Noise/Hum: The Saga Continues

[FourT6and2]

I figured I'd make a new thread with all this information in one spot. Not trying to clutter up the forum though. As some of you know, I've been having noise/hum issues with both of my LP Customs. Both guitars are wired properly. I've checked them many times. I've had multiple techs check them many times. My amps are wired properly as well. The hum is basically unbearable at this point. It's almost as loud as my amp. Sounds like 60 cycle. When I touch the strings, some of the hum goes away, but not all of it. I think this is the 60 cycle vs 120 cycle hum. One of them is not being canceled out.

This YouTube video (not me) demonstrates the same problem I'm having:

Anyway, here's an experiment I just did:

I brought my amp (Peters Hydra) and one of my guitars to Guitar Center today. While there I played my amp as well as another high-gain head (Orange Rockerverb 100). I also used a number of other guitars:

Ernie Ball Music Man JP Majesty
Ernie Ball Music Man JP13
PRS Custom 24 (1)
PRS Custom 24 (2)
Les Paul Custom Black Beauty

Here's what happened:

Mains Wiring
First, the power outlet in the store checked out fine. Grounding was good. Hot/Neutral wired properly. There were no fans or neon lights or anything in the "Platinum" room I was in. I used the same instrument cable, speaker cable, and power cable that I use at home (brought them all with me). No pedals. No effects. Just plugged straight into the amps.

Music Man Guitars
Both Ernie Ball Music Man guitars were 100% deader-than-dead quiet. Zero hum. This is with my hands off the guitar and with my hands on the guitar. Touching any metal part of the guitar (output jack, 1/4" plug on cable, pickups, bridge, screws on backplate, strings, etc.) gave me zero noise. Rubbing my hands on the guitar, itself, gave me zero noise. Beautiful. This was with both amps. Switching through the pickups/coil split there was no hum.

PRS Custom 24 (1)
PRS Custom 24 (1) was less quiet. But still what I would call "Normal." There was a tiny bit of hum. And switching the pickup selector through the various positions (including coil split) changed the tone of the hum, naturally. Touching any metal part of the guitar gave me zero noise. HOWEVER, tapping on the screws and plastic control cavity covers lightly gave me an "electric" "popping" noise. Like a crackle. Rubbing the guitar gave me zero noise. Rubbing the plastic back plates gave me static noise. But I would still call this guitar quiet.

PRS Custom 24 (2)
PRS Custom 24 (2) — same as (1) but different color. Same pickups and everything. In fact serial numbers were very close and were probably built in the same week. This guitar was a little more noisy than the first PRS. Same exact phenomenon when tapping screws on backplate and rubbing guitar. But I'd still call this guitar quiet. But there was a little more hum than the first PRS. Why the difference? Variances in pickup winding (unbalanced coils)? Variations in shielding paint?

Store's LP Custom
Les Paul Custom Black Beauty displayed more hum than the previous guitars. Still not what I would call a noisy guitar. Rubbing the guitar produced zero noise. But rubbing the plastic back plate gave me static/hum. Tapping the screws on the backplate, pickup rings, and jack gave me the same static noise. The guitar had a little more hum. But hum didn't change regardless of whether or not I was touching the strings. But again... I'd still call this guitar quiet.

My LP Custom: 1979 Silverburst
About the same amount of hum as the above Les Paul and PRS (2). But maybe a tiny bit more. Which is MUCH MUCH MUCH QUIETER than what I've been experiencing at home and at other locations over the last few years. HOWEVER, rubbing any part of the guitar's sides or back produced a static crackling noise. Touching any metal part of the guitar (strings, tuners, bridge, tailpiece, pickups, pickup screws, backplate screws, switch ring, output jack, 1/4" plug) produced a static crackling noise. But the loud hum I was experiencing was not really there. There was a faint buzz. But if this was the noise I was experiencing, I'd be perfectly fine with it.

Conclusion

1.
All of these guitars had various amounts of shielding. The Music Man guitars both have active preamps. The pickups are not active, though. So not sure what's going on there. But on Music Man's website, the description for the guitar says, "Graphite acrylic resin coated body cavity and aluminum control cover." So the guitar is shielded. And very well. The PRS guitars have that black conductive paint. And I'm guessing the paint isn't very consistent so PRS (1) was shielded a little better than PRS (2). The Les Pauls, as we know, are not shielded from the factory. I don't know what Black Beauty had going on, but I'm guessing it wasn't shielded. It was brand new and had the stock Gibson humbuckers.

