RockyStar
Well-known member
Likewise my dear friend. I value and appreciate you.You're a class act, brother; my pleasure.
C
Clig Herdunkachuk
Well-known member
Several years ago, decided to check out modeling. I tried a Kemper, was not for me personally. This is not an anti-Kemper rant, so please bear with me.
Got an Axe FX III and a XiTone powered 1x12. There was clearly a difference from a tube amp and 4x12. The Axe FX has a plethora of connection including 4 dedicated stereo inputs/outputs. This is also not an Axe FX pitch...
I decided to try an experiment. I also have a JVM 410 HJS, a 1960 AHW 4x12, and a 1960 TV 4x12. I put the XiTone on AFX Output 1 and the JVM FX Loop Return to AFX Output 4. I integrated AFX Output 3 to the front of the JVM and JVM FX Loop Send to AFX Input 4. So a 4CM setup and an FRFR all in a single rig.
With this I could mix and match any of the components. The preset determines how everything gets stitched together. Changing between an FRFR preset and the JVM was a simple as selecting a preset on my foot controller. I can do things like use an Axe FX model and send it to the JVM FX Return (Which enters the amp circuit after the pre-amp and before power amp stages). Or I can send to the front of the JVM (Preamp), pick up the signal from the FX send, then output it to the XiTone.
I can also insert FX into the preset at any point in the chain.
My goal was to be able to quickly and easily flip between different configurations to do A/B testing without re-wiring and jumping through hoops.
Have tried all the different configurations and the 1x12 does not hold a candle to the 4x12 setup (No surprise there).
The Axe FX amp models run into the JVM output stage have the pant flapping that one would expect when using a tube amp. It is not 100% the same, but it feels right.
Using the JVM preamp and output stage with Axe FX effects feels glorious.
The JVM preamp through the XiTone has the same lack of "chug" that is commonly described with modelers.
Straight up Axe FX and XiTone did not have the feel of the tube amp.
This is where I got to though: all of this is really just me geeking out for myself. Once you mic a tube amp and record it or send it to a PA, the recording/audience/sound engineer are getting what the Kemper or Axe is putting out: a mic capture of a incredibly small part of the larger sonic field that is being produced by the amp. That was the thing that helped me personally to get over the philosophical "hump".
Once I found peace with that, quickly recognized that the tone coming from the Axe FX was the tone that would be recorded or heard by a live audience. While room ambience is still a factor as is the impact of volume, but sound checks got easier and live tone became more consistent.
At home I kept this integrated setup. If recording I will using modeling and IRs with monitoring through a XiTone or studio speakers. If playing for my own enjoyment, it is JVM all the way.
Got an Axe FX III and a XiTone powered 1x12. There was clearly a difference from a tube amp and 4x12. The Axe FX has a plethora of connection including 4 dedicated stereo inputs/outputs. This is also not an Axe FX pitch...
I decided to try an experiment. I also have a JVM 410 HJS, a 1960 AHW 4x12, and a 1960 TV 4x12. I put the XiTone on AFX Output 1 and the JVM FX Loop Return to AFX Output 4. I integrated AFX Output 3 to the front of the JVM and JVM FX Loop Send to AFX Input 4. So a 4CM setup and an FRFR all in a single rig.
With this I could mix and match any of the components. The preset determines how everything gets stitched together. Changing between an FRFR preset and the JVM was a simple as selecting a preset on my foot controller. I can do things like use an Axe FX model and send it to the JVM FX Return (Which enters the amp circuit after the pre-amp and before power amp stages). Or I can send to the front of the JVM (Preamp), pick up the signal from the FX send, then output it to the XiTone.
I can also insert FX into the preset at any point in the chain.
My goal was to be able to quickly and easily flip between different configurations to do A/B testing without re-wiring and jumping through hoops.
Have tried all the different configurations and the 1x12 does not hold a candle to the 4x12 setup (No surprise there).
The Axe FX amp models run into the JVM output stage have the pant flapping that one would expect when using a tube amp. It is not 100% the same, but it feels right.
