Powering a Kemper - What are you using?

[Monkey Man]

The KAB isn't too expensive so maybe I should start with that and see how it goes. I have always used two 4x12 cabs with my heads so using a single 1x12 KAB is going to be very odd for me. Can you even use two KABS with the Kemper Non Powered Rack?

Why not place 4 x Kemper Kones in a cab of your choice? You could maybe sacrifice one of your two 4 x 12s for the experiment.

Oh, and yeah, you can use two Kabs "chained" (the I/O is on the back IIRC). Using two Kabs, combined with the dispersion-control parameter, you may well get a pretty-big sound.

It may be cheaper to go the Kones 'though and pop 'em into an existing cab.

Thank you my friend. I very much appreciate your help and feedback. Very kind of you!

Made my day, brother. Thank you!

 

[RockyStar]

Why not place 4 x Kemper Kones in a cab of your choice? You could maybe sacrifice one of your two 4 x 12s for the experiment.

Oh, and yeah, you can use two Kabs "chained" (the I/O is on the back IIRC). Using two Kabs, combined with the dispersion-control parameter, you may well get a pretty-big sound.

It may be cheaper to go the Kones 'though and pop 'em into an existing cab.

Made my day, brother. Thank you!

It's the simple things in life that often times bring the greatest value.

Side Note: So I read through 88 pages on the Kemper thread...lol. I am dizzy, forgot half of what I read and confused on the other half...lol. Here are some of my thoughts and maybe you can help me through them.

1) It sounds like the Kemper Kab solves a lot of problems people have with the Kemper in the room.

2) It also sounds like the Kab has its issues and struggles most with the heavy sounds...which is 99% of all I care about. I am also concerned with it being a 1x12 and also the Kab quality to hold up on modern high gain and low end with it being made of MDF.

3) I typically use 2 4x12 cabinets so going to 1 1x12 concerns me.

4) That leads me to powering the unit and using something like the Duncan Power Stage or Matrix. My concern is if I use what I already have (Fryette Power Station or Boss Waza TAE) I am getting coloration and that may be a problem (or may not) but the KAB could still solve a lot of that.

5) A top notch 4x12 (mentally) seems comforting But fetching a proper 4x12 and purchasing 4 Kones will be a small fortune in addition to potentially having to get a Power Amp.

6) I heard talk of a powered Kab but didn't catch a timeframe or if it is even out yet? Am I correct in assuming the powered Kab will be able to power my unpowered Kemper Rack unit and Footswitch? If so, that seems like it may be the logical first step to take? I am just concerned (again) on Kab quality and ability to really deliver Heavy, Modern High Gain tones.

Worst case scenario, I could see myself having to drop another couple grand to get everything up and running best. I am hoping that isn't the case.

Now on to read the other thread I was given the link to.

 

[crankyrayhanky]

Thanks for the info and help. I really appreciate it. Regarding the Kemper, I think would keep that rig isolated to the cluster of whatever the parts are to make it a rig. I have the non powered rack unit and foot controller as I read up and heard the frustrations with the powered version. I have the Fryette Power Station and the Boss Waza Tube Amp Expander I was thinking I could use. I was hoping to use one of those. If I have to get another power source and a KAB or KONES and fill an empty can etc then my costs are jumping up. That is why the powering product I have and my various 4x12's were what my initial thought was. The KAB isn't too expensive so maybe I should start with that and see how it goes. I have always used two 4x12 cabs with my heads so using a single 1x12 KAB is going to be very odd for me. Can you even use two KABS with the Kemper Non Powered Rack?

Anyway, I will read up on these links you guys shared and learn more and hopefully get this sorted. Again, I really appreciate the help so far. Thank you!

Yes. It has several output options, you can easily take a stereo out and go into a stereo power amp and rock away. The gear you have will work well....but if you can integrate a Kab into your live setup it is really advised.

The tricky part for me is the powered Kemper is only mono power out- I'm likely to get a modification to allow a 2nd Kab for stereo

 

[flimz]

My experience is not directly Kemper related, but I moved from 100 watt tube heads thru 4x12's to a digital platform (Helix).

At first I went the FRFR route. A very nice Xitone powered 12". It was a bit of a shock, sonically. Not so much the using of IR's etc, but the physical soundscape difference btw a 4x12 and a 1x12.

Eventually I settled on a SD Powerstage 170 into a 4x12 (detuned with only 2 speakers). I have dialed in my Helix (stomp) side by side with my Bogner rig, and I am very happy with the tones. Honestly, often I prefer the HX tones.

