Preamp tubes???

[richedie]

Hey guys,

Any preamp tube recommendations for the EG5 and the SL2? I am looking to experiment and I have Sovteks in there now. I have some JJs, Tung Sol and an EH available now.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rich

 

[guitarslinger]

EG-5 = JJ's
SL-2 = Chinese


that's how I have it set up, and it's the best I've gotten without doing combinations yet.

 

[EWSEthan]

EG5 = EH
SL2 = Shuguang (Chinese)

 

[Jeff Hilligan]

no tubes

 

[richedie]

In other amps in doing tests before we found EH pres to sound better than JJs, but I have a bunch of JJs around so maybe I'll try that over the sovteks.

Really, the SL2 is that good with the cheaper Chinese tubes? Which one? Just straight up 12AX7?

How about Tung Sols?

I have EH tubes in my B'man and it sounds great!

Does it make a difference what tubes are in the head itself? I had to replace all the EH pre amp tubes in the head to JJs because those blew this week.

 

[EWSEthan]

I dont like JJs. I think they are harsh and abrasive, but thats just my opinion from when I tried them in my SLO.

For SL2, you want the Chinese Shuguang 12AX7B Silver Dragon tubes I got mine from http://www.boiaudioworks.com/ hands down the best tube in SL2. Chewy with more gain on tap.

EG5 benefits from EH because its a very crisp, clear tube. Great articulation and clean sounding. I thought the Sovteks were too sterile and the Shuguangs were too intense for EG5 which is already over the edge!

 

[Superunknown]

I dig the regular shitty Sovtek WA's or EH's in my modules.....JJ's sound to dark and I found that the chinese (great gain) had a liitle too much low end loss.....

 

[richedie]

the Chinese tubes cause a low end loss? Not sure now...

Maybe I'll go EH tubes in all module. I seem to like those.

What about in the head itself? They don't impact tone much, right??? I think Jeff mentioned that.

Why not some Tung Sols? I have a new Tung Sol and a new EH sitting around, maybe the Tung in V1 and EH in V2 on the EG5. How do I know which is V1? Closest to amp input?

 

[Audioholic]

Not sure about the eggies, but generally I have liked the Tung sol's in most things I have tried them in. Articulate and not overly harsh. JJ pre's, I have never liked anywhere I tried them, lack of definition and smush.

 

[richedie]

Sounds lie Tungs, EH and Chinese.

I want a little more gain out of A....so what does that...the Chinese?

What about the preamp tubes in the head? Impact tone?

 

[Jaded Faith]

Hey Rich! I did a TON of tube swapping and testing in both my RM4 + RT2/50 rack, my RM50 head and all my modules. By far and away, I prefer JJ ECC803's on the chassis of both my RM4 and RM50. I tried EH 12AX7's and Tung-Sol 12AX7's. I will try the Tung-Sols again, but for now I have settled on JJ ECC803's Gold Pins in V1, JJ ECC803's in V2 and Balanced JJ ECC803's in V3. I feel the rigs were more "alive" and reactive with the JJ's on the chassis and these tubes have a great deal of effect on the overall tone of your amp.

On most high gain modules I am running JJ ECC803's in V1 and Tung-Sol 12AX7's in V2. This pairing is great, with the Tung-Sol balancing the aggressive character of the JJ's perfectly. I use a JJ ECC81 in V1 on my Deluxe for less gain, but I can still get plenty of dirt if I dial it in. I played around with a few Ruby's and Sovtek's as well but they weren't my cup of tea. I have a pair of old Telefunken's that were AMAZING in my Plexi module, but they are super expensive.

For kicks, here are a few reviews of some power tubes I tried as well:

JJ 6L6GC: Biased at 40mV. Awesome for cleans and adds a natural scoop to the tone for metal high gain rhythm tones. Lots of lows, scooped but present mids and good smooth top end.

JJ EL34L: Biased at 35mV. Perfect for the Marshall crunch tone. Mids are crunchy and smooth at the same time. Good low end and more in control than the 6L6GC, tighter if you will. My second favorite for lead tones. Passable on cleans, but not as good as the 6L6GC.

Tung-Sol 5881: Biased at 35mV. Similar to the 6L6GC, but some notable differences. The lows were tamed down, the mids more present (particularly the upper mids) and the highs were the most present of all the tubes. I found I rolled the Presence back a notch or two with these. They have an airy 3D quality to them. They didn't sing as well for leads as the EL34L's, but the mids were less compressed and better for solo work than the 6L6GC's. I think this is because they don't overdrive as quickly as the EL34L's.

Tung-Sol EL34B: Biased at 35mV. Almost twice the price of the EL34L, but wow what a tube! The biggest surprise out of the bunch. These tubes have the best Marshall crunch and singing mids for lead work out of any of these. Good lows, amazing mids and smooth highs. Really worth trying a pair.

