THE FRACTAL DEBACLE

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ventura
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crankyrayhanky":kwyab8yf said:
:confused:
You shop for a product, make a purchase, and the next day a better version comes out...nothing sinister from the seller, that's just bad timing for the buyer. The fact that forum people and email reps didn't give you a heads up, well they are so low on the totem pole they may not even know the timeline of the creative development team. Nor should they, they are in sales, meaning sell today.


You are probably correct, I doubt the secret was kept with malicious intent. Bad timing, true.

What about the lies?

There are like three or four people at fractal. Not much of a totem pole. They all knew exactly what was going on.
 
ttosh":1q5g6lre said:
moltenmetalburn":1q5g6lre said:
RedRider":1q5g6lre said:
moltenmetalburn":1q5g6lre said:
I don't understand why the majority of those who have no dog in this fight have basically said:

Technology changes , big deal thats how it goes, stop bitching.

Or

Your axe 1 doesn't suck now , so just keep it.

The thing is all of you have missed the point entirely. I have not heard anyone complaining about anything other than not being told it was coming at all, and the repercussions of that fact.

in fact many have quoted posts at the fractal forum that could be called blatant lies stating otherwise. I was lied to in person. I asked if i should wait for axe 2 instead of buying an obsolete product. I was told that a new axe wouldn't be for a very long time less than a year ago. 11 months is not a very long Time in my book.

Ive read people comparing the situation to apple, motor vehicles and computers. Not one of them has admitted that apple, car manufacturers, and new computer tech, are ALL mentioned before the release date. Apple has press conferences, autos have coming soon ads and commercials, even all the new computer hardware if you know where to look. For example we already know a new tigersharc is on its way.

The singular point for me was that if the company had been honest about its intentions many customers could have avoided being screwed, particularly customers like me who bought days or weeks before the announcement. I just wanted the opportunity to choose to wait for the new tech or be satisfied with the old, either way I would have the option.

Im well aware that good business practice = unethical business practice.

Hmm, a tangent but that just brought Steinbeck to mind:

"It has always seemed strange to me... the things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling, are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest, are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second."

Also the fact was that the correspondence between fractal and I about returning my unit, was downright short and nasty only, on their part. The tone changed only after they offered me an option and I accepted. It was as if they were hoping they could dissuade me with the 10 percent restocking fee that I had accepted as a loss and then were pissed it wasn't enough to make me go away. I could be totally wrong but it sure felt that way. They even forced my hand to ship them the unit overnight. After i waited 48 hours for a first response and then an additional 24 for an rma number. I was then told if the item didn't arrive the next day they would reject the return as the needed to erase my credit card info for security purposes. lame ass bs. If were currently working out a return together save my f'n cc number!

Not sure who was on the other end of each of my emails but someone at fractal IS a dick .


I am happy that I was able to return it and move on to the new tech. In that respect i was done a favor, which i do wholeheartedly appreciate. I did not get the stock " your past the return dater, sorry" after all i was a few days past the return date.

In the end though I still feel a little bent over, I spent about $450 to test an axe for a little more than two weeks and sent a totally mint unit back to them, still had the f'n plastic on it. Its win win for fractal. Theyll sell it asap, and wind up having made full profit on an old piece of tech even after it is obsolete. Had they mentioned the release it would have personally saved me $500. Thanks fractal, I hope you enjoyed the lobster dinner and beer on the night of the release, it was on me...

If you had the unit for longer than the trial period (I wanna say it was 15 days or something like that, where you could send the unit back for a refund) you shouldnt have gotten jack shit back. A return policy is a return policy.

And a year???? DUde a year is an ETERNITY in electronic parts....your freekin crazy. If he announced a new one was in the works he would not have sold another unit for 12 months and probably would have been put out of business...like I said in another post on another forum....JUST FYI, all you guys buying an Axe 2, the Axe 3 is already in the works, don't know when it will be complete but you better plan your selling strategy now so you cant say you werent warned!!!

I stated in my post that they had done me a favor and i appreciated it. Glad to know you think I didn't deserve it.

I disagree with you about the time frame. I did understand that the axe had been around for 4 years which is a very long time for a computer to be current . That is the reason i asked about a new model, to avoid the situation I wound up in anyway. 11 months is not a very long time, especially when standing in front of a person and asking them if you should buy now or wait for the new tech. They then assure you it will be a long time and nothing is even in the works. Guess what! with the admitted three years of r and d that went into the axe 2 they had already been working on it for at least two years at that point, it was 2/3rds of the way complete yet told me "nothing was in the works". Then as referenced from the fractal forum they stated seven months ago again, "nothing in the works".

Would you argue that its good business to deceive your customers in order to make more money, am I crazy because I find this lying unacceptable or am I asking for nothing more that honesty which the last time I checked was a desired personalty trait for all people.

I do understand computer gear value changes rapidly, i have built tons of computers. And no i am not crazy in fact quite the opposite.

