Solid state power amp for wet/dry rig

[Zachman]

Oh, I know Bob is amazing...but it would be nice if Bob didn't find himself that way. His stuff is truly awesome, but why can't he just be cool ? I've heard a bunch of horror stories all over the 'net (and some right here on this forum) of people being ripped off, never getting gear they ordered/paid for, etc... glad you got yours Zachman

I just was hoping not to derail the thread with such a focal shift.

Oh well...

 

[7 Stringer]

What about using a small PA mixer to blend everything and adjust the dry feed to the wet cabs? I have seen a couple pics and heard of some doing it with great results.

Larry Carlton way of WDW:

Should work great, even has gains to adjust if signal is too weak, EQ....

What do you guys think?

I have a couple small mixers lying around, i`ll try it out for the hell of it.

 

[Zachman]

What about using a small PA mixer to blend everything and adjust the dry feed to the wet cabs? I have seen a couple pics and heard of some doing it with great results.

Larry Carlton way of WDW:

Should work great, even has gains to adjust if signal is too weak, EQ....

What do you guys think?

I have a couple small mixers lying around, i`ll try it out for the hell of it.

It'll be a fun experiment for you. Go for it!

The only thing that matters is that it does what you want, the way you want, in the venues you intend to use it in.

 

[7 Stringer]

What about using a small PA mixer to blend everything and adjust the dry feed to the wet cabs? I have seen a couple pics and heard of some doing it with great results.

Larry Carlton way of WDW:

Should work great, even has gains to adjust if signal is too weak, EQ....

What do you guys think?

I have a couple small mixers lying around, i`ll try it out for the hell of it.

It'll be a fun experiment for you. Go for it!

The only thing that matters is that it does what you want, the way you want, in the venues you intend to use it in.

Worst thing that can happen is that it sounds like shit...LOL

When we do gigs, i pack my trusty old Boss BCB-6 with all my old Boss pedals and a Decimator and my 5150 II. Watch out, i`m heading for war. Ha ha.

But seriously, i ain`t gonna pack my whole rig for the small gigs we do, stages are too small and packed, we don`t even bring our cabs. It`s for the jam space and my basement as personal enjoyment. And of course the people that come over for our jam nights.

But back on topic, before i go and spend a pretty hefty amount on a CAE mixer, witch looks like the ultimate for my needs, i`ll give the PA mixer thing a try. I have a 4 and a 6 or 8 channel, i could patch in my H9 too. I`ll try it out tomorrow or on the week-end.

Should be fun.

Any drawbacks or hints on using this way?

Thanks man.

Chris

 

[Zachman]

What about using a small PA mixer to blend everything and adjust the dry feed to the wet cabs? I have seen a couple pics and heard of some doing it with great results.

Larry Carlton way of WDW:

Should work great, even has gains to adjust if signal is too weak, EQ....

What do you guys think?

I have a couple small mixers lying around, i`ll try it out for the hell of it.

It'll be a fun experiment for you. Go for it!

The only thing that matters is that it does what you want, the way you want, in the venues you intend to use it in.

Worst thing that can happen is that it sounds like shit...LOL

When we do gigs, i pack my trusty old Boss BCB-6 with all my old Boss pedals and a Decimator and my 5150 II. Watch out, i`m heading for war. Ha ha.

But seriously, i ain`t gonna pack my whole rig for the small gigs we do, stages are too small and packed, we don`t even bring our cabs. It`s for the jam space and my basement as personal enjoyment. And of course the people that come over for our jam nights.

But back on topic, before i go and spend a pretty hefty amount on a CAE mixer, witch looks like the ultimate for my needs, i`ll give the PA mixer thing a try. I have a 4 and a 6 or 8 channel, i could patch in my H9 too. I`ll try it out tomorrow or on the week-end.

Should be fun.

Any drawbacks or hints on using this way?

Thanks man.

Chris

The only negative potential in a live scenario that I can see is bleed thru from the Dry cab mic feeding the FX Inputs (snare drum hits triggering unwanted delay repeats, etc)

 

[paulyc]

Oh, I know Bob is amazing...but it would be nice if Bob didn't find himself that way. His stuff is truly awesome, but why can't he just be cool ? I've heard a bunch of horror stories all over the 'net (and some right here on this forum) of people being ripped off, never getting gear they ordered/paid for, etc... glad you got yours Zachman

I've written emails to CAE multiple times over the years and never gotten a response...

