Solid state power amp for wet/dry rig

[Zachman]

It always feels nice when you ask a question, and find out your own assumptions are somewhat correct

I should have mentioned the purpose of setting up this kind of channel strip in my DAW. My project for this weekend is to set up a "template" project file which can be used for general purpose playing, writing, and recording. I want to sit down at my workstation, open up a pre-made project file, and immediately have a guitar sound I am happy with. It might not be the perfect sound for the song I'm working on or the song I end up starting to write, but it gets me to a space where I can be creative without the gear and technology getting in the way. The less time I have to spend setting up tracks and tweaking amp sounds/effects, the better. Getting a template project file built with fun guitar sounds, and a group of tracks pre-made for each section of a "basic" song would really help with time management, and keep me focused on playing/writing (the important part).

The template is a list of tracks for each part of a song (Verse 1 L, Verse 1 R, Pre-Chorus for each side, Chorus, Bridge...), set up with a pre-made channel strip and bus routing. Obviously all of this stuff will change as a song starts to take shape, but the basic configuration is enough to get me started on something new without mucking about in my bank of VSTs. Incorporating a simple W/D/W track into this template would give me a bit of "instant gratification" so to speak. Click a couple of buttons and plug into my pedalboard/interface, and immediately have a sound I'm happy with.

I've yet to mess with the W/D/W config within Logic, but at the moment my plan is to add 2 busses to the dry track for the wet sounds, panned left and right. A slight bit of delay/reverb is all I would need, considering this setup is to be used as a general purpose sound. Once a song takes shape, these channel strips will be modified for the specific guitar part. New effects, a change of amp sim/cab IR, and changes to the overall mix to suit the song. Is there a better way to set up this kind of virtual rig within a DAW?

Never done it that way, but that's how I imagine I'd approach it, if I were doing that.

To me, You could just copy your main guitar track to 2 other channels/tracks and insert effects as needed and pan for spatial separation, but you brought up a very important thing and that's the inspiration that having it sound like this while writing and how it influences one's performance in real time, is something I admit is rather fun. If you're doing a track that the effects are an integral part of the piece, then tracking live that way is easiest for me.

 

[Anonymous]

This is all very interesting. I think I'll try a line mixer instead of using the effects to mix in my dry signal to my Left and Right W/D cabs...

Got my eye on the MarkL Dual Stereo Line Mixer. Looks pretty sweet, room for growth in my rig and covers looper and mixer in one device. Good price too for what it is capable of ($365 USD


Steve

Using a mixer is way better than using the effects to mix you signal.

I still loved the RJM mini mixer. $199 and has a small footprint. I actually have two of them to use with different racks.

Cool, I'm really interested in hearing the difference. I grabbed the MarkL unit directly from them and they said they'll ship on the 28th. I'll report back when I get it and get set up.

Steve

 

[Anonymous]

This is all very interesting. I think I'll try a line mixer instead of using the effects to mix in my dry signal to my Left and Right W/D cabs...

Got my eye on the MarkL Dual Stereo Line Mixer. Looks pretty sweet, room for growth in my rig and covers looper and mixer in one device. Good price too for what it is capable of ($365 USD


Steve

Using a mixer is way better than using the effects to mix you signal.

I still loved the RJM mini mixer. $199 and has a small footprint. I actually have two of them to use with different racks.

Does the level control on the RJM adjust the dry signal only so you can blend the effects with it? Or is it an overall level for the whole mix?

"Level: Overall level control. This control ranges from no output (fully counterclockwise) to a 3db boost (fully clockwise). Unity gain is at the 12 o’clock (straight up) position."

The manual is on the RJM site if you want to check out anything else...

Steve

 

[CaseyCor]

It always feels nice when you ask a question, and find out your own assumptions are somewhat correct

I should have mentioned the purpose of setting up this kind of channel strip in my DAW. My project for this weekend is to set up a "template" project file which can be used for general purpose playing, writing, and recording. I want to sit down at my workstation, open up a pre-made project file, and immediately have a guitar sound I am happy with. It might not be the perfect sound for the song I'm working on or the song I end up starting to write, but it gets me to a space where I can be creative without the gear and technology getting in the way. The less time I have to spend setting up tracks and tweaking amp sounds/effects, the better. Getting a template project file built with fun guitar sounds, and a group of tracks pre-made for each section of a "basic" song would really help with time management, and keep me focused on playing/writing (the important part).