Using the JVM preamp and output stage with Axe FX effects feels glorious.
The JVM preamp through the XiTone has the same lack of "chug" that is commonly described with modelers.
Straight up Axe FX and XiTone did not have the feel of the tube amp.
This is where I got to though: all of this is really just me geeking out for myself. Once you mic a tube amp and record it or send it to a PA, the recording/audience/sound engineer are getting what the Kemper or Axe is putting out: a mic capture of a incredibly small part of the larger sonic field that is being produced by the amp. That was the thing that helped me personally to get over the philosophical "hump".
Once I found peace with that, quickly recognized that the tone coming from the Axe FX was the tone that would be recorded or heard by a live audience. While room ambience is still a factor as is the impact of volume, but sound checks got easier and live tone became more consistent.
At home I kept this integrated setup. If recording I will using modeling and IRs with monitoring through a XiTone or studio speakers. If playing for my own enjoyment, it is JVM all the way.
Last edited:
RockyStar
Well-known member
I just discovered this! Fryette LXII 100W Tube Stereo Power Amplifier
It is an interesting piece to the modeler puzzle.
It is an interesting piece to the modeler puzzle.
RockyStar
Well-known member
Ordered the Kemper Kab today. Will know soon enough if this little Kab delivers or not.
rickenbacker198
Active member
Let us know too , what you think.
Monkey Man
Super Moderator
Awesome Rocky! 
If the format is too-small / not loud-enough for you, perhaps you could extrapolate how the Kones would sound in a 4 x 12.
If the format is too-small / not loud-enough for you, perhaps you could extrapolate how the Kones would sound in a 4 x 12.
RockyStar
Well-known member
For sure! I can't see it being a bad thing but the rubber will definitely meet the road once plugged in etc. I still can't believe I will be using anything but a 4x12 cab or two...lol.
RockyStar
Well-known member
True! I thought it would be the most cost effective way to see what is up with things and worst case, I could use it at home for practice and goofing around. If it does work well, I could see myself going the 4x12 route and using it as a monitor. If the sound just isn't there, I will know and can unwind and regroup.Awesome Rocky!
If the format is too-small / not loud-enough for you, perhaps you could extrapolate how the Kones would sound in a 4 x 12.
Monkey Man
Super Moderator
Great minds think alike brother, and as evidenced by you and me, so do dimwits. 
RockyStar
Well-known member
Don't be so hard on yourself...lol.Great minds think alike brother, and as evidenced by you and me, so do dimwits.
Monkey Man
Super Moderator
BatmansRigTalk
Active member
100%.
Golden ear claims get debunked in blind tests.
If you want Golden ears just remember to complain from the beginning about how the samples are bad performances to begin with and the equipment not set up properly.
People who argue that stage monitors can't produce a chest thump have never been to a concert in their lives.
Sound frequencies are sound frequencies. Pushing air is pushing air.
Palmer Macht 402 is fine. Seymour Duncan Power Stage is great also.
Friedman make some nice FRFR powered cabs also. Line6 have their own powered cab too. Mission is another.
Monkey Man
Super Moderator
... and yet the "pushing air can only be done by 4x12s" claim has legs and persists... 
K-Roll
Active member
The chug and thump that you've all been referring to is caused by your standard 4X12 cab sitting on the floor. Try raising it up and report back whether the same 'chug' is still present... i bet it's not 
. Which is also the reason why most FRFR speakers do not replicate it well. The footprint is just too small usually sitting angled with a single speaker pointed right at you.