Steve

That was my experience too, then I called and he answered the phone. I needed some Carling switches for one of his foot controllers...he wanted 16.00 each, when I said I could get them for 1/3 that at some of the online electronic suppliers he went ape shit, yelling at me " why did you bother calling me then ???" I called him because I wasn't sure of the part number of the switch and I wanted to make sure I got the right one, AND because it was for a Rocktron/Bradshaw foot controller that HIS OWN SITE SAYS he doesn't service or provide parts for, so I THOUGHT MAYBE he'd be nice and tell me what part I needed and I'd be on my way. Then he says he has some of the switches, and I can have them for 16 bucks each...I don't like getting ripped off, and I needed 8 of them, so 8 x $5.00= $40.00,and free shipping or 8 x 16= $128.00+shipping, which way would you go ?

Sorry to de-rail the thread Zachman...

 

[paulyc]

What about using a small PA mixer to blend everything and adjust the dry feed to the wet cabs? I have seen a couple pics and heard of some doing it with great results.

Larry Carlton way of WDW:

Should work great, even has gains to adjust if signal is too weak, EQ....

What do you guys think?

I have a couple small mixers lying around, i`ll try it out for the hell of it.

Mark Tremonti uses a mixer like that in his rig too

 

[Mr. Willy]

Thanks for all the replies. I've learned a lot in this thread. I still don't know how many of you are actually using w/d/w (etc.) at gigs versus the guys who have massive rigs and just play at home. (I'm not knocking the later.) Stage real estate seems to get smaller and smaller. Plus, for you guys who run w/d/w or w/d or 2 amps (or whatever) and are miking to foh, you've got to have as many channels free on the mixer as you have cabs, right? Has this been an issue for any of you? Most sound guys wanna throw one mic on your cab and be done.

 

[paulyc]

I gig my smaller "B" rig out. Ceriatone King Kong, RJM Effects Gizmo, a bunch of pedals in the loops of the RJM, in the KK loop a Rockman Graphic EQ & Smartgate, line out from KK into some time based (chorus, delay, reverb) effects into a one rack space Marshall Valvestate (40 watt/side) poweramp. The dry cab is a Marshall Fawn 4x12 with greenbacks and the wet cabs are 2x12 vertical copies of Mesa Boogie's old 2x12 vertical cabs with vintage 30s in them. The footprint is basically like having 2 4x12 cabs on stage, plus the roadcase that houses the KK, RJM, pedals, poweramp, other effects, etc...The pedalboard out front has a Boss Tuner, a Vox Wah, and a DMC Ground Control Pro.

You are correct about soundmen...most only want one mic, but I just bitch, and I bring my own mics and stands and cords to make it easy on them. Most places have extra plugs in the snake...

The KK has a solo boost feature with it's own gain control allowing you to adjust the level and the dirt of the solo, so the effects cabs end up being heard anyway if I set it loud enough (even if they're not mic'd up).

 

[Mr. Willy]

I gig my smaller "B" rig out. Ceriatone King Kong, RJM Effects Gizmo, a bunch of pedals in the loops of the RJM, in the KK loop a Rockman Graphic EQ & Smartgate, line out from KK into some time based (chorus, delay, reverb) effects into a one rack space Marshall Valvestate (40 watt/side) poweramp. The dry cab is a Marshall Fawn 4x12 with greenbacks and the wet cabs are 2x12 vertical copies of Mesa Boogie's old 2x12 vertical cabs with vintage 30s in them. The footprint is basically like having 2 4x12 cabs on stage, plus the roadcase that houses the KK, RJM, pedals, poweramp, other effects, etc...The pedalboard out front has a Boss Tuner, a Vox Wah, and a DMC Ground Control Pro.

You are correct about soundmen...most only want one mic, but I just bitch, and I bring my own mics and stands and cords to make it easy on them. Most places have extra plugs in the snake...

The KK has a solo boost feature with it's own gain control allowing you to adjust the level and the dirt of the solo, so the effects cabs end up being heard anyway if I set it loud enough (even if they're not mic'd up).

The smallest "footprint" for me would be a 2x12 (dry) and two 1x12's for wet. That probably wouldn't take too much stage real estate. Do you have the sound man run all three of your channels at the same volumes at the mixer and you adjust the "mix" with your volume?