The template is a list of tracks for each part of a song (Verse 1 L, Verse 1 R, Pre-Chorus for each side, Chorus, Bridge...), set up with a pre-made channel strip and bus routing. Obviously all of this stuff will change as a song starts to take shape, but the basic configuration is enough to get me started on something new without mucking about in my bank of VSTs. Incorporating a simple W/D/W track into this template would give me a bit of "instant gratification" so to speak. Click a couple of buttons and plug into my pedalboard/interface, and immediately have a sound I'm happy with.

I've yet to mess with the W/D/W config within Logic, but at the moment my plan is to add 2 busses to the dry track for the wet sounds, panned left and right. A slight bit of delay/reverb is all I would need, considering this setup is to be used as a general purpose sound. Once a song takes shape, these channel strips will be modified for the specific guitar part. New effects, a change of amp sim/cab IR, and changes to the overall mix to suit the song. Is there a better way to set up this kind of virtual rig within a DAW?

Never done it that way, but that's how I imagine I'd approach it, if I were doing that.

To me, You could just copy your main guitar track to 2 other channels/tracks and insert effects as needed and pan for spatial separation, but you brought up a very important thing and that's the inspiration that having it sound like this while writing and how it influences one's performance in real time, is something I admit is rather fun. If you're doing a track that the effects are an integral part of the piece, then tracking live that way is easiest for me.

Yeah, the point is to have the big high gain rhythm sound I want to hear when I'm sitting down to play, in order to ease the writing process. If I was processing pre-recorded tracks, I would copy/paste the takes to different tracks and modify the channel strips from there. It seems like I would have more flexibility going that route, but I can't do that in this case. I'm going for a live monitoring sound, so I can just play. I'm not always using this setup just to record. I will use this rig for sitting down to play for 20 minutes, with no goals other than to enjoy myself.

OK, so what kind of effects do people usually use on their basic "rhythm" sound in a W/D/W setting? A slight delay on the wet sides? What kind of delay, and what types of settings? Feedback, repeats, etc... I like the idea of using a slight delay on the wet sides to create space, but I need to retain tightness, as I am writing a lot of progressive metal type stuff lately.

As always, you have been a huge help Zach!

 

[Anonymous]

OK, so what kind of effects do people usually use on their basic "rhythm" sound in a W/D/W setting? A slight delay on the wet sides? What kind of delay, and what types of settings? Feedback, repeats, etc... I like the idea of using a slight delay on the wet sides to create space, but I need to retain tightness, as I am writing a lot of progressive metal type stuff lately.

I take the single rhythm track and pan it center, then I use the Eventide H3000 plugin on a stereo aux bus and set it for micropitchshift (Left -9 cents, Right +9 cents). I also run a stereo delay on another aux bus and set it Left - 250ms, Right - 500ms and a couple of repeats. I set the effects 100% wet. I don't think in the context of recording there is any need for dry L/R as you would want for a live sound.

This is a fun W/D/W sound inside a DAW for writing, etc., however, in the context of an actual mix/song, I always let the track dictate the mix and I'd never start mixing with a W/D/W as I suggest above. I just start with a single raw rhythm guitar track panned center, or two tracks I've recorded that are panned hard left and right and see what the track needs from there. In all honesty, I can't thing of any recent things I've recorded that are actually W/D/W. Sometimes I add delay, micropitchshift or reverb and sometimes I don't - all depends on the track. In any case, use the effects sparingly in the mix - I always have the dry sound way more present in the mix than anything else. The effects are icing on the cake to me, unless your The Edge or something and the effect is the song...

Steve

 

[7 Stringer]

This is all very interesting. I think I'll try a line mixer instead of using the effects to mix in my dry signal to my Left and Right W/D cabs...

Got my eye on the MarkL Dual Stereo Line Mixer. Looks pretty sweet, room for growth in my rig and covers looper and mixer in one device. Good price too for what it is capable of ($365 USD


Steve

Using a mixer is way better than using the effects to mix you signal.

I still loved the RJM mini mixer. $199 and has a small footprint. I actually have two of them to use with different racks.

Does the level control on the RJM adjust the dry signal only so you can blend the effects with it? Or is it an overall level for the whole mix?

"Level: Overall level control. This control ranges from no output (fully counterclockwise) to a 3db boost (fully clockwise). Unity gain is at the 12 o’clock (straight up) position."

The manual is on the RJM site if you want to check out anything else...

Steve

Yeah, i see. So it won't work.

So I absolutely need a mixer with a mix control to do what i want.

Either that Mark L or the CAE.

In the mean time i see your thoughts on the Mark L, i ll fiddle with the PA mixer idea.