EH KT88: Biased at 49mV. These tubes sound huge. They do the best job out of all the tubes mentioned of covering clean, mid-gain, high-gain and lead all in one. Lots of lows, present crunchy mids and smooth singing highs. I had a pair of the JJ KT88's and they were twice the price. These sound different, but as good with their own flavor. At half the price, I would buy 2 sets of these next time before buying 1 set of the JJ's. Great value.

 

[richedie]

Thanks Rob and hello there!

I never tried the ECC803s because Bob at Eurotubes told me they were more for blues and jazz players, and not recommended for heavier music so I always went with the ECC83s tubes. Now I am wondering, haha.

I have some ECC83s, Tung Sols and EH tubes sitting around to try but may have to order up some of those other JJs, Rob.

I can determine V1, V2, etc in a standard tube head but I'll have to dig around to get some clarification on the Eggie MOD 50. Each module has two tubes which I assume are V1 and V2, makes sense.

You said, "JJ ECC803's Gold Pins in V1, JJ ECC803's in V2 and Balanced JJ ECC803's in V3" This is in the chassis? I assume that would be similar to the three preamp tubes in my MOD 50. I would think they would be V3, 4 and 5.

On my B'Man, I have the EH 12AX7s and think they perform very well. I just want to fine tune the SL2, EG5 and the chassis. Right now the chassis has three ECC83s.

I wasn't sure if the MOD 50 will take KT88s but I believe so. I tried 5881s, E34Ls and EL34s. EL34s are still my favorite. They always seem the most chewy which I like. I love how EL34s can break up a bit early and sing so well on leads. I could live with EL34s forever. I am using SED EL34s right now. I heard great things about the EH EL34s. I also hear tremendous things about the 6550s. Although a friend of mine was using those for a while and couldn't wait to get back to EL34s.

 

[Jaded Faith]

Rich
The chassis tubes have a big effect on the overall tone. Think about it like this. No matter what tubes you have in your modules, all of you signal flows through those chassis tubes 100% of the time. So you better like the color they provide!

Both the Eggie and Randall modules have the same tube layout on the modules. Looking at the module in front of you with the face towards you, the one on the left is V1 and the one on the right is V2. They are also labeled as such on the PCB board just to the right of the sockets if you are confused on that.

Looking at my RM50 (your Mod50 should be the same), the single 12AX7 towards the front and closest to the input is V1 on the chassis. V3 (the PI tube) is right next to the power tubes and V2 (the effects loop buffer tube) is the remaining. V1 and V3 had the biggest effect on the tone, with V1 being the biggie.

As for the ECC83/ECC803 question, here is Bob's description from Eurotubes.com:

This is the latest 12AX7 offering from JJ and once again it's a beautiful sounding tube. It's the longest plate 12AX7 type tube ever made. It has the same deep, tight low end that the ECC83S has but the mids in the ECC803S are even thicker and more harmonically complex than the ECC83S. The ECC803S is also a little hotter in the high end than the ECC83S. These are however not as high in gain as the JJ ECC83S. The ECC803S's are about 10% lower in gain.

Since I have my gain between 12:00 and 3:30 most of the time on any given module, I never suffer from the "I need more gain" problem. The ECC803's were thicker and a little more articulate to me. I like hearing every note in my chords, even if it's heavy power chord stuff.

Hope you are feeling better and really hoping to see you Tuesday night. It's been too long and we will get together as soon as this month passes (Ash's graduation, recital moving, etc) and we get back from Jay's wedding.

Rob

 

[richedie]

Rob, that tube layout is what I was thinking.....I just wasn't certain since I hadn't verified but it makes sense juts looking at the position of each. Hey it can't hurt to try so maybe I will get a few.

I never suffer from not having enough gain but I will say on the Super Lead module, I feel I could use a touch more on chaqnnel A. I use A for rhythm and B for lead so A needs to have enough to cover a variety of styles.

Channel A is great for classic rock! However, I switch to B for heavier styles. Problem is, there is no place to go from B for a solo other than using the rhythm tone for leads. That would not be a problem with a sound guy boosting for leads, LOL. I am trying different things, compressors, EQs, you name it. Obviously, with only jamming with friends, it is not a huge deal. For that reason, the drop in gain, even at 10% is concerning. LOL.
I would love to try the EH KT88s assuming they work in the MOD 50!? Not sure. The manual does not mention that tube type. It does handle 6550s which I believe are similar.