 

[paulyc]

My poweramp doesn't have volume controls on it, so what goes in comes out...bu t it works out ok. The sound guy (if they'll put 3 mics up) can blend it more. I look at it this way...ALL the pedals go through ALL the cabs when switched on, and I have an analog delay and a chorus pedal in that mix, so I CAN have those 2 effects without the W/D/W if I have to. The graphic EQ and the noise gate go through all the cabs too, so my tone shaping is all there. I'd only be missing out on the reverb, digital delay, chorus, and the big stereo split without it being mic'd...and I never run more than 30% or so effects in the wet cabs anyway... I make it work.

Your real estate "footprint" isn't going to be much smaller than mine...a 2x12 is as wide and deep as a 4x12, and 1x12s aren't much smaller than a vertical 2x12. I like the main "beef" coming from a 4x12 cab...

EDIT: I should add that I want to get an RJM mini line mixer for this setup, as I'd have more control over it without taking up any more space in the rack.

EDIT AGAIN ! : Sorry, I keep thinking of stuff...even if the audience can't hear the big stereo split and whatnot out front, I hear and "feel" it onstage, and it makes me feel better about my tone and more comfortable to perform...

 

[Zachman]

Thanks for all the replies. I've learned a lot in this thread. I still don't know how many of you are actually using w/d/w (etc.) at gigs versus the guys who have massive rigs and just play at home. (I'm not knocking the later.) Stage real estate seems to get smaller and smaller. Plus, for you guys who run w/d/w or w/d or 2 amps (or whatever) and are miking to foh, you've got to have as many channels free on the mixer as you have cabs, right? Has this been an issue for any of you? Most sound guys wanna throw one mic on your cab and be done.

When doing typical cover band type club gigs, I used smaller gear. When doing concert gigs, festivals and the like, and studio gigs it was usually the big rig w/ 3 cabs and 3 mics, but we were hiring the sound company, so they worked for us-- and were not giving us grief re: the 'Most sound guys' issues others may have experienced.

 

[psychodave]

This is all very interesting. I think I'll try a line mixer instead of using the effects to mix in my dry signal to my Left and Right W/D cabs...

Got my eye on the MarkL Dual Stereo Line Mixer. Looks pretty sweet, room for growth in my rig and covers looper and mixer in one device. Good price too for what it is capable of ($365 USD


Steve

Using a mixer is way better than using the effects to mix you signal.

I still loved the RJM mini mixer. $199 and has a small footprint. I actually have two of them to use with different racks.

 

[mentoneman]

What about using a small PA mixer to blend everything and adjust the dry feed to the wet cabs? I have seen a couple pics and heard of some doing it with great results.

Larry Carlton way of WDW:

Should work great, even has gains to adjust if signal is too weak, EQ....

What do you guys think?

I have a couple small mixers lying around, i`ll try it out for the hell of it.

i have heard that rig in person, as well as zach's, ej's ah via musicom rig, and several of mike landau's rigs over the years. all awesome. i will say that carlton's dumble lead tone was so incredible it has to be the best singular guitar tone i've ever heard and i'm not really that much into carlton. the w/d/w thing done right makes a great tone HUGE, and the mic on the dry cab is a bit more responsive as you would expect a mic'ed versus direct dry tone to sound on headphones.

ej's rig was really organic and beautiful--his fendery cleans are so huge and dramatic and the violin tone is legendary.

landau is my main man and i prefer his OD-100 lead tone mixed with his dumble super reverb and new sig amp clean sounds

zach's rig nails vh and luke and satch crunch and lead sounds and is capable of tons more

another tone monster of note is holdsworth
he went off the rails for a while dabbling with digital yamaha stuff after his masterful secrets era mesa mark III tone rig, but seems to have landed back on his feet with a weird pile of yamaha magic stomps making beautiful sounds once again

https://youtu.be/ZQu_O4nKK0I

 

[Zachman]

My poweramp doesn't have volume controls on it, so what goes in comes out...bu t it works out ok. The sound guy (if they'll put 3 mics up) can blend it more. I look at it this way...ALL the pedals go through ALL the cabs when switched on, and I have an analog delay and a chorus pedal in that mix, so I CAN have those 2 effects without the W/D/W if I have to. The graphic EQ and the noise gate go through all the cabs too, so my tone shaping is all there. I'd only be missing out on the reverb, digital delay, chorus, and the big stereo split without it being mic'd...and I never run more than 30% or so effects in the wet cabs anyway... I make it work.