Now - being at a concert, the thump and chug is not caused by the full range speakers but using the sub and in 99% cases therefore by the kick and bass guitar (HPF/LPF ..crossover FQ that feeds the sub vs the L/R monitors... bla bla bla)
. Which is also the reason why most FRFR speakers do not replicate it well. The footprint is just too small usually sitting angled with a single speaker pointed right at you. Now - being at a concert, the thump and chug is not caused by the full range speakers but using the sub and in 99% cases therefore by the kick and bass guitar (HPF/LPF ..crossover FQ that feeds the sub vs the L/R monitors... bla bla bla)
RockyStar
Well-known member
I am going to politely disagree with you on the chug comment in my experience. I typically use two 4x12 cabinets per head and often use a two amp setup so that could be 4 to 6 4x12 cabs in certain cases (sometimes I use a stereo head so I can use 4 cabs with it by itself). The sound or tone doesn't change overall if I stack them 2 high or keep them all on the ground. It can appear different because of the sound not hitting me in the face on some cabs. I wouldn't say I lose chug/thump/low end by cab placement. Not at loud volume for sure. Even if it were different, I don't think it would anywhere near equate to what we are talking about difference wise with the Kemper and the sound/feel in the room. I could be wrong, I have virtually no experience with the modeling / profiling side. All of my experience is with heads and cabs.The chug and thump that you've all been referring to is caused by your standard 4X12 cab sitting on the floor. Try raising it up and report back whether the same 'chug' is still present... i bet it's not
cardinal
Well-known member
But if you took them all off the floor (like how midrange PA speakers typically all), a lot of the thump goes away.
For what it's worth, I've been playing with an AFXIII for about a week, using a 4x12 on the floor (no cab sims). The sound in isolation is very good, but there is some oomph or thump that seems missing compared to when I fire up a similar tube amp. I'm not entirely sure it's true, just my impression, but it's not a huge deal either way.
For what it's worth, I've been playing with an AFXIII for about a week, using a 4x12 on the floor (no cab sims). The sound in isolation is very good, but there is some oomph or thump that seems missing compared to when I fire up a similar tube amp. I'm not entirely sure it's true, just my impression, but it's not a huge deal either way.
BatmansRigTalk
Active member
Where you stand is important because in certain positions the low peak range with the chest cavity thump isn't present anymore as it has gone. This happens with 4x12 and FRFRs. However, if you stand in front of a 4x12 cab you then you are in that frequencies pathway. With FRFR they can be out wider than directly in front. Think more along the lines of cinemas, Dolby atmos, and subwoofers. Height matters. The angle of the cabs/monitors matters as the sound dispersal differs but the chest thump is there for both if you move around to find them.
Furthermore, FRFR doesn't have the same low cut or high pass or compression like most stacks have. You set up those in addition to your profiles so they sound more like amps and cabs because FRFR is a literally full range, flat response. Sounds under 20hz and over 20K going on. Hence the need for setting up your filters right and compression. Then in addition to that, you have subtractive EQing to resemble a tube amps sound. Your tone improves with your sound engineer skills here. It's just a different way of doing things. You aren't going to have your sound tech with your amp's chassis open turning the bias until you find what feels right for your gig venue. Instead, they are going to be making the adjustments digitally using the profiling gear and EQing/compressing to find the same thing.
Furthermore, FRFR doesn't have the same low cut or high pass or compression like most stacks have. You set up those in addition to your profiles so they sound more like amps and cabs because FRFR is a literally full range, flat response. Sounds under 20hz and over 20K going on. Hence the need for setting up your filters right and compression. Then in addition to that, you have subtractive EQing to resemble a tube amps sound. Your tone improves with your sound engineer skills here. It's just a different way of doing things. You aren't going to have your sound tech with your amp's chassis open turning the bias until you find what feels right for your gig venue. Instead, they are going to be making the adjustments digitally using the profiling gear and EQing/compressing to find the same thing.
flimz
Active member
If your ears are used to that many 4x12's at once, you're probably gonna be in a bit of a shock going to a single 1x12 enclosure. You might wanna start scaling it back a bit, so when the Kab arrives your ears have already been narrowing things down.
RockyStar
Well-known member
No doubt. I am trying to have my expectations in check but it will be different for sure.
Hyperionguitarworks
Active member
I use a mooer baby bomb it’s fine but when I run it through the effects loop of my mark iv it’s godly! Check out the fryette power amps if you got the cash.
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