Terje ...

[kannibul]

This is a kind of funny thread, since I'm probably one of a handful of members who is both a guitarist and a drummer, and has gigged both ways...

Fact is, drums, due to their nature, will potentially do more damage hearing more than guitars at any volume. It's a jolt to the eardrum.

Now, as a rock drummer, I play loud. REALLY loud. I don't break drum heads or cymbals, but I have shattered drum sticks (causing them to literally explode in the middle, not split along the grain) - I know I play really fucking loud with the band.

However, when I'm by myself just playing around - that's not the case! A good drummer knows balance. If a guitarist is blasting with his Marshall 100w (tube) half-stack with it around 4-5, and the bass player has a 300w ampeg stack, with it turned 1/2-3/4 up, you can bet, that being unmic'd, I'm playing as hard as I can muster without hurting myself (and even that's debatable).

To be honest, the biggest volume drivers are guitarists. We love the sound of our amps turned up, which makes everyone louder.

I can play with dynamics - however in Modern Rock music, there isn't room for dynamics. Dynamics is about changing of intensity, not just playing soft. If a drummer can't control his volume, there is an issue there - but there are ways to help that - a drum shield for one...

Anyhow...

 

[Gainzilla]

I agree. I have significant hearing loss in my right ear. My amp has ALWAYS been behind me to the left while my fat, hard hitting drummer-brother has always been to my right. I can't imagine my problems being caused by anything besides my brother's snare.

Having said that I still can't get myself to wear earplugs. I know I should, but it's simply not the same. I've said it before and I'll say it again...it's like fucking with a rubber.

They say it's actually the cymbals that cause the damage. I guess the frequency they're at is what does it.

The thing that kills me more than anything is the snare. The Cymbals definitely contribute but the snare just flat out destroys me so more than not, Ill wear something in the ear thats on the side of the drummer and Im ok..

 

[kannibul]

I agree. I have significant hearing loss in my right ear. My amp has ALWAYS been behind me to the left while my fat, hard hitting drummer-brother has always been to my right. I can't imagine my problems being caused by anything besides my brother's snare.

Having said that I still can't get myself to wear earplugs. I know I should, but it's simply not the same. I've said it before and I'll say it again...it's like fucking with a rubber.

They say it's actually the cymbals that cause the damage. I guess the frequency they're at is what does it.

The thing that kills me more than anything is the snare. The Cymbals definitely contribute but the snare just flat out destroys me so more than not, Ill wear something in the ear thats on the side of the drummer and Im ok..

The snare is probably the most damaging....

 

[kannibul]

...To be honest, the biggest volume drivers are guitarists. We love the sound of our amps turned up, which makes everyone louder...

My experience is different. I've been at rehearsal or on stage MANY times where I thought my volume was loud, only to realize it wasn't when the drummer started playing. As a matter-of-fact, I'd say that happens every single time I've ever rehearsed or played live with a band.

I always get it to where I think I'm plenty loud enough, but I'm not when the drums kick in.

I guess I'm the oddity then - I've tried to get the guys to turn down so I don't have to play so hard, and we can actually talk to each other through the songs we're learning, rather than guess and hope for the best...lol

 

[Gainzilla]

I'm trying to find something that supports what I said about cymbals, but so far, I've only found this.

Musical instruments can generate considerable sound and thus can also cause hearing loss. The most damaging type of sound is in the high-frequencies.

http://www.american-hearing.org/disorde ... #frequency

Theres something about the crack of the snare that goes right through me. I cant say if the cymbals are doing damage that I cant/dont notice but nothing hurts my ears more consistently than hard snare hits.

The most painful show that I ever went to was The Vinnie Vincent Invasion when they toured in support of their first album. VV's Marhsalls has the worst Ice pick attack that I have ever heard from an amp and it was so loud/bad that I must have stuffed half of the bars supply of napkins in my ears. Ive seen Trower, Led Zep( and they were LOUD!!!) in the early days and nothing was more painful than that VVI show...

