Spot the Tube Amp vs Modeler - 3 clips

[RevDrucifer]

Once going into an IR and all that no one can tell the difference on these clips, myself included. I think micing a real cab is where you get the difference. But then there’s a huge variable because of different speakers.maybe running the axe into the return then micing? I don’t know the right answer just spit balling here.

I guessed B.

FWIW, if this test is done, it should come with the handicap of ‘only adjusting the Tone page in AxeEdit’, since that’s the amp’s authentic controls without all the Fractal bells and whistles of the deeper parameters where you can turn a 2203 into a Pignose if you wanted to.

Having done this before with a few different amps, IMO, it closes the gap even more with the introduction of a tube power stage and real cabs, because all the feel is there. For the most part, the differences come down to component tolerances at that level.

 

[Jdub]

OP... or anyone else with RWE. So do you think an AXE FX into a power amp and real cab is close enough to not need the real amp? Maybe I should build an AXEFX rig so I have a large variety of other than Marshall/Friedman and Mark IV tones at my disposable. Provided the difference is negligible, it may be worth the investment.. What do you think?

 

[dstroud]

They all sound great, I call C as the real deal but I actually liked B the best I think. A had a plasticy feel, B seemed to have it way less,

 

[RevDrucifer]

OP... or anyone else with RWE. So do you think an AXE FX into a power amp and real cab is close enough to not need the real amp? Maybe I should build an AXEFX rig so I have a large variety of other than Marshall/Friedman and Mark IV tones at my disposable. Provided the difference is negligible, it may be worth the investment.. What do you think?

It’s my preferred method to use a modeler in a live setting.

If you’re not cranking up to ear bleed volumes, a Class D power amp does the trick fine. I was in a R&B/rock cover band using a Duncan 170 to power a 2x12, using my FM9 for all the tones. It worked fine for that, I didn’t feel I was lacking anything by not using a tube power section, but I also wasn’t cranking up and at most, using edge of breakup tones.

But when I started getting the itch to play in a metal band again and knowing what I wanted within that experience (the wallop of a tube power section hitting me while I play), cranking the Duncan 170 wasn’t quite cutting it. It can get REALLY close, especially fucking with the speaker impedance curves (even going into actual cabs) but eventually I just said “Fuck it, I’m getting something with tubes whether it’s an amp or power amp”

Several heads popped up for dirt cheap locally, so I grabbed those before getting a power amp. Now I’ve got the FM9 in 4CM with an EVH 50-watt and can swap out the EVH’s preamp or use whatever is in the Fractal and it’s my favorite live rig I’ve ever put together. And I can still send a DI to FOH if need be.

FWIW, getting into this area of detail can be like splitting hairs for some people. I see people perfectly happy using either the 170, 200 or 1000 watt Duncan’s to power cabs and they don’t feel they’re missing anything, but you have zero clue what their previous experiences entail or if they’ve ever even played through a tube amp.

FWIW.2.0, I had my first tube amp at age 12 and started gigging at 15 up until I was in my late 30’s and used tube amps (mostly Mesa’s and 5150’s) the entire time.

 

[jski59]

OP... or anyone else with RWE. So do you think an AXE FX into a power amp and real cab is close enough to not need the real amp? Maybe I should build an AXEFX rig so I have a large variety of other than Marshall/Friedman and Mark IV tones at my disposable. Provided the difference is negligible, it may be worth the investment.. What do you think?

I gigging rig is an FM3-Powerstage170-2x12 cab for stage volume, then also feed FOH direct from the FM3. Sounds awesome and I don't miss my amps at all.

My last amp was a Friedman Marsha I played for about 12 years. Before that...an Ecstasy, Quickrod, Mark IV, Mark III, 5150, JCM800 and probably several others I'm forgetting. The modeler setup sounds and feels great. And it's the cheapest rig I've had in years, lol.

The only amp I still have (and currently for sale...maybe) is an SL67. I've dialed in a Fractal patch that sounds so close, but it still doesn't do that great plexi vowel sound when it's cranked and starving for juice.

