Speaking of Rig Rundowns that Suck....

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phil b
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Start the fire and flames but from what I see from WAY TOO MANY guys are the attitude of "it sounds good enough" . What the fuck is that?? "Well, its easier to carry...cheaper..blah blah"... Fuck all that. I dont ever remember any of the guys I knew who were building their rig, whether it was a full blown rack or an amp with just some pedals ever being content with "good enough" I know players today who play thru garbage, know and admit their sound isnt very good, but everyone is drunk so who cares? I dont understand that. When your rig, no matter what it is... when your really dialed into it.. its inspiring. Makes you want to play, boosts the adrenaline...etc. and guess what.. you DO sound better overall. there are people in the audience who do care how your rig sounds, no matter what a lot of guys think. This is all art... and too many people forget that.

Fer Christs sake....even if its just an amp and a few pedals... If ya strive for the best you really will stand out. Dont sell yourself short with "Good Enough"!
Sorry for the rant... You may now flame away.............
BTW, I tiotally get when there are times you have absolutely no control re: logistics with backline....That is not what I am talking about whatsoever. Peace..
 
it’s been so hard to find the inspiration to build a 12 space rack of what most from the good enough crowd consider outdated rack gear that their latest toy of the year can do better.

But most of these modelers are modeling stereo rigs, stereo amps, stereo effects, and that I’m building the real deal that inspires me to play. I don’t need 400 amp models and such, in fact most will likely admit they need 400 amp models to find just one or two that work for them. Why judge against those that buy the real deal?

One thing that’s very valid is the cost of tubes going up from covid but quality of tubes going way down due to unfortunate current world events. Modelers don’t have to deal with that but I do.

I’m glad there’s many here on the forum that pride themselves on choosing a rig that works for them and going for it if they can. It’s taken me many years to get my rig together.
 
I agree, that's something I never understood. Whenever I plug in I'll play a distorted d-chord and just smile. It's so much fun to have great tone and play for yourself without caring ehat the FOH will sound like. Being lazy about tone is also totally killing the attitude for me because it's mainly due to economic reasons (and that's not very rock n roll imho).
 
Some people just aren't tone chasers.

Me, I'm a chaser and I always have been. Always will be. As Ed said, "it's just part of my DNA."

I consider the sound, the timbre, of music to be equally important as the actual composition. Tone is what makes music music.

My journey with tone has been a constant over the last twenty years. It's something I've always pushed for and explored. Even when I was destitute fucking broke running shitty software with a $10 Chinese interface I bought on eBay, I was doing everything I could to chase tone, finding every possible avenue to capturing that sound I've always associated with my voice.

Even when I do indulge in chasing other people's tones, and I often do, it usually just leads me back to what I like, because my tone is what I respond to, it feeds back into me and controls my playing - the same way a great amp feeds off of the player.
 
i’ve been at it for 30 years and still have great fun refining tone and upgrading components and functionality of my rigs.
it’s also encouraging when others beside myself suggest that some of that work has paid dividends.

 
Nah, ‘good enough’ is all that’s needed. You won’t see it the same way if you don’t tour, but carrying and hauling the shit, on top of potential theft, loss, damage to gear that is an investment are major hurdles. The sound guy is absolutely going to fuck up your preciously crafted tone anyway, and these days the barrier of entry to having decent tone is much lower than it used to be. There’s no reason to lug a 6k+ rig around the country when you can get reasonably close for 2k. Your audience doesn’t know shit about tone, and aren’t actually going to hear you anyway. You have the filter of mics, room acoustics, PA, soundboard processing, etc, which each piece of that puzzle has a larger impact on the final tone than your amp, pickups, even your speakers.

The hunt for tone and gear is an endeavor of personal satisfaction, the vast majority of music listeners will not think twice about it. If you want to show off the gear we all love, the most meaningful place to do that is going to be on recording. If it’s not being recorded, tone doesn’t mean a damn thing outside of the moment a sound enters a players ears in the moment, in a room. That satisfaction and inspiration is important, but it’s a singular moment in time and place that cannot be captured without the process of capturing changing the sound.