The only advice I can offer, is that most people agree that using a real guitar cab with their modelers is the best way to go...Especially with the heavy tones. Finding the right power solution (ss power amp / tube head fx return) is personal preference. My current rig is light, quick to setup/tear down, and sounds awesome!

 

[bubucci]

600W kemper poweramp sounds relatively good when played alone but in band setting it is bad. Any mediocre 50W tube amp sound better and cut thru much better. Class D amps can be loud but it is not pleasing sound and take You 30 years back to shitty transistor amp.
I feel little sorry for people who can't hear differences between amp and profiler. Audience can't tell difference between my Marshall DSL and Bogner but I do and it directly affect my performance and I enjoy live playing much more when I have great stage sound.

 

[RockyStar]

Yes. It has several output options, you can easily take a stereo out and go into a stereo power amp and rock away. The gear you have will work well....but if you can integrate a Kab into your live setup it is really advised.

The tricky part for me is the powered Kemper is only mono power out- I'm likely to get a modification to allow a 2nd Kab for stereo

It appears that the Kab is a must. My concern is it only being a 1x12 and the build quality. From what I have read, the high gain, modern heavy tones are not its strong point. I also heard about the materials and am a bit nervous. Additionally, it sounds like a powered version is available or about to be available so unless I am mistaken, it could save me from having to use or get another power amp.

 

[RockyStar]

My experience is not directly Kemper related, but I moved from 100 watt tube heads thru 4x12's to a digital platform (Helix).

At first I went the FRFR route. A very nice Xitone powered 12". It was a bit of a shock, sonically. Not so much the using of IR's etc, but the physical soundscape difference btw a 4x12 and a 1x12.

Eventually I settled on a SD Powerstage 170 into a 4x12 (detuned with only 2 speakers). I have dialed in my Helix (stomp) side by side with my Bogner rig, and I am very happy with the tones. Honestly, often I prefer the HX tones.

The only advice I can offer, is that most people agree that using a real guitar cab with their modelers is the best way to go...Especially with the heavy tones. Finding the right power solution (ss power amp / tube head fx return) is personal preference. My current rig is light, quick to setup/tear down, and sounds awesome!

Where I struggle most is going from typically 2 4x12 cabs down to a 1x12. I can't wrap my head around that...lol. If I were to get the Kones from Kemper and install them I am looking at two empty 4x12 cabs and 8 Kones. That is a bit of cash. and I may still need to go with a different power amp on top of it. That is a lot of coin when it is all said and done for a modeling rig IMO. Maybe the Kab (1x12) will be fine as it is basically a monitor and my concerns aren't as necessary as I am thinking. I will plug in with what I have next chance I get and see what the hell I have gotten myself into...

 

[mrbush]

Just throwing my two cents in here as a former powered Kemper owner. I used the unit in a band setting exclusively with a Mesa 4x12 as well as a Mesa 2x12 at home. It sounded great, but I was always fiddling and tweaking it. Sometimes I felt it was hard to get a really "loud" feeling from it.

It wasn't until I sold it and went back to a 100 watt 6L6 amp that I noticed how much low end "thump" I had been missing. The integrated power amp just really doesn't push air in the way a tube power amp does. I've heard good things about Matrix power amps, but I've also heard that the Duncan power stage units don't push air like this. I haven't looked into the Kemper Kabs at all, but since they aren't powered I would suggest being really particular about which power amp you go with before being concerned about a new cab. I bet a good tube power amp would be great, though would obviously colour the sound to a certain extent.

 

[bubucci]

What is purpose of Kemper if You are using tube poweramp and 4x12 then ? Those and a mics make basics of Your sound. And sometimes less is more if You prefer one superb sound instead 20 mediocre.

 

[mrbush]

What is purpose of Kemper if You are using tube poweramp and 4x12 then ? Those and a mics make basics of Your sound. And sometimes less is more if You prefer one superb sound instead 20 mediocre.

I didn't use a tube power amp myself, but personally I found the Kemper had lots of conveniences if you're looking for something that can give lots of different sounds in a live setting, be compact and easy to transport as well as good for low volume practicing and home recording. I rarely play live in a setting that is good enough for going DI and never, ever would want to play without a cab, so it was basically a glorified amp head/effects unit rolled into one, lightweight rack. Ultimately, I sold it as if found I was constantly tweaking/trying new profiles and couldn't get it where I wanted it, but thats all personal preference.