 

[TheGreatGreen]

OP... or anyone else with RWE. So do you think an AXE FX into a power amp and real cab is close enough to not need the real amp? Maybe I should build an AXEFX rig so I have a large variety of other than Marshall/Friedman and Mark IV tones at my disposable. Provided the difference is negligible, it may be worth the investment.. What do you think?

Personally I think the Axe-Fx III is the most useful piece of musical equipment I have ever purchased, easily. I love my tube amps, they make me happy, but I think the Axe-Fx is without exaggeration the most useful tool a guitarist can own, full stop.

Seriously, even forgetting about how good the thing sounds, I have learned more about electric guitar gear by tweaking around in the Axe-Fx over the years than all my years of forums reading and youtube watching combined. There just is something about sitting down with a guitar and turning knobs that can teach you things no amount of reading can. And if you can conceptualize it, chances are good you can reproduce it in this thing.

Even if I didn't use the amp modeling at all, as is often the case, I'd still recommend it, absolutely. Let's forget about amp modeling for a minute and just talk about effects. I truly believe there is not a better, more comprehensive delay effect anywhere, in any product for guitarists you can buy, than the Delay block in the Axe-Fx III. Same with Reverb. Same with EQ. Same with IR's. Same with almost every single effect in the thing with the exception of Fuzz (modelers almost categorically cannot do proper fuzz, it's just an inherent thing with the technology that necessarily removes the direct guitar->fuzz connection necessary for the effect to work right). And while I'd bet there are some other wizbang effects out there that can't be reproduced in the Axe-Fx, there honestly probably aren't many.

And let's not forget routing capabilities. About two years ago I came up with a patch layout that allows for a true W/D/D/W rig where the effects work in series (so like the delay trails get processed by the reverb block, etc) so they sound as natural as possible with zero effects weirdness or compatibility/mixing issues, while also allowing you to blend any amount of dry signal into the wet cabs and vice versa, while also condensing that W/D/D/W signal into a simple stereo feed for Front of House routing, all with zero mix or phase issues. I don't know of anything else on the market that can come close to allowing you to just... come up with that idea and build it from nothing. Here's what the patch looks like, and a link to the thread I posted about it:

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/clean-capable-w-d-w-foh-grid-routing-idea.183177/

And even aside from all that effects and routing stuff, the amp modeling is pretty dang good too.

 

[Jdub]

Personally I think the Axe-Fx III is the most useful piece of musical equipment I have ever purchased, easily. I love my tube amps, they make me happy, but I think the Axe-Fx is without exaggeration the most useful tool a guitarist can own, full stop.

Seriously, even forgetting about how good the thing sounds, I have learned more about electric guitar gear by tweaking around in the Axe-Fx over the years than all my years of forums reading and youtube watching combined. There just is something about sitting down with a guitar and turning knobs that can teach you things no amount of reading can. And if you can conceptualize it, chances are good you can reproduce it in this thing.

Even if I didn't use the amp modeling at all, as is often the case, I'd still recommend it, absolutely. Let's forget about amp modeling for a minute and just talk about effects. I truly believe there is not a better, more comprehensive delay effect anywhere, in any product for guitarists you can buy, than the Delay block in the Axe-Fx III. Same with Reverb. Same with EQ. Same with IR's. Same with almost every single effect in the thing with the exception of Fuzz (modelers almost categorically cannot do proper fuzz, it's just an inherent thing with the technology that necessarily removes the direct guitar->fuzz connection necessary for the effect to work right). And while I'd bet there are some other wizbang effects out there that can't be reproduced in the Axe-Fx, there honestly probably aren't many.

And let's not forget routing capabilities. About two years ago I came up with a patch layout that allows for a true W/D/D/W rig where the effects work in series (so like the delay trails get processed by the reverb block, etc) so they sound as natural as possible with zero effects weirdness or compatibility/mixing issues, while also allowing you to blend any amount of dry signal into the wet cabs and vice versa, while also condensing that W/D/D/W signal into a simple stereo feed for Front of House routing, all with zero mix or phase issues. I don't know of anything else on the market that can come close to allowing you to just... come up with that idea and build it from nothing. Here's what the patch looks like, and a link to the thread I posted about it:

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/clean-capable-w-d-w-foh-grid-routing-idea.183177/

And even aside from all that effects and rounding stuff, the amp modeling is pretty dang good too.