2.
For some reason, my guitar crackles and hums more than the others when you rub the guitar or touch any metal part. The hum isn't constant. But when you tap a screws on the switch cover, for example, you get a crackle/pop

3.
There is a lot of RF/EMF noise where I live. Plugging in an instrument cable to my amp at home (but no guitar) = lots of hum if I'm not touching the metal on the 1/4" plug. When I touch the plug, the hum goes away. But not all of it. Just like if I have a guitar plugged in. At Guitar Center, there was no hum when I did this. Having the guitar cable in my hand (with no guitar plugged in) didn't give me any hum. Even when I wasn't touching the metal of the plug.

So... what now?

 

[tubortski]

Did this happen with amps other than your current one?

 

[FourT6and2]

Did this happen with amps other than your current one?

Yep. Every amp I've owned over the last like... 5 years. I've tried to figure out what the deal is. But now I've become determined to solve this. I'm really frustrated. I've lived in three different cities too: Atlanta, Detroit, and now San Francisco. So unless there's been a huge coincidence and every place I've lived has had crappy mains wiring and lots of RF/EMI floating about... I don't know what's causing this.

I will say the PRS Singlecut I used to own was dead quiet. I could unplug either of my Gibsons and plug in the PRS and the noise would disappear.

So it could be:

Lack of shielding on the Gibsons
Unbalanced pickups failing to cancel EMI/RF noise (but I've swapped pickups a few times and that hasn't helped)

 

[tubortski]

I have also noticed my PRS SC was more quiet than my LP's. Not that I've had a severe problem as yours.

Is it possible that the mains in your home need some filtering, like a nice Furman unit? I've noticed in more populated cities, and dirtier clubs, my rig would sound noisier than at home.

I'm not an expert, just giving some ideas

 

[EVHpickdust]

Have you called an electrician to come check out the wiring in your home and possible test for dirty power?

I can speak from an IT perspective. We have some Cisco routers in an old building and it was time to buy new UPS for that location. The new UPS was the type that had power conditioning on it. The power in that building was so dirty that the UPS had an impossible time conditioning that power and would never come off of battery power to feed its Mains from house power.

 

[FourT6and2]

I have also noticed my PRS SC was more quiet than my LP's. Not that I've had a severe problem as yours.

Is it possible that the mains in your home need some filtering, like a nice Furman unit? I've noticed in more populated cities, and dirtier clubs, my rig would sound noisier than at home.

I'm not an expert, just giving some ideas

Mains definitely need looking at. This place was built in 1908. Landlord tells me the wiring has been updated as best as they could. Noise is a little less in the kitchen where the wiring was redone in the last few years. Outlets test good. I put a meter to them and used an outlet tester. But there is still a lot of RF/EMI floating around I'm sure. I'm on the middle floor of a three-floor town home.

However, like I said above... I've lived in a number of different places over the last few years and this problem has always been present.

Have you called an electrician to come check out the wiring in your home and possible test for dirty power?

I can speak from an IT perspective. We have some Cisco routers in an old building and it was time to buy new UPS for that location. The new UPS was the type that had power conditioning on it. The power in that building was so dirty that the UPS had an impossible time conditioning that power and would never come off of battery power to feed its Mains from house power.

I called the landlord when I discovered a number of outlets were not grounded. And some were wired in reverse, with the neutral/hot flipped. He came and fixed the reverse-wired jacks. But he basically said he couldn't do anything about the ungrounded sockets. That would require tearing down the walls and running new wire. Which he's not going to do obviously. So he installed some GFCI sockets for safety at least. But they won't do anything for noise/hum in audio equipment.

But... I've been using the grounded outlet in the kitchen that was installed during a remodel. Noise is still there, though a little less.

I've thought about trying a Furman P-1800 PFR or AR. But they are expensive. And I've read from many people that they are just glorified surge protection strips and don't actually solve any problems. The voltage in the walls is constant. Doesn't fluctuate. So I don't need something to fix that. I need something to filter the mains power. Not sure which Furman unit does that. Someone recommended the AR-15. But they don't make 'em anymore. And I'm not shelling out money for something I can't return if it doesn't do anything to help.