 

[Gainzilla]

My experience is different. I've been at rehearsal or on stage MANY times where I thought my volume was loud, only to realize it wasn't when the drummer started playing. As a matter-of-fact, I'd say that happens every single time I've ever rehearsed or played live with a band.

I always get it to where I think I'm plenty loud enough, but I'm not when the drums kick in.

Absolutely the same here!!!

 

[Jakem]

Sorry to hear that, man. I have tinnitus in my left ear which is irritating. It isn't very loud sounding but for example I can't hear these quiet background noises, during night time, in the apartment building where I live nor can I hear the sound of quietly ticking clock with that ear neither. Like I said it isn't that bad but it's irritating.

 

[philb]

My experience is different. I've been at rehearsal or on stage MANY times where I thought my volume was loud, only to realize it wasn't when the drummer started playing. As a matter-of-fact, I'd say that happens every single time I've ever rehearsed or played live with a band.

I always get it to where I think I'm plenty loud enough, but I'm not when the drums kick in.

Absolutely the same here!!!

Same here. it always surprises me that the amp volume is so low compared to a drum kit.

 

[Jakem]

My experience is different. I've been at rehearsal or on stage MANY times where I thought my volume was loud, only to realize it wasn't when the drummer started playing. As a matter-of-fact, I'd say that happens every single time I've ever rehearsed or played live with a band.

I always get it to where I think I'm plenty loud enough, but I'm not when the drums kick in.

Absolutely the same here!!!

Same here. it always surprises me that the amp volume is so low compared to a drum kit.

+1

Drums, especially snare, are so sharp, piercing and loud sounding that they're the worst for, at least, my ears. Snare isn't like guitar that it comes thru non-stop but it's like BANG pause BANG pause BANG and that isn't good neither. Don't know if the "parts" inside your ear get partly relaxed during those pauses and when the new snare hit comes it's bad... Dunno.

 

[OneArmedScissor]

A drummer who is a musician is capable of playing with dynamics, he can play less loudly when required to do so. If he cannot, he is not a musician but a neanderthal, and must be replaced. Of course rock drums are loud, but a good drummer can play at a volume that does not cause hearing damage to the people on stage. My solution is to not play with people that don't understand dynamics. I wouldn't play with a guitar player or bass player who always kept their amp dimed, why would I play with a drummer who always plays at full volume? Not only is it bad for my ears, it just doesn't help the music when the drummer is incapable of dynamics. Life is too short to play with mediocre drummers.

I love how you make these elaborate posts just to prove you are a clueless tard.

Go try playing drums. Have fun tapping that crash cymbal and using it like some sort of broken ride instead of making it sound out.

 

[Odin]

A drummer who is a musician is capable of playing with dynamics, he can play less loudly when required to do so. If he cannot, he is not a musician but a neanderthal, and must be replaced. Of course rock drums are loud, but a good drummer can play at a volume that does not cause hearing damage to the people on stage. My solution is to not play with people that don't understand dynamics. I wouldn't play with a guitar player or bass player who always kept their amp dimed, why would I play with a drummer who always plays at full volume? Not only is it bad for my ears, it just doesn't help the music when the drummer is incapable of dynamics. Life is too short to play with mediocre drummers.

I love how you make these elaborate posts just to prove you are a clueless tard.

Go try playing drums. Have fun tapping that crash cymbal and using it like some sort of broken ride instead of making it sound out.

I can play drums (poorly) but I don't claim to be a good drummer nor do I claim to be able to play drums with good dynamics. That's why I hire good drummers. The band I have played with since 1999 has had several drummers, and the good ones were all capable of playing at a level that didn't cause hearing damage without lacking energy or precision.

Your post proves that you haven't played with a pro level drummer and are apparently clueless when it comes to ther capabilities of a really good drummer.

