the most recent creeping death clip:

They also look to have a scoop.