So, play the gear that inspires you, but “good enough” is totally a viable excuse for why actual working musicians are not utilizing the most top of the line or complicated rigs.

Not to mention, many of our favorite tones were crafted due to inherent limitations, musicians making due with what was accessible to them, and being creative with it.
 
I have a bunch of thoughts here that I can't quite put together coherently without some time. For now I'll leave it at if you're looking at "this sounds close enough" as being lazy about refining your tone or flat out not giving a crap about how you sound, then you're putting off airs that you don't care about your art.
 
My 'good enough' rig is one of practicality, weight and logistic limitations;
EVH 5150III 50W + a vertical Mesa 2x12 cab.
Of course I made sure to
-change tubes
-change speakers
-add beam blocker to the V30

but most of the time for smaller gigs, I'm carpooling with the other guitarplayer and he's bringing a JVM and a 2x12 as well. Each of us has pedalboards, 2 guitars, and we still need to fit all that in a standard station wagon, not a van.
For larger gigs, we don't carpool and we can bring 4x12 cabs each.
And hell, given the tone-snobbery or tone-chasing of some (with apparently deeper pockets) here, they'd probably consider my Engl Invader a 'just good enough' rig, because I didn't fork out insane $$$ for Wizards, Mark IIC+'s, etc.

Oh well. Some of those people haven't played the big festivals and stages I have. :sneaky:
And FWIW, I still got a shit ton compliments from both guitarists and 'regular crowd folk' on my tone. YMMV.
 
phil b said:
Start the fire and flames but from what I see from WAY TOO MANY guys are the attitude of "it sounds good enough" . What the fuck is that?? "Well, its easier to carry...cheaper..blah blah"... Fuck all that. I dont ever remember any of the guys I knew who were building their rig, whether it was a full blown rack or an amp with just some pedals ever being content with "good enough" I know players today who play thru garbage, know and admit their sound isnt very good, but everyone is drunk so who cares? I dont understand that. When your rig, no matter what it is... when your really dialed into it.. its inspiring. Makes you want to play, boosts the adrenaline...etc. and guess what.. you DO sound better overall. there are people in the audience who do care how your rig sounds, no matter what a lot of guys think. This is all art... and too many people forget that.

Fer Christs sake....even if its just an amp and a few pedals... If ya strive for the best you really will stand out. Dont sell yourself short with "Good Enough"!
Sorry for the rant... You may now flame away.............
BTW, I tiotally get when there are times you have absolutely no control re: logistics with backline....That is not what I am talking about whatsoever. Peace..
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The Average Concert Fan won't know that someone is using a 1979 Marshall JMP 2203 Boosted with a TS-9 That you rubbed against your balls for extra oomph. That's one of the top reasons i've heard from friends who tour that have switched to Digital. I'm friends with Robb from Machine Head & They were using Kempers at the last U.S. Show i saw in Ft. Lauderdale.
 
many of the fans at live shows are not watching or listening to the music, they're too busy taking videos of the show on their iPhones. the guitar artists' magical tones are going to be lost.

I enjoy my 50W and 100W tube amps at home where I can hear them. That said, I play my computer rig more than anything else; with my studio monitors or into a PA with subs.

My experience playing live, though dated, is what we were hearing on stage wasn't what the crowd was hearing through the PA, unless they were close to hear the amps/racks from the stage - smaller gigs we used stage volume because the small PAs could only be used for vocals. If you didn't have your own PA and sound guy, it was a crapshoot relying on the random soundguy - even bribes of drinks and money wasn't guaranteed to help.

Most places that have live shows today have very good sound systems. If I was to play live today, I'd bring my computer rig direct out to FOH; we'd need a good FRFR monitoring rig which many places have now too. I'm really enjoying my ISP Theta Pro, very old school reminds me of my old ADA rack rig, I'd use this live, with the ISP Stealth Pro amp and a Mesa recto compact 2x12, and direct outs to FOH.

The only tube amp I'd play live is my Origin 50C, sounds great to me, small, loud, cheap, and powerscaling works well...but it's not going to impress anyone who's expecting or comparing it to a vintage plexi halfstack.