Again, and I've said this countless times in this thread, I'm not talking about playing "library quiet", I'm talking about playing at a level that doesn't require fellow band members to wear earplug to prevent hearing damage.

If you truly believe that a rock drummer must play at a volume that creates a permanent medical disability for everyone on stage who doesn't wear ear plugs then you're either (a) an idiot or (b) ignorant of the capabilities of a good drummer. Which is it?

 

[Copperhead]

The snare is probably the most damaging....

Cymbals...

I agree. I like to set up on the snare side away from the crashes.

 

[offa]

I hate it when I find my ears ringing wildly after a gig in bed.. sometimes it takes a few days to go too - even a good gig is not worth hearing loss IMO. I'll take my hearing any day.

 

[OneArmedScissor]

Your post proves that you haven't played with a pro level drummer and are apparently clueless when it comes to ther capabilities of a really good drummer.

That's quite a clever cop out. Definitely explains how some cymbals have to be hit hard just to make them sound out, due to their design. It's no different than some amps having to be turned up all the way to make them produce a certain sound. I guess you have no talent or understanding of guitar if you own one of those amps and like how it sounds.

 

[duodecim]

[...] it just doesn't help the music when the drummer is incapable of dynamics. Life is too short to play with mediocre drummers.

Eh? Surely you must not be playing blackened death metal with a double bass drum doing blast beats next to you.

Telling a drummer to play as softly as possible is like asking a guitar player to pick his strings as lightly as he can. It's the opposite of dynamics... and who wants to play that way? Maybe for jazz... But in heavier types of music it's just not feasible.

Drums are loud.

Unless you have those cheesy '80s electronic drum pads I suppose... Doof... Doof doof...

 

[Odin]

If you truly believe that a rock drummer must play at a volume that creates a permanent medical disability for everyone on stage who doesn't wear ear plugs then you're either (a) an idiot or (b) ignorant of the capabilities of a good drummer. Which is it?

You should watch drummers like Tommy Lee, Alex Van Halen, etc... You'll see nothing but loud banging kickass drumming. Dynamics aren't even a part of their style. Actually, Peart who is arguably the best drummer in rock, bangs the shit out of his drumms 99% of the time.

Surely you're not suggesting those drummers aren't good?

I'm not saying that they aren't good, or even great, drummers. You see them playing on arena stages. They don't need to play rock and roll with dynamics on an arena stage. But if they weren't arena rock stars and they were playing on small stages I'm pretty sure that Neil Peart could play with less volume than he does in MSG. He just doesn't need to when he's in MSG.

Tommy Lee isn't a great drummer, he's a solid rock druymmer who has a somewhat unique style, but put him up against a truly great drummer and he would sound like an average drummer.

Alex ban Halen is almost completely deaf, so he's a bad example in this discussion.

I've seen Neil Peart play (in an arena) a drum solo with dynamics that would work in a small club, so I know that he can kick ass at moderate volumes.

We aren't talking about guys playing in arenas, we're talking hearing loss from loud drummers on small stages. It's unnecessary and can be solved if the drummer is skilled. You don't think schooled drummers could earn a degree playing like Alex Van Halen do you?

Our drummer is a degreed jazz major who plays loud rock with us but can play at a whisper volume when he's playing with a jazz trio. It's skill that allows that. He had to practice his rudiments and timing at low volumes and build that skill set for use in all gig situations to earn a degree in performance. He can rock loud when he wants to, but if the gig calls for quiet he can do that as well. We've landed high class venue gigs or private events where the client or the room required a controlled volume and we were able to be successful in that area because we can adapt.

Of course I don't like turning my amp way down and putting a plexi shield in front of it, but if the gig calls for it I do so. And we never play at a volume that is uncomfortable or causes ringing ears. That's what they make big PA systems for. Too many bands substiture volume for energy or talent. Loud doesn't always equal better, and uncomfortably loud almost always means low to non paying gigs. Professional bands are generally capable of playing at a level appropriate for the venue without damaging anyone's hearing.