Thanks for the detailed response! I had the FM3 until just a few months, but I am not big on menu dives etc. so barely scratched the surface. I would get frustrated navigating the menus etc. so I sold it. I do recognize it is an extremely useful piece of gear regardless with so many applications... If I could wrangle the patience and go through the learning curve it would come in handy. Currently in a cover band doing lots of Rush, but also a mixed bag of other stuff. I have to do some tap dancing for sure... The Fractal would be great and make things easy if I could manage to get it dialed in...

 

[TheGreatGreen]

Thanks for the detailed response! I had the FM3 until just a few months, but I am not big on menu dives etc. so barely scratched the surface. I would get frustrated navigating the menus etc. so I sold it. I do recognize it is an extremely useful piece of gear regardless with so many applications... If I could wrangle the patience and go through the learning curve it would come in handy. Currently in a cover band doing lots of Rush, but also a mixed bag of other stuff. I have to do some tap dancing for sure... The Fractal would be great and make things easy if I could manage to get it dialed in...

Personally I almost never use the front panel. 99% of my time using it is spent in the editor. When you use the editor, the menu diving is very non-intrusive.

However I will say on-the-fly tweakability is probably the Axe-Fx's greatest weakness. If I had to go play a gig or session without tones already dialed in, I'd rather use a menu-less rig. Environments like that are where the workflow of using a real amp and analog pedalboard shines.

 

[RevDrucifer]

Thanks for the detailed response! I had the FM3 until just a few months, but I am not big on menu dives etc. so barely scratched the surface. I would get frustrated navigating the menus etc. so I sold it. I do recognize it is an extremely useful piece of gear regardless with so many applications... If I could wrangle the patience and go through the learning curve it would come in handy. Currently in a cover band doing lots of Rush, but also a mixed bag of other stuff. I have to do some tap dancing for sure... The Fractal would be great and make things easy if I could manage to get it dialed in...

FWIW, the FM9 and AxeFX III have gapless switching now, they’re still working on getting it to the FM3 and have no promises about it. The whole reason Scenes and Channels existed was to close the gap on switching times and the gapless shit just made both those into organizational tools because you can just jump through different amps/signal chains like it’s nothin’ now.

While learning how to set up the Scenes and Channels to better organize your tones is always going to be helpful, you could always just say “Fuck it, I’m making a separate preset for everything I do and I’m just pressing a single preset increment footswitch the whole set”

 

[fearhk213]

I'm guessing C is the real amp. To my ears is sounds a little more wild with a little more swing (less control) in the low end, which you hear mostly in the last part of the playing. A & B sound a little closer to each other and sound more controlled. All sound really good, though, so who knows lol. I know you didn't level match them on purpose, but that would have been helpful for an A/B/C test.

 

[Nobody7]

It’s c but would be way more apparent in a live performance

 

[Jdub]

FWIW, the FM9 and AxeFX III have gapless switching now, they’re still working on getting it to the FM3 and have no promises about it. The whole reason Scenes and Channels existed was to close the gap on switching times and the gapless shit just made both those into organizational tools because you can just jump through different amps/signal chains like it’s nothin’ now.

While learning how to set up the Scenes and Channels to better organize your tones is always going to be helpful, you could always just say “Fuck it, I’m making a separate preset for everything I do and I’m just pressing a single preset increment footswitch the whole set”

thanks!

 

[Little B]

I agree with this as well. When all of the sounds are going into a digital format, it's very easy to tweak anything to sound the same. It's all an "illusion." You can make a 5W amp sound like a giant blaring full stack or a 100W amp sound tiny. Producers do this all the time with artistic intent.

It's when you try to take the digital sounds out into the real world is when you see the similarities fall away. The best digital rig I had at one time was an Axe Fx 3 going into a Fryette LXII. It sounded good, no doubt about it. But when I A/B'd it against the real amps it was modeling it wasn't close. I always preferred the real amps.