 

[EVHpickdust]

The voltage in the walls is constant. Doesn't fluctuate. So I don't need something to fix that.

Constant voltage on the line doesn't indicate "clean" power. Line voltage to our UPS was right at 122VAC, the UPS never went off battery.

I need something to filter the mains power. Not sure which Furman unit does that. Someone recommended the AR-15. But they don't make 'em anymore. And I'm not shelling out money for something I can't return if it doesn't do anything to help.

You can buy a Furman from either Sweetwater or Guitar Center (they have 28 different ones in stock) if it doesn't work, take it back.

 

[Greazygeo]

You have checked to see that your guitar has a bridge ground right? A lot of Gibsons did not have them.

 

[Steinmetzify]

This entire thing is weird. The only time I get anything like that is when I use unpotted pickups, and you said you've switched them out over the years, so I can probably assume they're all potted?

 

[FourT6and2]

The voltage in the walls is constant. Doesn't fluctuate. So I don't need something to fix that.

Constant voltage on the line doesn't indicate "clean" power. Line voltage to our UPS was right at 122VAC, the UPS never went off battery.

I didn't mean to imply non-fluctating line voltage = clean power. Only that my mains power does not fluctuate. It is a constant 124 volts. And therefore do not need something to feed my amp a constant voltage. That is all. But let's pretend this is the answer. That it's all about the mains power. Why would my PRS be dead quiet and both of my Gibsons noisy? Would bad mains power affect everything? And with nothing plugged into the amp, the amp is quiet. Doesn't that mean the amp is not the problem, including the mains? Or do mains only come into play once a guitar is plugged in?

You can buy a Furman from either Sweetwater or Guitar Center (they have 28 different ones in stock) if it doesn't work, take it back.

Yep, like I said in my previous post I've narrowed it down to the P-1800 AR and PFR or the AR-15. Those three units are the only ones that do what I potentially need according to many people and the folks at Furman. However I'm not convinced they will do anything just yet. Many people who have bought one of them have reported that they did nothing to help—only lightened their wallets. So I will wait until after I try shielding my guitar first.

You have checked to see that your guitar has a bridge ground right? A lot of Gibsons did not have them.

Yup. Even if it didn't... My PRS, the two PRS guitars in the store, and both Music Man guitars were all basically noise-free, EVEN WHEN I WASN'T TOUCHING THE STRINGS. This means even if they didn't have a bridge ground, they'd still be quiet. And my guitars would still be noisy.

This entire thing is weird. The only time I get anything like that is when I use unpotted pickups, and you said you've switched them out over the years, so I can probably assume they're all potted?

Yup. Although unpotted pickups usually = microphonics, not 60/120 cycle hum.

 

[Greazygeo]

Do you have other guitars? Do they hum at your place? With your amp turned on in play mode, with no instrument plugged in to the amp, does the amp hum on its own?

 

[grooveHT]

Are there dimmer switches in the house? Sometimes those can add a bunch of noise.

 

[FourT6and2]

Do you have other guitars? Do they hum at your place? With your amp turned on in play mode, with no instrument plugged in to the amp, does the amp hum on its own?

I feel like I'm going in circles here. No, I currently only have the two LPs. But I've had other guitars in the past, alongside my LPs, and they were quiet while my LPs were noisy.

And that doesn't matter. I tested my guitar alongside 5 others at Guitar Center, like I said in my OP. And my guitar was still noisier than the others.

With nothing plugged into my amps, the amps are quiet. Even with the gain and masters maxed out.

Are there dimmer switches in the house? Sometimes those can add a bunch of noise.

There are no dimmers in the house.

 

[Ratou]

Was the hum/noise identical with the different pickups you swaped in? Did you use different wiring configurations depending on the pickup? Did ANY change you made to that guitar over the years alter (not diminish or cancel but just changed) the nature of the hum?

 

[Greazygeo]

Do you have other guitars? Do they hum at your place? With your amp turned on in play mode, with no instrument plugged in to the amp, does the amp hum on its own?

I feel like I'm going in circles here. No, I currently only have the two LPs. But I've had other guitars in the past, alongside my LPs, and they were quiet while my LPs were noisy.