 

[Odin]

Your post proves that you haven't played with a pro level drummer and are apparently clueless when it comes to ther capabilities of a really good drummer.

That's quite a clever cop out. Definitely explains how some cymbals have to be hit hard just to make them sound out, due to their design. It's no different than some amps having to be turned up all the way to make them produce a certain sound. I guess you have no talent or understanding of guitar if you own one of those amps and like how it sounds.

I agree, and some tools are wrong for some jobs. A non-master plexi that needs to be dimed to get the sound you want is the wrong tool for the job when you're playing on small stages to a room of 100 people. But it might be the perfect tool for an outdoor festival gig on a huge stage. When you are a professional musician you must be able to adapt, and sometimes that means different gear and sometimes it means different techniques. Unless your band always plays gigs with no limitations on volume, and unless the entire band wants to wear hearing protection at all times, then playing loud enough to cause hearing damage is just plain stupid.

 

[Stratboy151]

Sorry to hear that Keith (n pun intended lol!)

Im a firm believer in using ear plugs and now that I joined another band I will be going to get the molds done ASAP! I haven't had my hearing tested but Im sure that there will find some damage/loss. Another thing to keep away from is headphones or in ears monitors. They are more harmfull to your hearing then you would think.

i have to disagree with you ralph, we are using the in ears and when i take them out during a song we are WAAAAAAYYYY louder than the level of the in ears. its blocking out all that volume and giving you a more comfortable level of volume in your ears.

 

[Marc Roy]

I sympathize with anyone who's gotten hearing loss. I'm sure my ears took it pretty good about 10 years ago. Playing in a band which gigged about 3 weekends a month, with 2-3 rehearsals a week (at gig volumes nonetheless - not the brightest idea). I haven't played a gig in about 8 years now, and my ears have really appreciated the break. I'm definitely thinking of looking for a band again, but I've really learned to turn the volume down a bit. Finding people who think the same way is tough though.

 

[Odin]

I'm not saying that they aren't good, or even great, drummers. You see them playing on arena stages. They don't need to play rock and roll with dynamics on an arena stage. But if they weren't arena rock stars and they were playing on small stages I'm pretty sure that Neil Peart could play with less volume than he does in MSG. He just doesn't need to when he's in MSG.

Tommy Lee isn't a great drummer, he's a solid rock druymmer who has a somewhat unique style, but put him up against a truly great drummer and he would sound like an average drummer.

Alex ban Halen is almost completely deaf, so he's a bad example in this discussion.

I've seen Neil Peart play (in an arena) a drum solo with dynamics that would work in a small club, so I know that he can kick ass at moderate volumes.

We aren't talking about guys playing in arenas, we're talking hearing loss from loud drummers on small stages. It's unnecessary and can be solved if the drummer is skilled. You don't think schooled drummers could earn a degree playing like Alex Van Halen do you?

Our drummer is a degreed jazz major who plays loud rock with us but can play at a whisper volume when he's playing with a jazz trio. It's skill that allows that. He had to practice his rudiments and timing at low volumes and build that skill set for use in all gig situations to earn a degree in performance. He can rock loud when he wants to, but if the gig calls for quiet he can do that as well. We've landed high class venue gigs or private events where the client or the room required a controlled volume and we were able to be successful in that area because we can adapt.

Of course I don't like turning my amp way down and putting a plexi shield in front of it, but if the gig calls for it I do so. And we never play at a volume that is uncomfortable or causes ringing ears. That's what they make big PA systems for. Too many bands substiture volume for energy or talent. Loud doesn't always equal better, and uncomfortably loud almost always means low to non paying gigs. Professional bands are generally capable of playing at a level appropriate for the venue without damaging anyone's hearing.

Peart plays in Rush, not MSG, but no biggy.

I said how I feel already, so I don't really have anything else to add.

Chris

MSG is for Madison Square Garden not Michael Schenker Group