Your real estate "footprint" isn't going to be much smaller than mine...a 2x12 is as wide and deep as a 4x12, and 1x12s aren't much smaller than a vertical 2x12. I like the main "beef" coming from a 4x12 cab...

EDIT: I should add that I want to get an RJM mini line mixer for this setup, as I'd have more control over it without taking up any more space in the rack.

EDIT AGAIN ! : Sorry, I keep thinking of stuff...even if the audience can't hear the big stereo split and whatnot out front, I hear and "feel" it onstage, and it makes me feel better about my tone and more comfortable to perform...

I used to go round and round coming up w/ scenarios too.

In the old days the previous rigs (stereo, and w/d/w), I ended up running into the wall (so to speak), in that I ended up wishing the rig did this or that or didn't do this or that, and so decided I was going to design and build a rig that I couldn't imagine being able to "max out" so I wouldn't have the headaches w/ redesigning and building another version etc. So far, so good. Unfortunately it ended up being rather large and involved pricey gear, but no regrets here. The rig is paid in full and gigging paid for it all many times over, so It was worth it for me.

Re: the audience not being able to hear the stereo split etc. I just thought I'd throw this out there, you may choose to record the live performances off the mixing console, and having the stereo field intact was desirable in that scenario, even if the FOH was mono. Most of the shows I did w/ the big rig, there was a stereo FOH mix.

 

[Zachman]

What about using a small PA mixer to blend everything and adjust the dry feed to the wet cabs? I have seen a couple pics and heard of some doing it with great results.

Larry Carlton way of WDW:

Should work great, even has gains to adjust if signal is too weak, EQ....

What do you guys think?

I have a couple small mixers lying around, i`ll try it out for the hell of it.

i have heard that rig in person, as well as zach's, ej's ah via musicom rig, and several of mike landau's rigs over the years. all awesome. i will say that carlton's dumble lead tone was so incredible it has to be the best singular guitar tone i've ever heard and i'm not really that much into carlton. the w/d/w thing done right makes a great tone HUGE, and the mic on the dry cab is a bit more responsive as you would expect a mic'ed versus direct dry tone to sound on headphones.

ej's rig was really organic and beautiful--his fendery cleans are so huge and dramatic and the violin tone is legendary.

landau is my main man and i prefer his OD-100 lead tone mixed with his dumble super reverb and new sig amp clean sounds

zach's rig nails vh and luke and satch crunch and lead sounds and is capable of tons more

another tone monster of note is holdsworth
he went off the rails for a while dabbling with digital yamaha stuff after his masterful secrets era mesa mark III tone rig, but seems to have landed back on his feet with a weird pile of yamaha magic stomps making beautiful sounds once again

https://youtu.be/ZQu_O4nKK0I

I'll never forget the night Allan played at the Galaxy theater in California, and we were hanging out drinking a beer and some jackass comes up and says to Allan, "So, you've got what $15K worth of gear there?" and Allan says, "Closer to $25K". The jackass responded, "and you used what, 2 tones the whole night?" to which Allan responded by saying, "Ya, but what did you think of the tone". I literally spit out my beer w/ an uncontrollable laughing fit. The guy just walked away defeated.

Allan is just cool as can be.

We gotta get together soon and jam again

 

[7 Stringer]

This is all very interesting. I think I'll try a line mixer instead of using the effects to mix in my dry signal to my Left and Right W/D cabs...

Got my eye on the MarkL Dual Stereo Line Mixer. Looks pretty sweet, room for growth in my rig and covers looper and mixer in one device. Good price too for what it is capable of ($365 USD


Steve

Using a mixer is way better than using the effects to mix you signal.

I still loved the RJM mini mixer. $199 and has a small footprint. I actually have two of them to use with different racks.

Does the level control on the RJM adjust the dry signal only so you can blend the effects with it? Or is it an overall level for the whole mix?

 

[CaseyCor]

I've got a slightly off topic question for you guys; how do you go about recording/mixing a W/D/W rig? MIc up all 3 cabs, and pan them L/C/R respectively? And how do you mix this kind of rig live?