TL;DR;, I enjoy my tube amps at home, but I mostly play my computer plugin rig, it sounds like the fully processed stereo sound, all it needs is to be amplified in a FRFR PA. My computer rig fits in a backpack, minus the longer cables. It doesn't sound good enough, it sounds great to me at any volume as long as the speakers and power are clean FRFR.
 
Spaceboy said:
The sound guy is absolutely going to fuck up your preciously crafted tone anyway
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What do you think about just providing more sound yourself? More gear to lug around but maybe worth it for local gigs at least? Venue acoustics vary too, apart from sound guy.
 
I'm one of those "it sounds good enough" dudes these days.....25+ years of playing guitar and toane chasing has led me to believe that while a lot of the super high end unobtainium stuff is really good, it's not a big enough difference from the bog standard stuff to be worth thousands of dollars to me.
 
denialist said:
What do you think about just providing more sound yourself?
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How do you see that in practice? And what exactly is 'more'? Refinement of tone, sheer volume, sound sources?

Just adding cabs won't change the fact that the venue's acoustics are a given. And especially in smaller venues, are you willing to schlep a bunch of side-fills yourself, because you're banking on the ineptitude of some sound guy?

In most smaller venues sound guys will complain already if your backline is too loud. One of the reasons my band decided to skip those shows. Sure, less gigs per year, but at least we have decent/good sound now since the venues are large enough to control, instead of a small bar with a 15' by 10' stage.
And I'm not going to play in-ear + digital any time soon. But I'm not bringing 2 to 4 vintage Marshall full stacks to a show either...
we played with a band (sort of local heroes, older guys in their late 50's that had some regional fame in the 80's) once that did. The stacks were ALL on. It was f#@kin' awesome to see, but it was shit-loud and the guys' tone wasn't even all that to be honest. A bit too gurgly and raspy for my taste.
Saw a similar act in a small venue who brought a vintage JMP with one 4x12 cab and he sounded better...
TL;DR: More isn't always more.
 
I think we need to acknowledge that this a board that primarily caters to tone chasers and amp / guitar elitists that have made a hobby (and in certain cases an obsession) out of exploring the best possible options in the market. I am guilty of that myself certainly, and quite enjoy it. That said, those of us that have spent time in the studio and on the road have probably come to acknowledge a few things:

1. what sounds and feels great in the room at home, sitting in front of a cab at reasonable volumes (both amp choice and settings) doesn't usually work as well in the studio, or on the stage

2. what sounds amazing in the studio is often far different that what works in the context of a live setting, and can be difficult to duplicate live without a modeling set up

3. an effective live set up and how it's dialed in may not sound great at home, or in the studio

4. simplicity, consistency and reliability are indispensable on the road

5. as much as we all love the nuances of great tone, most casual fans do not take too much notice. Great songs, performance and overall experience is what they are after

Just some general thoughts.
 
Speeddemon said:
How do you see that in practice? And what exactly is 'more'? Refinement of tone, sheer volume, sound sources?
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Yeah, envisioning more cabs more places/directions. Not louder — so sound guy can’t complain, but bigger/fuller. And I’m thinking from the goal of getting decent sound to the audience, not perfect, using basic gear — not boutique/pricey. It sucks having to compete with the sound guy, don’t blame you for avoiding those venues.
 
If they don't care about their tone, they should just switch to Bass.
 
Detroit1973 said:
The Average Concert Fan won't know that someone is using a 1979 Marshall JMP 2203 Boosted with a TS-9 That you rubbed against your balls for extra oomph. That's one of the top reasons i've heard from friends who tour that have switched to Digital. I'm friends with Robb from Machine Head & They were using Kempers at the last U.S. Show i saw in Ft. Lauderdale.
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Most average fans don't know anything anyway, not being mean they just don't so switching to digital because they don't know the difference doesn't make any sense. If that was the case solid state would have taken over years ago long before digital.

It's the guys making the music, they do know the difference. And if they've switched it's because the difference in feel and tone is either negligible to them or they're saving touring costs hauling gear (I'd say 75% this), not because of the fans.
 
