Reinhold Bogner Quote

[JamesPeters]

...I disagree that you don't get the dynamics.

Now does this particular comment make a difference related to your tone? For me, NO. I have played (and reviewed in depth) many of the best boutique amps, I have owned tons of heads, combos, and rack setups, and never once did I feel that my rack rig lacked anything tone-wise OR dynamics-wise compared to my traditional amps.

My main rig at the moment: ENGL e580 MIDI Tube Preamp into ENGL 850/100 power amp. The B-rig: Mesa/Boogie Triaxis into Mesa 2:Ninety.

It's true; you don't get exactly the same dynamics. However the difference is relatively small, and might not be noticeable in something other than a directly comparable setup. In your case, your setup isn't likely to be compared directly to let's say a vintage Marshall. You would have to compare to something similar in terms of dynamics like possibly an Engl head which sounds similar to your "main" rig. And in the case of modern high gain amps, the dynamics are purposely limited to get a focused/tight response. That means a comparison for a rig like yours might not yield the differences in dynamics that Bogner was referring to. And, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Capulin Overdrive]

this thread gave me headache!

 

[Ventura]

...I disagree that you don't get the dynamics.

Now does this particular comment make a difference related to your tone? For me, NO. I have played (and reviewed in depth) many of the best boutique amps, I have owned tons of heads, combos, and rack setups, and never once did I feel that my rack rig lacked anything tone-wise OR dynamics-wise compared to my traditional amps.

My main rig at the moment: ENGL e580 MIDI Tube Preamp into ENGL 850/100 power amp. The B-rig: Mesa/Boogie Triaxis into Mesa 2:Ninety.

It's true; you don't get exactly the same dynamics. However the difference is relatively small, and might not be noticeable in something other than a directly comparable setup. In your case, your setup isn't likely to be compared directly to let's say a vintage Marshall. You would have to compare to something similar in terms of dynamics like possibly an Engl head which sounds similar to your "main" rig. And in the case of modern high gain amps, the dynamics are purposely limited to get a focused/tight response. That means a comparison for a rig like yours might not yield the differences in dynamics that Bogner was referring to. And, there's nothing wrong with that.

THAT just summed it up for me, in its own hidden way... The differences are relative. And albeit the post wasn't saying this, this is what I'm going to go with. Having a united full head amp has its inherent benefits, and there's a definite interplay between preamp and powersection. But, find a preamp that allows your nuances to come through, and find a poweramp to exhibit these nuances, well, it's all relatively the same - relatively speaking

My most recent experience with the Mak4 is that it doesn't gel well with hard driven powersections, a lot of amp heads are counter to that - they sound best when pushed. All the flavor in the Mak4 is solely IN the preamp itself, and all it requires is a poweramp with gobs of headroom. Done. My 20thA OTOH, opens up when driven hard, and doesn't sound nearly as sweet at lower volumes (mind you, the new KT77's sure added some low volume love). All relative.

V.

 

[thegame]

I can't explain why electronically, but I always found pre's sounded much better using heads (usually Marshall) for power than separate, rack power amps. I think Metallica slaved their 2C+ into Marshall heads for Power IIRC.

I remember working in a store where we would take the JMP-1 and Triaxis and they would both sound better going into the return of a DSL's loop than using either the 9200/EL34 100/100 or Mesa 2:90.

Can you please describe in more detail the preamp into DSL vs. poweramp comparison ? Let me guess, thru the DSL it was more alive, more presence, better dynamics, etc ?

thanks

 

[novosibir]

a split system of pre and power amp can not give you the dynamics and response of a single circuit which incorporates both

I agree with Bogner's statement. If you're trying to get the same response as an amp "head" by using a separate preamp and poweramp, it's probably not going to happen 100% (unless the amp is designed in such a way that it might as well be like a separate preamp and poweramp, which is possible).

I also agree with Reinhold's statement.

And the following quote already is a diffuse hint to the reason, why:

John Suhr has said that it's got to do with the transformer(s). If you could use the same power for all units in a rack, it would respond and sound like a head.

Keep in mind, that in an amp head the entire preamp's voltage supply usually is taken of the power voltage supply.
As long as you're playing an amp head pretty quite, the head does have the same dynamics and response like a split system w/ separate preamp and poweramp, but...

... as soon as you're playing loud and you struck a chord, the voltage in the power section of a head is sagging, dropping - dropping down from i.e. 480V B+ at idle down to 380...400V at full blast i.e. in old Plexi Marshalls or down to 420...440V in amps with a more stable filtering like i.e. in a SLO100

So what happens, if/when the preamp's voltage supply is taken of the power stage's supply? Yes, the preamp's voltage supply also is sagging - and recovering - and sagging again...

In a separate preamp the voltage supply always stays stable w/o any sag during playing - and this is, what's influencing the dynamic and response difference of both methods, the more, the louder you're playing.

I think to the technical letter of the laws of electronics, this is a partially correct statement (response) because as one poster commented, sag created in a head affects both the power amp section AND the preamp section, whereas in the rack scenario, sag is only happening in the power amp. I disagree that you don't get the dynamics.

Now does this particular comment make a difference related to your tone? For me, NO. I have played (and reviewed in depth) many of the best boutique amps, I have owned tons of heads, combos, and rack setups, and never once did I feel that my rack rig lacked anything tone-wise OR dynamics-wise compared to my traditional amps.