I've been attempting to use Amp Sims and other VSTs inside Logic, and using Logic as a "canvas" for songwriting in order to increase my productivity. It's been going well on the writing side, and I've learned a good bit about how to make a Amp Sim plug-in sound good. I would like to create the digital equivalent of a W/D/W rig inside of Logic, both for recording and for general jamming. I'm not sure exactly how to go about doing this, as there seems to be quite a few answers. Monitor one dry track, and use the sends to bounce the signal to 2 wet tracks? Pan the wet tracks L/R, with dry down the center? That would sound killer for live play, but wouldn't it take up too much space in the mix when put together with bass/drums/vocals/keys? Especially after double tracking, and adding overdubs/leads.

So, the question is, how to create a "W/D/W-esque" rig in a DAW using VST plug-ins, and how to then mix the incoming signals both for live monitoring and recording. Any suggestions?

 

[Zachman]

I've got a slightly off topic question for you guys; how do you go about recording/mixing a W/D/W rig? MIc up all 3 cabs, and pan them L/C/R respectively?

You got it. Sometimes an ambient room mic to blend as well

And how do you mix this kind of rig live?

I generally had the Dry Center and L/R at 10 and 2 o'clock for live.

I've been attempting to use Amp Sims and other VSTs inside Logic, and using Logic as a "canvas" for songwriting in order to increase my productivity. It's been going well on the writing side, and I've learned a good bit about how to make a Amp Sim plug-in sound good. I would like to create the digital equivalent of a W/D/W rig inside of Logic, both for recording and for general jamming. I'm not sure exactly how to go about doing this, as there seems to be quite a few answers. Monitor one dry track, and use the sends to bounce the signal to 2 wet tracks? Pan the wet tracks L/R, with dry down the center? That would sound killer for live play, but wouldn't it take up too much space in the mix when put together with bass/drums/vocals/keys? Especially after double tracking, and adding overdubs/leads.

So, the question is, how to create a "W/D/W-esque" rig in a DAW using VST plug-ins, and how to then mix the incoming signals both for live monitoring and recording. Any suggestions?

Truly the mix and such need to take into account the song, and the other instruments, and mix appropriately so it all fits well. It may not always require a stereo spread (panning effects etc...) Sometimes I use crazy panning effects and whatnot but the meat & potatoes tones are usually simple. The w/d/w rig just sounds bigger... BUT Sometimes you don't want it to sound too big, so nothing is static in how I approach things. It's all a case by case situation. They (w/d/w rigs) just provide the options to be used if/when appropriate.

 

[CaseyCor]

It always feels nice when you ask a question, and find out your own assumptions are somewhat correct

I should have mentioned the purpose of setting up this kind of channel strip in my DAW. My project for this weekend is to set up a "template" project file which can be used for general purpose playing, writing, and recording. I want to sit down at my workstation, open up a pre-made project file, and immediately have a guitar sound I am happy with. It might not be the perfect sound for the song I'm working on or the song I end up starting to write, but it gets me to a space where I can be creative without the gear and technology getting in the way. The less time I have to spend setting up tracks and tweaking amp sounds/effects, the better. Getting a template project file built with fun guitar sounds, and a group of tracks pre-made for each section of a "basic" song would really help with time management, and keep me focused on playing/writing (the important part).

The template is a list of tracks for each part of a song (Verse 1 L, Verse 1 R, Pre-Chorus for each side, Chorus, Bridge...), set up with a pre-made channel strip and bus routing. Obviously all of this stuff will change as a song starts to take shape, but the basic configuration is enough to get me started on something new without mucking about in my bank of VSTs. Incorporating a simple W/D/W track into this template would give me a bit of "instant gratification" so to speak. Click a couple of buttons and plug into my pedalboard/interface, and immediately have a sound I'm happy with.

I've yet to mess with the W/D/W config within Logic, but at the moment my plan is to add 2 busses to the dry track for the wet sounds, panned left and right. A slight bit of delay/reverb is all I would need, considering this setup is to be used as a general purpose sound. Once a song takes shape, these channel strips will be modified for the specific guitar part. New effects, a change of amp sim/cab IR, and changes to the overall mix to suit the song. Is there a better way to set up this kind of virtual rig within a DAW?