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jabps said:
Most average fans don't know anything anyway, not being mean they just don't so switching to digital because they don't know the difference doesn't make any sense. If that was the case solid state would have taken over years ago log before digital.

It's the guys making the music, they do know the difference. And if they've switched it's because the difference in feel and tone is either negligible to them or they're saving touring costs hauling gear (I'd say 75% this), not because of the fans.
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The Number 1 & 2 i always hear from Friends that tour is 1. The Cost of Touring now. 2. The Audience can't tell the difference between a real 5150 & a kemper profile of a 5150. Most of my friends are in Metal & HC bands so Most of them are running some form of 5150 or dual rec....Ocassionally a Marshall, usually the JVM. This is the experience i've had with the few artist i iknow that use Fractal or Kempers.
 
For me, tone begins and ends at "Does this get the point across?" As much as I absolutely love everything about guitars and gear, the songs are still the end goal for me and because of that, I can't really be picky. Sometimes ya gotta murder what you love when writing music and the same goes for mixing.

And it doesn't matter what I play through, it all sounds like me. I used to flip back and forth between a Dual Rec, Mark IV or a 5150, never figuring out which one I preferred because ultimately I had no preference, they all sounded fucking great doing what I did with them. There are subtleties different to each amp I might prefer more/less one day than the other, I know at one point with every damn amp I've ever owned I've had a "Ahhhh yeah, that's fucking IT right there!" period and then I didn't......but "fucking IT right there" never leaves the amp, I was just getting caught up in "Well....maybe this does that better..."

It's like porn; ya never want to finish on the vid you're on in case the next one is better. But giving myself an intent/goal in the form of the final product (song), that absolutely helps narrow the search parameters considerably. Getting an amp for the band I'm putting together, I knew I needed it to chug. Snagged the 5153 for cheap, it chugs, has 3 channels, done! Everything else I'll do with my hands.

And that's not even getting into the absolute fucking uselessness of finding ONE specific tone that you expect to project into an audience night after night and being so precious about it that you've formed a complex or identity over THAT single tone. One of my former guitarist did this; would only play with this Dual Rec cranked to shit and back with specific settings, no matter where we were or how bad it sounded in the room/recording/band.

If you're just jammin' out in your home or with buddies and it's not a 'serious' band effort where you need to be part of the equation and not the focus, have at it. Go fucking crazy finding it. Let it consume you, it'll keep you active and probably creative.
 
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RevDrucifer said:
For me, tone begins and ends at "Does this get the point across?" As much as I absolutely love everything about guitars and gear, the songs are still the end goal for me and because of that, I can't really be picky. Sometimes ya gotta murder what you love when writing music and the same goes for mixing.

And it doesn't matter what I play through, it all sounds like me. I used to flip back and forth between a Dual Rec, Mark IV or a 5150, never figuring out which one I preferred because ultimately I had no preference, they all sounded fucking great doing what I did with them. There are subtleties different to each amp I might prefer more/less one day than the other, I know at one point with every damn amp I've ever owned I've had a "Ahhhh yeah, that's fucking IT right there!" period and then I didn't......but "fucking IT right there" never leaves the amp, I was just getting caught up in "Well....maybe this does that better..."

It's like porn; ya never want to finish on the vid you're on in case the next one is better. But giving myself an intent/goal in the form of the final product (song), that absolutely helps narrow the search parameters considerably. Getting an amp for the band I'm putting together, I knew I needed it to chug. Snagged the 5153 for cheap, it chugs, has 3 channels, done! Everything else I'll do with my hands.

And that's not even getting into the absolute fucking uselessness of finding ONE specific tone that you expect to project into an audience night after night and being so precious about it that you've formed a complex or identity over THAT single tone. One of my former guitarist did this; would only play with this Dual Rec cranked to shit and back with specific settings, no matter where we were or how bad it sounded in the room/recording/band.

If you're just jammin' out in your home or with buddies and it's not a 'serious' band effort where you need to be part of the equation and not the focus, have at it. Go fucking crazy finding it. Let it consume you, it'll keep you active and probably creative.
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Exactly! Please fondle me boob.
 
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