 

[cardinal]

It's with an AFXIII and I've only had about an hour with it so far, but I went into a 4x12 using a Crest CA-9 power amp (from my bass rig). It sure was moving some air.

Some of these old school PA amps have some serious power and what bassists call "slam." So there are other options out there than little class D things or tube power amps (fwiw I preferred the CA-9 to a Fryette 2:90:2 when I was trying amps for the bass rig).

 

[Monkey Man]

Here are some of my thoughts and maybe you can help me through them.

I'll do my best, brother.

1) It sounds like the Kemper Kab solves a lot of problems people have with the Kemper in the room.

Yup. That's what made me recommend it to you initially; the pant-flappin' factor.

2) It also sounds like the Kab has its issues and struggles most with the heavy sounds...which is 99% of all I care about. I am also concerned with it being a 1x12 and also the Kab quality to hold up on modern high gain and low end with it being made of MDF.

It's a robust Celestion driver developed in conjunction with Kemper. No reason to doubt it's utility in that regard.

The MDF choice is 'cause it's consistent and won't provide varying resonances from cabinet to cabinet off-the-shelf.

3) I typically use 2 4x12 cabinets so going to 1 1x12 concerns me.

This is why I suggested replacing the drivers in one of your 4x12's, mate.

4) That leads me to powering the unit and using something like the Duncan Power Stage or Matrix. My concern is if I use what I already have (Fryette Power Station or Boss Waza TAE) I am getting coloration and that may be a problem (or may not) but the KAB could still solve a lot of that.

The Kemper philosophy is to amplify as cleanly and uncoloured as possible. The tube goodness in the Profiled signal chain will thereby be transmitted faithfully.

5) A top notch 4x12 (mentally) seems comforting But fetching a proper 4x12 and purchasing 4 Kones will be a small fortune in addition to potentially having to get a Power Amp.

Four Kones should be less than or around a grand IIRC. If you use one of your 4x12 cabs then you should be good-to-go.

6) I heard talk of a powered Kab but didn't catch a timeframe or if it is even out yet?

Not out yet. Timeframe unknown.

Am I correct in assuming the powered Kab will be able to power my unpowered Kemper Rack unit and Footswitch?

No, it'll simply deal with whatever line-level signal you sent to it via the Kemper's Monitor Output.

The fact that the Remote is powered by the Kemper is still convenient - just one A/C socket covers both of them.

Worst case scenario, I could see myself having to drop another couple grand to get everything up and running best. I am hoping that isn't the case.

As I said, it should be less than or around a grand for the Kones. I'd seriously look into that.

HTH, mate.

 

[RockyStar]

It's with an AFXIII and I've only had about an hour with it so far, but I went into a 4x12 using a Crest CA-9 power amp (from my bass rig). It sure was moving some air.

Some of these old school PA amps have some serious power and what bassists call "slam." So there are other options out there than little class D things or tube power amps (fwiw I preferred the CA-9 to a Fryette 2:90:2 when I was trying amps for the bass rig).

I will check it out. thanks for the feedback.

 

[RockyStar]

I'll do my best, brother.


Yup. That's what made me recommend it to you initially; the pant-flappin' factor.


It's a robust Celestion driver developed in conjunction with Kemper. No reason to doubt it's utility in that regard.

The MDF choice is 'cause it's consistent and won't provide varying resonances from cabinet to cabinet off-the-shelf.


This is why I suggested replacing the drivers in one of your 4x12's, mate.


The Kemper philosophy is to amplify as cleanly and uncoloured as possible. The tube goodness in the Profiled signal chain will thereby be transmitted faithfully.


Four Kones should be less than or around a grand IIRC. If you use one of your 4x12 cabs then you should be good-to-go.


Not out yet. Timeframe unknown.


No, it'll simply deal with whatever line-level signal you sent to it via the Kemper's Monitor Output.

The fact that the Remote is powered by the Kemper is still convenient - just one A/C socket covers both of them.


As I said, it should be less than or around a grand for the Kones. I'd seriously look into that.

HTH, mate.

I wouldn't sacrifice a cab I already have. I use them with my other amps etc so robbing Peter to pay Paul makes no sense. I would need a 4x12 empty and 4 Kones or that times 2

Looks like I will need a pristine clean power amp as it sounds like the Fryette and the Boss will most likely color things which is problematic from what you say and I read.....boy did I read...lol. I wonder if I could run the 1x12 and a 4x12 at the same time? Have the 4x12 behind me and the 1x12 to act like a wedge/monitor?