And that doesn't matter. I tested my guitar alongside 5 others at Guitar Center, like I said in my OP. And my guitar was still noisier than the others.

With nothing plugged into my amps, the amps are quiet. Even with the gain and masters maxed out.

you don't have a friend with a guitar you can borrow?

Since the amp does not hum on its own, it's either the cable or the guitars. Nothing in the wiring of the house is causing it.

If it's both your LP's doing it the same amount and acting the same, something in the guitars are not wired correctly. How did you check for your bridge grounds? Either you don't have them, your output jacks are wired backwards, or there is a ground not hooked up somewhere or the pickups are faulty.

If you have a bunch of that stock braided shielded wire runnin from your switch to control cavity, make sure it is not contacting the underside of your pickups. Sometimes the pole piece screws stick down kinda far.

What kind of pickups do you have in there?

Just trying to help out if I can.....no need to get pissy with me.

 

[FourT6and2]

Was the hum/noise identical with the different pickups you swaped in?

Yes.

Did you use different wiring configurations depending on the pickup?

There are really only two wiring configurations to try in a LP: Modern and '50s. I've tried them both. I could try the other variations like independent volume and treble bleed and all that. But I have no use for those. But yes, I tried wiring it different ways.

Did ANY change you made to that guitar over the years alter (not diminish or cancel but just changed) the nature of the hum?

Not that I remember.

Do you have other guitars? Do they hum at your place? With your amp turned on in play mode, with no instrument plugged in to the amp, does the amp hum on its own?

I feel like I'm going in circles here. No, I currently only have the two LPs. But I've had other guitars in the past, alongside my LPs, and they were quiet while my LPs were noisy.

And that doesn't matter. I tested my guitar alongside 5 others at Guitar Center, like I said in my OP. And my guitar was still noisier than the others.

With nothing plugged into my amps, the amps are quiet. Even with the gain and masters maxed out.

you don't have a friend with a guitar you can borrow?

Nope. I don't know anybody else that plays guitar. But there is someone on here who said they might be able to drop by sometime and bring their guitars. But I feel like I did that test already at Guitar Center, no? But I guess it would make a difference because it would be in my building.

Since the amp does not hum on its own, it's either the cable or the guitars. Nothing in the wiring of the house is causing it.

I have like 10 different cables. None of them make a difference. And the Ernie Ball Music Man Guitars were dead quiet through the same cable I tend to use...

If it's both your LP's doing it the same amount and acting the same, something in the guitars are not wired correctly. How did you check for your bridge grounds? Either you don't have them, your output jacks are wired backwards, or there is a ground not hooked up somewhere or the pickups are faulty.

When I touch the strings, some of the hum goes away. That should tell me that the string are grounded to the circuit. But I also checked for continuity between strings, bridge, tailpiece, tuners, and ground with a multimeter. And it checks out. On both guitars. I will post some photos of my wiring.

If you have a bunch of that stock braided shielded wire runnin from your switch to control cavity, make sure it is not contacting the underside of your pickups. Sometimes the pole piece screws stick down kinda far.

This is something I have not checked. Thanks! I will look into it. But the braid can contact the pickup legs and case, right? Since those are ground.

What kind of pickups do you have in there?

Currently, BKP Nailbombs in one guitar and Black Dogs in the other.

Just trying to help out if I can.....no need to get pissy with me.

No worries, I'm just frustrated. Sorry!

Here's some photos:

Here's both guitars:

Here's what the stock wiring looked like:

Here's the shoddy wiring a tech did when he installed the Duncan JB.

RS Kit I used a while back:

With JB installed:

New Wiring in both guitars with RS Modern stuff. Both output jacks are wired the same so I only took a photo of one.

I've confirmed many times that the jack is wired properly. Tip = hot. Sleeve = Ground/Neutral.

 

[Ratou]

IMO the problem is in the guitar. I also had noise with the BKP Nailbomb in one of my guitars, the BKPs are very transparent and sensitive so they can capture more interferences than other pickups (the Nailbomb is also high output which inccreases possible noise). I rewired it at least 5 times and like you tested everything in my signal chain and room where my amp is. I managed to improve the noise by cleaning up the wiring and moving some electronic devices but these pickups are still much sensitive than my EMGs (active) for example that always dead quiet. Just changing my position on my chair while playing changes the hum drasticly, I just stopped going crazy about it and overanalyzing and it doesn't bug me anymore.