Thanks

Chris

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah, i see. So it won't work. So I absolutely need a mixer with a mix control to do what i want.

Well, you could always adjust the dry and wet mix with your effects level controls I guess...

Either that Mark L or the CAE. In the mean time i see your thoughts on the Mark L,

The CAE that was posted above is no longer made. Good luck getting one of those. I think the MarkL is gonna be great...

i ll fiddle with the PA mixer idea.

Cool - I'll report back on what I think of the MarkL. The MarkL cost me $351 USD. Fair for what it is if you ask me... I could make one myself, but I'd rather build my amps...

Steve

 

[Zachman]

It always feels nice when you ask a question, and find out your own assumptions are somewhat correct

I should have mentioned the purpose of setting up this kind of channel strip in my DAW. My project for this weekend is to set up a "template" project file which can be used for general purpose playing, writing, and recording. I want to sit down at my workstation, open up a pre-made project file, and immediately have a guitar sound I am happy with. It might not be the perfect sound for the song I'm working on or the song I end up starting to write, but it gets me to a space where I can be creative without the gear and technology getting in the way. The less time I have to spend setting up tracks and tweaking amp sounds/effects, the better. Getting a template project file built with fun guitar sounds, and a group of tracks pre-made for each section of a "basic" song would really help with time management, and keep me focused on playing/writing (the important part).

The template is a list of tracks for each part of a song (Verse 1 L, Verse 1 R, Pre-Chorus for each side, Chorus, Bridge...), set up with a pre-made channel strip and bus routing. Obviously all of this stuff will change as a song starts to take shape, but the basic configuration is enough to get me started on something new without mucking about in my bank of VSTs. Incorporating a simple W/D/W track into this template would give me a bit of "instant gratification" so to speak. Click a couple of buttons and plug into my pedalboard/interface, and immediately have a sound I'm happy with.

I've yet to mess with the W/D/W config within Logic, but at the moment my plan is to add 2 busses to the dry track for the wet sounds, panned left and right. A slight bit of delay/reverb is all I would need, considering this setup is to be used as a general purpose sound. Once a song takes shape, these channel strips will be modified for the specific guitar part. New effects, a change of amp sim/cab IR, and changes to the overall mix to suit the song. Is there a better way to set up this kind of virtual rig within a DAW?

Never done it that way, but that's how I imagine I'd approach it, if I were doing that.

To me, You could just copy your main guitar track to 2 other channels/tracks and insert effects as needed and pan for spatial separation, but you brought up a very important thing and that's the inspiration that having it sound like this while writing and how it influences one's performance in real time, is something I admit is rather fun. If you're doing a track that the effects are an integral part of the piece, then tracking live that way is easiest for me.

Yeah, the point is to have the big high gain rhythm sound I want to hear when I'm sitting down to play, in order to ease the writing process. If I was processing pre-recorded tracks, I would copy/paste the takes to different tracks and modify the channel strips from there. It seems like I would have more flexibility going that route, but I can't do that in this case. I'm going for a live monitoring sound, so I can just play. I'm not always using this setup just to record. I will use this rig for sitting down to play for 20 minutes, with no goals other than to enjoy myself.

OK, so what kind of effects do people usually use on their basic "rhythm" sound in a W/D/W setting? A slight delay on the wet sides? What kind of delay, and what types of settings? Feedback, repeats, etc... I like the idea of using a slight delay on the wet sides to create space, but I need to retain tightness, as I am writing a lot of progressive metal type stuff lately.

As always, you have been a huge help Zach!

As far as 3D effects, panning delays (Multitap delays, Circular delays etc., dual delays (250mS L/500mS R), Chorus, Tremolo, Flanging, Phasing,Pitch Shifters, Detune, etc. Anything goes.

One of my favorite w/d/w tone albums:

 

[CaseyCor]

Micro pitch shifting is the next thing on my list to play with. I really love how Devin Townsend uses tons of delay, even on high gain rhythm tracks, but it doesn't cloud up the mix or take away from the tightness needed for fast metal rhythms. I've used very little delay over the years, so I'm not as experienced with this. I've put a bit of delay on some leads, or used long trailing echoes for ambient sounds before...but I haven't done this kind of stuff. I'm experimenting running W/D/W with delay on each side right now, laying it on top of a track I recorded a few days ago. I'm having trouble keeping the definition and tightness, while still creating a sense of "bigness". I'm using a mono delay plug-in called H-Delay, from a huge Waves Audio pack I've got here. Tons of good stuff in here. Perhaps there is a decent micro pitch shifter I can play around with in here. I've had good luck with Stillwell Audio's CMX Stereo Microshifter Plugin in the past, but I don't have it on this machine currently.