^^^^ this. I just posted about this on another thread.When you're in the digital realm with a modeler, you're now nothing but 1s and zeros on cu chip that will need an upgrade,and can alter and tweak anything to the 9th degree.You now can " trick" the ear into perceiving anything it wants to hear.
My only use for one would be late at night,at home or maybe to write ideas down with.Thats it.
When it's let's go live time, I as well as most can easily pick out the fake amp tones live.You can just hear it.Its that simple,really.For some people,close enough is good enough..For others,there's simply no substitute for the real amplifier,which is really,an instrument unto itself to learn.Not very long ago I was hired to do a session on a live worship concert recording a while back at a big week long event.Lots of big names there.I saw an axe fx,one Kemperer,and 2 helix's.No stage cabs-all in ears.
Thk god since I came in as a hired gun I had a bit more flexibility and room to do what I wanted.I ran a BadCat and a 1964 Princeton reverb both cranked very high into a 2x12 cab each,mic'd with a 906 & 57. Cabs were locked in old closet room.
Side monitors guy shot me a mix of thier modelers,tweaked too,mind you.It wasn't bad but you could tell it was a bit sterile and digital. I kept thier mix on a side chain as I obviously had to hear what they were playing.
During the 5 nights of gigs there,I noticed at times the side mon.guys pointing at me and I mistook it for them snearing at me at times.I knew the charts well so it had to be my tones,right?
The last day I politely and edicately confronted them asking if I was doing something wrong all week?
Geesh did I call this one wrong.F.o.h. guy came with side mon guys and wanted to know what my secret was with my sounds I was getting going to f.o.h? And they've seen my rig all week. They said both of the other hired players were frustrated as to why when we heard they the raw tones caught on tape,thiers sounded like a bunch of bees in a can and mine was huge,full,warm, and yet punchy? Mind you,I was off the clock now and could've really rubbed in the amp vs digital squabble some seem to have.
Anywho,point is,live,in a real world setting,listening out front, i can tell a modeler from a real amp a mile away....a few months later I ran into the f.o.h.engineer up town and he told me those other 2 guys told him they really were only using the modelers cause of convenience and that only.I dnt know if that plays into anything here,but I'm starting to see a pattern line up there.
Since I made such a small comment here,ill split with this: I say play thru whatever tickles your feathers. You want the ax fx and close enoughs? Have at it..if you fancy 2-4x12 cabs under a 100 watt SLO blowin at ur pant legs? Have at it! Make music.

 

[TheGreatGreen]

Ok, the poll is closed, and the real amp is....

Clip C

Totals:
Clip C: 10 votes
Others: 6 votes

You guys who selected "C" have great ears! The ratio of correct/incorrect votes was a lot higher on this forum than the others where I posted this.


However, the video in the OP was exclusive to this site and got over 80 views, which means most people who heard the clips didn't vote. In other words, less than 12% of the people who listened guessed correctly. To me, this suggests it's getting tougher and tougher to tell what's tube and what's digital. So the next time someone starts talking about how modeling "just can't come close" to the real thing and how easy it is to hear the "obvious" differences, maybe ask yourself exactly what experience they've had testing that theory, because in my experience it's not quite as "obvious" as some people might claim. Is it identical? No. But is the best modeling available at least comparable to tube amps? I believe it absolutely can be.

 

[RaceU4her]

i was wrong like usual lol

 

[ghosty999]

Yes

OP... or anyone else with RWE. So do you think an AXE FX into a power amp and real cab is close enough to not need the real amp? Maybe I should build an AXEFX rig so I have a large variety of other than Marshall/Friedman and Mark IV tones at my disposable. Provided the difference is negligible, it may be worth the investment.. What do you think?

Yes, this is what I do. Rack Valve Power amp EL84 20/20 or a Palmer Macht 402 into a V30s loaded cab. Best of both worlds.

 

[Elric]

Personally I think the Axe-Fx III is the most useful piece of musical equipment I have ever purchased, easily. I love my tube amps, they make me happy, but I think the Axe-Fx is without exaggeration the most useful tool a guitarist can own, full stop.

Quoted for truth. In digital, there is Fractal and then there is everyone else. IMHO.

Like @TheGreatGreen , I own a bunch of other gear and amps but the Fractal could absolutely be my entire rig if I did not have that luxury of collecting analog stuff as well. Fractal + Powerstation + Cab can equal about any head you could find at any price.