I'm not saying you dont have a problem (I think you do since touching the bridge/strings changes the hum) but also consider that when you where in GC, the environment was probably much more noisy than at home and that some noises might not be as apparent, while at home it's very easy to hear every little sound.

What about the pots, have you ever changed them? The techs you gave the guitar to probably checked them but you never know. Maybe try wiring one pickup straight to the jack to see If it changes anything (if it doesn't it'll rule out any wiring/pot issues).

What confuses me is that both your LPs have the same hum issue but not your other guitar you tried (PRS) at home. What do these two guitars have in common compared to the other nes you tried that where silent?

 

[FourT6and2]

IMO the problem is in the guitar. I also had noise with the BKP Nailbomb in one of my guitars, the BKPs are very transparent and sensitive so they can capture more interferences than other pickups (the Nailbomb is also high output which inccreases possible noise). I rewired it at least 5 times and like you tested everything in my signal chain and room where my amp is. I managed to improve the noise by cleaning up the wiring and moving some electronic devices but these pickups are still much sensitive than my EMGs (active) for example that always dead quiet. Just changing my position on my chair while playing changes the hum drasticly, I just stopped going crazy about it and overanalyzing and it doesn't bug me anymore.

It was suggested that unbalanced pickups could add to the problem by not canceling as much noise as fully balanced pickups. That, if they are asymmetrically wound they therefore do not cancel hum like humbuckers should.

I'm not saying you dont have a problem (I think you do since touching the bridge/strings changes the hum) but also consider that when you where in GC, the environment was probably much more noisy than at home and that some noises might not be as apparent, while at home it's very easy to hear every little sound.

Except at GC, I was in the sound-proof "Platinum" room. And there was LESS hum than at home. At home the hum is much louder. It's not a little hum in the background. The hum is almost as loud as the amp. Listen to the video I posted. It's like that.

What about the pots, have you ever changed them?

I've rewired both guitars (with all new pots/switches/jacks, numerous times.

The techs you gave the guitar to probably checked them but you never know. Maybe try wiring one pickup straight to the jack to see If it changes anything (if it doesn't it'll rule out any wiring/pot issues).

I will try that, thanks.

What confuses me is that both your LPs have the same hum issue but not your other guitar you tried (PRS) at home. What do these two guitars have in common compared to the other nes you tried that where silent?

As far as I can tell, the PRS had that black conductive shielding paint and used regular single-conductor wire. The LPs have no shielding and use braided two-conductor wire. However in the store, the brand new, stock LP Custom I tried had less hum than my guitar. And it didn't have shielding and used braided wire just like mine. So that just leaves the pickups... However, I've tried other pickups besides Bareknuckle. I've tried three different Duncan JBs too. Same problem.

 

[harddriver]

I suspect your seeing dirty ACV and additional EMF RFI from nasty wiring in your complex. My brothers house is a wiring nightmare romex wires crisscrossing each other in the floor joist's creating an environment for noise.

Every amp he's owned is a lot noisier and hissy at his house than at mine, high gain amps( more than 2 gain stages) especially amplify this noise if not running DC heaters or elevated AC heaters.

I jokingly refer to his house as the Faraday cage! An amp can be dead quiet at my house and hissy at his, same guitar same amps.

The Joys of Alternating Current I am afraid, a furman power regulator may help but it won't do anything if your apartment complex is still using hot and neutral wiring with no ground lugs in the circuit. Actual the older neutral hot wiring acts kind of like a ground lift sometime eliminating ground loops, but having everything fully grounded is best.

The braiding on your LP's that you show is fully shielded the only thing you could do is actually build a Faraday Cage by wrapping your pot cavity with copper foil, it might be worth a try if you've gone to these lengths. I think Gibson used special shielding paint in the pot cavities for extra shielding if I'm not mistaken

 

[Greazygeo]

In this pic where does that black wire go?

I would try this….grab a piece of wire, maybe a foot or two long and solder a set of alligator clips on both ends. Clip one of the ends on one of your strings between the bridge and tailpiece. Take the other end and clip it inside the control cavity to a ground. One of those braided wire shields would work fine, but anything in there would work.

In those pics I'm just not seeing a bridge ground anywhere. See if that changes anything.