You have me interested in those Tung Sol EL34s, although I can't really find them for sale other than some european online stores. I love SED EL34s and want to try some EH EL34s. I have used JJ EL34s but think I like the SEDs better.
"The SED - SVEL34 is almost an exact copy of the classic Mullard EL34 Type III and is the perfect tube for any EL34 hi-fi amplifier - new or vintage, Marshall guitar amps and other EL34 applications. In fact, Marshall now installs the SVEL34 in all of their guitar amplifiers. The sound is rich, musical and detailed. A recent published Power Tube Taste Test in Guitar Player Magazine rated the SED SVEL34 as the best-sounding new EL34!"

Now, the EG5 has mucho gain so that is no problemo.


I know you have read these a hundred times...but I'll post them again...

803S
My observations: This is the latest 12AX7 offering from JJ and once again it's a beautiful sounding tube. It's the longest plate 12AX7 type tube ever made. It has the same deep, tight low end that the ECC83S has but the mids in the ECC803S are even thicker and more harmonically complex than the ECC83S. The ECC803S is also a little hotter in the high end than the ECC83S. These are however not as high in gain as the JJ ECC83S. The ECC803S's are about 10% lower in gain.

This is a great tube for V1 positions or for use in all positions in vintage amps. I do not recommend them for use in the gain stages of high gain amps if you like to run your gain maxed out. All preamp tubes are microphonic it's just a matter of where the threshold is and longer plate tubes will squeal before a short plate tube will, so for real high gain amps I would stay with the ECC83S or better yet the graded high gain ECC83S's that I hand pick for high gain amps. I also do not recommend these in small combo amps where the tubes are in close proximity to the speaker.

803S Gold Pin:
Well, he did. The best way to describe the difference is to say that the Gold pin tubes are a little smoother and richer sounding. With their fat, thick tone these make great V1 tubes if smooth and rich is your desire. I don't think these will be a big hit with most Metal players who are looking for a gritty edge but they make a great Rock and Blues tube!

Once again I don't use the long plates in combo amps where the tubes are located ground zero to the speakers.

 

[jkdsteve]

ECC803s really thicken the tone up and this can be muddy (and microphonic) under high gain. I have a couple that I use in lower gain modules.

 

[richedie]

ECC803s really thicken the tone up and this can be muddy (and microphonic) under high gain. I have a couple that I use in lower gain modules.

I am surprised because Rob(Jaded Faith) plays a lot of high gain and he loves the EC803s, and partly for the articulation under high gain.

I should have mentioned in my book of a post above that I tried the EC83S and Tung Sol in my SL2 and really like it. The tone is definitely more articulate, more aggressive and tighter. I was going to try the EC803S in the EG5 since that doesn't need as much gain.

I think the biggest factor are the tubes in the modules, not so much the chassic tubes. However, I know they make a difference, just not as much.

 

[Valtiel]

Rich
The chassis tubes have a big effect on the overall tone. Think about it like this. No matter what tubes you have in your modules, all of you signal flows through those chassis tubes 100% of the time. So you better like the color they provide!

Welcome to the forum!

In regards to the quote, this kind of contradicts what Jeff has posted previously:

V1 in the module is the tube on the left when looking at it in the amp. This tube is the "true" V1 but it only sees gain it has no effect on tone shaping. Thats why V1 in the module is talked about as the V1.

 

[Jaded Faith]

Thank for the welcome and glad to be here! Can't believe I didn't stumble upon this place a little sooner.

I spent a bunch of time about 2 weeks ago with about 25 different 12ax7-type tubes and a slew of different power tubes to see how I liked a whole bunch of different combos. Those comments about the chassis tube were just my findings through my ears. Of course someone else could always hear these things differently. I know I have seen quite a few postings on the Randall forums about the chassis tubes from both the Eggie and Randall R&D boys and they all seemed to agree they help shape the tones. To what degree is probably just a personal thing though. Anyway you look at it, these are some amazing amps!

 

[jmgman69]

Welcome aboard!

 

[hank]

ECC803s really thicken the tone up and this can be muddy (and microphonic) under high gain. I have a couple that I use in lower gain modules.

I am surprised because Rob(Jaded Faith) plays a lot of high gain and he loves the EC803s, and partly for the articulation under high gain.

just remember (since I'm sure ya'll are quite aware), your tone is the result of a system. I snapped to that not too long ago even though it should have been obvious to me. It depends on your speakers, cab, pickups, guitar, etc. as much, and in some cases even more so (i.e. speakers, pickups), than the tubes. That why I think that even with the same amp people get different results with the same tubes - one says articulate, one says muddy, etc.

Then there's the fact that even the same type tubes can and do vary from the published specs. Finally you have to factor in personal preference!

For example, a lot of people love the Tung Sol. In my own blind testing of a bunch of tubes in my modules, the Tung Sol always came out one of the worst. With my gear, and to my ears, it was always weak and thin and too low in the gain department compared to most of the other tubes (various JJ's, Sovteks, Chinese, etc)! Maybe I just got a bad one.