Anyway, worst case scenario.....2 empty 4x12 cabs, 8 Kones, and a power amp. We will hold off talking profile purchases for now...lol. Sounds like a small fortune for it all.

Best case scenario, grab the 1x12 and a power amp and be done.

 

[Monkey Man]

I wonder if I could run the 1x12 and a 4x12 at the same time? Have the 4x12 behind me and the 1x12 to act like a wedge/monitor?

I don't see why not, man.

Anyway, worst case scenario.....2 empty 4x12 cabs, 8 Kones, and a power amp. We will hold off talking profile purchases for now...lol. Sounds like a small fortune for it all.

You may be able to get away with freebies from the Rig Exchange (over 17000 there now) and the packs built into Rig Manager - Kemper selects what it feels are great Profiles from well-known Profilers.

If not, just listen carefully to demos and buy frugally. Many vendors are dirt-cheap.

Best case scenario, grab the 1x12 and a power amp and be done.

Maybe check how many dB SPL that cab is. You never know...

 

[RockyStar]

I don't see why not, man.


You may be able to get away with freebies from the Rig Exchange (over 17000 there now) and the packs built into Rig Manager - Kemper selects what it feels are great Profiles from well-known Profilers.

If not, just listen carefully to demos and buy frugally. Many vendors are dirt-cheap.


Maybe check how many dB SPL that cab is. You never know...

Thank you my friend. Very much appreciate all your help.

Regarding profiles, I will have to look and see what the Rig Exchange and Rig Manager has available. Maybe some cool stuff is that I will like. On the heavy side, I heard a video yesterday of an Ola profile that was awesome. Killertone had a few nice ones on a video as did Fortin. Not a Fortin fan for various reasons but the sounds were what I gravitate to.

 

[harddriver]

I read that if you are driving a single 4x12 cabinet using either AXE or kemper with a Matrix power amp you will get the maximum low end excursion and punch if you bridge the amp for maximum wattage and bypass the cabinet emulations.

 

[Monkey Man]

Bypassing cabinet emulation is the recommended M.O. with any conventional cabinet, brother; only FRFR enclosures require emulation.

Kemper Kones and Kabinets are a unique category 'cause they can function as FRFR as well as conventional cabinets with a dedicated layer of driver emulation covering all the usual vintage and popular speaker models.

 

[RockyStar]

Call me crazy but after chewing on all this info for a bit and reading a ton of stuff like I have and couple that with my personal experience with gear etc. I have concluded I am in conflict. The Kemper philosophy is its own unique thing in and of itself. If a person can fully buy into the Kemper philosophy and fully jump in then there is a VERY HIGH chance that they will achieve user satisfaction in all the various ways a Kemper can be used. The trouble is forgetting all you know that works apart from anything Kemper and discarding that info and buying in. I am having a hard time doing that on various levels and I know I am not alone. "The Kemper is awesome for recording" or " The FOH tones I get with my Kemper are some of the best tones I have ever had in my life" are very common comments. Where things lack is in the room for most people and that is where the mind bend comes into play most significantly (In My Opinion).

Take a high gain, modern guitar player and build them a guitar rig and 99.9% of us won't be grabbing a solid state amp, a 1x12 cabinet etc as a foundation. For me, I really feel that the attempted blending of these two worlds is where people are having troubles...Or at least troubles in the room with the Kemper not sounding/responding like a tube amp. This is the sticking point of my troubles for sure.

I am going to tear into it this weekend and try some of my own things I am chewing on with the Kemper and will report back as I sort things out or discover something just doesn't work. I am hoping my experiences in my journey can be of help to others. Other folks have sure been kind in trying to help me and they indeed have. At first when I was diving into things I wasn't sure it would be for me. I am still not 100% sure it will be but without a change of mindset and or philosophy I am pretty confident it wouldn't be. Now I am optimistic so that is cool. I do think the Kab and or the Kone is a key ingredient. I will initially start off using my Fryette Power Station and regular 4x12 cabs and switch around cabs to see how things interact. I will order the Kemper Kab and see how that shifts things once I have tried my cabs and have a better understanding and see hands on experience with the Kemper. Worst case, the Kab is a nice home playing puzzle piece for practicing and a monitor for live. I am very curious on the power amp paths and will tackle those last if the options I presently have don't suffice. It will be interesting to see what I discover and I will keep this going along the way. Others are welcome to continue leaving info/feedback/tips/tricks/experiences as well so this can help folks.

Thanks again to all those who helped me out on info. I sincerely appreciate it...thank you.

 

[Monkey Man]

You're a class act, brother; my pleasure.