I need to learn how to use delay "Devin Townsend style", creating a big rhythm track with tons of definition and "balls" (I hate that, but it's accurate). Types of delay, the settings on the delay, and the volume of the wet sides. Seems to me that in this situation, the wet mix needs to be pretty low under the dry sound. Just enough to change the feel of the track, without "muddy-ing" up the sound and taking out the definition.

Sorry for hijacking this thread, and thanks for the help everyone.

 

[Zachman]

Micro pitch shifting is the next thing on my list to play with. I really love how Devin Townsend uses tons of delay, even on high gain rhythm tracks, but it doesn't cloud up the mix or take away from the tightness needed for fast metal rhythms. I've used very little delay over the years, so I'm not as experienced with this. I've put a bit of delay on some leads, or used long trailing echoes for ambient sounds before...but I haven't done this kind of stuff. I'm experimenting running W/D/W with delay on each side right now, laying it on top of a track I recorded a few days ago. I'm having trouble keeping the definition and tightness, while still creating a sense of "bigness". I'm using a mono delay plug-in called H-Delay, from a huge Waves Audio pack I've got here. Tons of good stuff in here. Perhaps there is a decent micro pitch shifter I can play around with in here. I've had good luck with Stillwell Audio's CMX Stereo Microshifter Plugin in the past, but I don't have it on this machine currently.

I need to learn how to use delay "Devin Townsend style", creating a big rhythm track with tons of definition and "balls" (I hate that, but it's accurate). Types of delay, the settings on the delay, and the volume of the wet sides. Seems to me that in this situation, the wet mix needs to be pretty low under the dry sound. Just enough to change the feel of the track, without "muddy-ing" up the sound and taking out the definition.

Sorry for hijacking this thread, and thanks for the help everyone.

I love the TC 2290 Dynamic delay when not wanting to muddle up fast rhythm/lead passes around 6:30 the dynamic section starts

 

[CaseyCor]

Who doesn't love the 2290!? Haha. A mainstay in rack setups, even to this day. I've never owned one, but I used one when producing a local band in Illinois, and there was one in the FOH rack at a venue I ran sound at for a bit.

I used to have a TC Electronic Spatial Expander, which is one of my favorite chorus sounds. It was stolen from me a very long time ago . The Stereo Chorus/Flanger pedal they make now is the closest I've ever heard to nailing that sound. I need to pick one of those up. If anyone knows of any VST plug-ins that get similar sounds to either of these units (2290 Dynamic Delay and the 1210 Spatial Expander), PLEASE let me know!

 

[Zachman]

Who doesn't love the 2290!? Haha. A mainstay in rack setups, even to this day. I've never owned one, but I used one when producing a local band in Illinois, and there was one in the FOH rack at a venue I ran sound at for a bit.

I used to have a TC Electronic Spatial Expander, which is one of my favorite chorus sounds. It was stolen from me a very long time ago . The Stereo Chorus/Flanger pedal they make now is the closest I've ever heard to nailing that sound. I need to pick one of those up. If anyone knows of any VST plug-ins that get similar sounds to either of these units (2290 Dynamic Delay and the 1210 Spatial Expander), PLEASE let me know!

We share the same affinity for certain gear. That's for sure.

Fun self-indulgent gear shot:

I would suggest you check out the Eventide H8000 plugins

https://www.eventideaudio.com/products/plugins

I love the Hardware H8000FW

https://soundcloud.com/eventideaudio/eventide-h8000-audio-demo

 

[7 Stringer]

Yeah, i see. So it won't work. So I absolutely need a mixer with a mix control to do what i want.

Well, you could always adjust the dry and wet mix with your effects level controls I guess...

Either that Mark L or the CAE. In the mean time i see your thoughts on the Mark L,

The CAE that was posted above is no longer made. Good luck getting one of those. I think the MarkL is gonna be great...

i ll fiddle with the PA mixer idea.

Cool - I'll report back on what I think of the MarkL. The MarkL cost me $351 USD. Fair for what it is if you ask me... I could make one myself, but I'd rather build my amps...

Steve

I tried mixing some dry with the processor but it lost some punch and had a phasey tone, tried changing the phase with the ISO box but the. Sounded paper thin.

I thought i saw the CAE on his site.... But to think of it i think i read he was making the full 1U at thus time.

$351 ain't bad at all, i thought i saw more than that, like 439 euro. I guess that was list price.