Maybe I've misspelled my explanation a bit with my German's English and this maybe has confused some a bit? So let me try to set it some more clear - hopefully - and not still more confusing others.

Tonewise there's NO difference between an amp head and a preamp-poweramp-configuration, if inside the combination all's built in the same manner, as in the amp head. Means - same circuits, same components, same transformers (in the power amp), same voltages, same tubes, same principle (PTP or PCB) and done in a comparable layout w/ about the same lead dress, cable lenghts, aso.

Regarding the dynamics - the dynamic, what's attracted to the air - there's nearly no difference, because especially when playing loud or full blast, most of 'this' dynamic is coming out of the power stage - and a power amp is sagging in the same manner, as the power stage in an amp head (if they're built up the same).

But the (other) dynamic, what you feel by playing - or better said 'response' or 'playing feel' - is different. A preamp-poweramp-configuration doesn't follow your playing as good as an amp head, because the preamp isn't sagging. There's less response to your pick attack, the playing feel altogether is stiffer.

Hope, that I got my German thoughts understandable into English words

Larry

 

[thegame]

Larry, my new baby needs a proper mother. A 100w Monoblock mother.

 

[novosibir]

Larry, my new baby needs a proper mother. A 100w Monoblock mother.

I'll exhume my old notes from the early 90', then a slightly re-desing after the current DINO power stages and then I'll go into the starting blocks.
There will be two more useful details as opposed to my former creations, but what...

Larry

 

[Disfigured]

Here are a couple of interesting and completely different solutions to help the split preamp/power amp configuration interact more like a head.

This power amp provides power to its preamp counterpart via a power connector on the rear panel:

http://www.standelamps.com/switchmaster/484/index.html

This is Fryette's Dynamic Sensing circuit:

http://www.wikipatents.com/US-Patent-67 ... -regulator

Amp builders, are you listening?

 

[Suhr]

The following is a quote from Reinhold located on the Bogner website:


17 years ago to date as of 2009. It was the time when most of the people where using external multi channel pre-amps to achieve a vast variety of sounds, some used multiple amp setups. Reinhold realized two things early on, a split system of pre and power amp can not give you the dynamics and response of a single circuit which incorporates both, second there is a need to make an amplifier head which covers a huge tonal pallet of tones but with the organic feel and tone of the good old amps from the 60's.

Any thoughts on the language in blue font? Many great tones have been created via a split pre and power amp system. I can understand that a power and pre designed to be used together might be optimal but is your tone really that limited by using a separate power and pre?

There are reasons the two separated sound different and it is not all about the sag from the power section.
It can be overcome but it isn't as easy to make a preamp /power amp breath exactly the same as a head.
One of the biggest culprits is the lack of power amps that sound as good as some amplifiers power sections.
You also have many amplifiers depending on the power section manipulation. For instance cut bass in the preamp an boost heavily in the power section.
With a preamp you really dont know what power amp someone will plug in to. This can cause drastic differences.

Of course the sag can be an issue but not as much as people might think due to the charge times of the filter caps in the preamp section. It is also class A and always pulling current unlike the power section (usually).
The preamp gets a delayed response from the power amp sag. You cant even record a difference of voltage in the first stage when playing guitar (depending on the filtering). I find the differences can be made to be extremely minute. Layout, impedance of the power supply and filtering are the big issues.
I have built many rigs with Bradshaw where we could run the preamp in to the amplifiers returns as well as the preamp from each head. When done with care it can be very difficult to tell the difference. Plus you have a nice advantage. Absolutely not one bit of minute bleed in the effects loop at any volume (when using a volume pedal to shut the amp down).

The only way you are going to hear a difference when it is done correctly is to put it all up on a switcher and switch between a full head and a preamp with the exact same circuitry all the way through in to the same head. What is really amazing is to hear in a switcher is how different 2 mono power amps sound compared to many "stereo" power amps. The mono amps have a much wider spread due to no crosstalk.
I have done all these tests building the 3+SE in to an OD100 using the loop and used the OD as the power amp with exact same drive section as from the 3+ (the amp was changed to be exact). I can make them be pretty much dead nuts the same but you have to cross all your T's and dot your i's. It wasn't about sag in the end, more about supply impedance, voltages and layout. I also backed up my ears with Spectrum and sweep tests on an ATS-2.

I might be alone on this one but I hear a major difference when using a EI core transformer instead of a toroid. All with the same VA and voltages.
Some transformer engineers tell me I am certainly not alone in the Audio world on this.
It is also measurable especially with Spectral analysis and I have experienced it many times with the same preamp only changing out the transformer.

Only thing I can think of is that the toroid transformer is intolerant of a DC offset of the AC being present at the input (from your wall). This can happen depending on the quality of the voltage feeding the device. When this happens the Toroid can be prone to saturation. I don't avoid Toroids for all applications but I do advise doing your own listening tests.

 

[Shark Diver]

One of the biggest culprits is the lack of power amps that sound as good as some amplifiers power sections.
.

So, are we getting a Suhr power amp anytime soon?

 

[Ventura]

........as far as player generated dynamics are concerned once you have Rig-Talk approved gain....

Good one Ed. Needs to be coined!

Steve

Well, elitism does present in many different ways. It's not a bad thing ya know

V.

 

[tylerfreak]

if you want to use a preamp...why not just slave another head?

it is a poweramp, and you have a backup of sorts in case your pre goes out.