For sure to let us know how that line mixer works out.

Chris

 

[CaseyCor]

I will most likely buy the H3000 plug-in when I have the funds. I picked up the Stillwell plug-in pack, which is killer. I've only scratched the surface of what's included, but so far it's great. The CMX Microshifter is very cool (H3000 kinda vibe). I'm using a Parametric EQ at the end of my guitar effects chain as both a low and high pass filter to get rid of some of the harsh high end "digital" sounding artifacts, and to tighten up the low end. I'm going to try replacing that Para EQ with the Vibe-EQ plugin from Stillwell. The Bad Buss Mojo and Tinman plug-ins seem really interesting too. I'll be spending my night tonight messing with these plug-ins.

Hey Zach, do you still have that while Agile Ghost? Such a cool looking guitar!

 

[Zachman]

I will most likely buy the H3000 plug-in when I have the funds. I picked up the Stillwell plug-in pack, which is killer. I've only scratched the surface of what's included, but so far it's great. The CMX Microshifter is very cool (H3000 kinda vibe). I'm using a Parametric EQ at the end of my guitar effects chain as both a low and high pass filter to get rid of some of the harsh high end "digital" sounding artifacts, and to tighten up the low end. I'm going to try replacing that Para EQ with the Vibe-EQ plugin from Stillwell. The Bad Buss Mojo and Tinman plug-ins seem really interesting too. I'll be spending my night tonight messing with these plug-ins.

Hey Zach, do you still have that while Agile Ghost? Such a cool looking guitar!

No, the Ghost has found a new home a while ago.

Got a cool Gibson Firebird though

 

[CaseyCor]

Ah, I see. Cool. Those guitars are hard to track down!

I dig Firebirds. I wasn't that into them when I was a kid, but then I saw Kim Thayil from Soundgarden playing a red one, and it looked great. Unique sound and look.

 

[7 Stringer]

It god damn works guys, and it works awesome, no hiss, no clipping, pure reproduction of my dry tone. I can adjust the EQ too so i can add mids or whatever it needs. Pretty flat now with a touch of bass and reduced highs.

A bit tricky to get everything leveled as i need to teeak my presets accordingly, i can't put all the effects 100% as i need to balance my preset before hand and then blend in with the mixer and add as much dry as i want in the wet cabs.

Now i know what you ment in adding some dry. Before, i blended the dry through the processor, sounded like shit, that phasing issue. No more with the $60 mixer.

I will make my self a little bracket and tuck the mixer in the back of my little compartment in my road case, fits right in there. Gonna be perfect with some custum cut wiring and all.

I am stoked now. Really happy with my findings and it cost nothing!!!!!!!!

 

[Zachman]

It god damn works guys, and it works awesome, no hiss, no clipping, pure reproduction of my dry tone. I can adjust the EQ too so i can add mids or whatever it needs. Pretty flat now with a touch of bass and reduced highs.

A bit tricky to get everything leveled as i need to teeak my presets accordingly, i can't put all the effects 100% as i need to balance my preset before hand and then blend in with the mixer and add as much dry as i want in the wet cabs.

Now i know what you ment in adding some dry. Before, i blended the dry through the processor, sounded like shit, that phasing issue. No more with the $60 mixer.

I will make my self a little bracket and tuck the mixer in the back of my little compartment in my road case, fits right in there. Gonna be perfect with some custum cut wiring and all.

I am stoked now. Really happy with my findings and it cost nothing!!!!!!!!

Welcome to the Matrix

 

[Zachman]

Ah, I see. Cool. Those guitars are hard to track down!

I dig Firebirds. I wasn't that into them when I was a kid, but then I saw Kim Thayil from Soundgarden playing a red one, and it looked great. Unique sound and look.

I've been mostly playing my Gibson LP Standard, GMW VH2 replica, and my Valley Arts mutt guitar through the Cameron Atomica

Just noodling

 

[7 Stringer]

OK, setup done and proven, had a jam tonight and god damn, sounds huge and wide. Dry in the wet cabs is a must damn it, i am now in the matrix!!!!!!

Will see if it overpowers two guitars in the mix tomorrow night, it is seriously big sounding, perfect for a one guitarist scenario. I think that with a mixer like this you have way more control, i can adjust the wet/dry mix to a T and add as much or little dry as i want, EQ to boot to fine tune with the main cab. I can even add my H9 in there with ease, will need to make space in the drawer for that.

I made a shelf in my spare storage area in the rack, added some rubber feet to give the mixer an angle.

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