How about addressing my main point which is that they kept the release a secret and subsequently screwed some customers which pretty much no one else does?

My complaints are very specific to my situation and should not be lumped in with the bulk of people whining they bought an axe fx two years ago and now it already obsolete, I understand electronic obsolescence quite well, it's the lying and also the nasty treatment that has me most upset.

I understand what you are saying, but what is a business supposed to do when they are probably in the R&D phase? Based on all amp builders and Fractal with their foot controller we all know estimating a time of release is not easy, hell they did the countdown and have no products to ship yet. So do they tell you 11 months ago to wait? Do they tell that to everyone? If they did the Axe FX II would not have been created because they would have to close doors.

Do they do things a bit different? Yes, the countdown was a kick in the nuts and a small bit of warning like you see in most tech circles would be nice.

However 11 months is a long time and in no way was it unethical to tell you anything different almost a year ago. At that time they probably did not know when it would go live and they probably had quite a few pending development ideas and projects going on.

I see your points well, it is a tricky situation and no one side of the argument is completely right or wrong. Some more food for thought for me. I do think they just handled it poorly and hopefully they learn a bit before the release of axe 3.

As for the lying idunno man I try to live differently and it irks me... He should have said" i don't know" instead of" no" in my opinion , but that just like my opinion man, lol.
 
Software announcements are much different from hardware announcements. You typically have an upgrade path with software if your hardware will support it. With hardware, it's going to go down in price as soon as higher spec'd machines come out. Which is what Apple does with their old tech.

Going with Apple, it's very much a similar situation with what Fractal did. They announce an event but generally people don't know what they are going to announce (unless you are a [rational] fanboy like me). Apple is more generous about technology upgrades than most companies. However, do you think that the people that got iPads/iPods/iPhones two weeks+ prior to the announcement were able to return their products for newer models? Nope. This situation is EXACTLY the same.

I actually told my coworker to hold off on buying an iPhone 3G right before the 3GS was to be announced. It was a week or so prior to their summer event. He went ahead and fucked himself into a two year contract on old technology.

That being said, I think there might be some common sense missing from people who are upset about this in the first place. If you know that something is going to be announced then keep your finger off the trigger. While there may be some ethical concerns with the Fractals lying about a new AxeFx, I don't think it's their obligation to tell anyone the truth. And unless the owner of such company was my best friend and could trust me with a huge secret like this, I wouldn't expect the manufacturer to give me a straight answer. Just fucking wait!!

All this aside, I'd certainly be interested in going with an AxeFX II for a live rig. I just need to hear one in person.
 
I got to try an Axe-Fx and really don't get it?? Much prefer my antiquated JMP-1 and Alesis quadraverb but...Thats probably why I don't get it??? :D
 
Nope. That's not true at all. Why can't you wait a month if you know an announcement is being made? Waiting != waiting indefinitely.
 
kurtsstuff":1244mw4e said:
I got to try an Axe-Fx and really don't get it?? Much prefer my antiquated JMP-1 and Alesis quadraverb but...Thats probably why I don't get it??? :D

Well duh,lol its those of us who love it that are complaining! :lol: :LOL:

What are you doing reading this, go play your jmp and smile! :rock:
 
moltenmetalburn":6x4lr14v said:
crankyrayhanky":6x4lr14v said:
:confused:
You shop for a product, make a purchase, and the next day a better version comes out...nothing sinister from the seller, that's just bad timing for the buyer. The fact that forum people and email reps didn't give you a heads up, well they are so low on the totem pole they may not even know the timeline of the creative development team. Nor should they, they are in sales, meaning sell today.


You are probably correct, I doubt the secret was kept with malicious intent. Bad timing, true.

What about the lies?

There are like three or four people at fractal. Not much of a totem pole. They all knew exactly what was going on.

I see...looks like you've been screwed then. Only recourse I see is to not buy the product. 2200 can get you huge choices in gear
 
who-give-a-fuck.jpg
 
I'm a long-time Fractal user. Not a moderator, but I thought I'd post my view here since Ventura was posting his there. Looks like many here will never even consider an axe-fx because nothing's better than the naked amp. I can understand that. I paid the bills with tube rigs for years but needed more versatility and consistent feel at different volumes so I went axe-fx and haven't looked back. Sold my Ultra during countdown and have been back to my tube rig. The naked cab vibe has been fun, but I'm looking forward to gigging with a full tonal library.

Onto my rebuttal:

The Ultra lost hundreds in value overnight and users are pissed and rightly so. I read through quite a few complaints and never felt the need to say anything. Who could blame them? A big countdown w/ zero info on the new gear, and a limp-dick, post-countdown vacuum without a new product shipping amid a huge selloff in axe-fx's (38 were on ebay today).

But with users talking about suing Fractal, endless posts and multiple threads laying the blame at Cliffs feet for the overnight loss in the value of their Ultras, I've come with my rebuttal.

Those complaining have yet to admit they did not know or did not consider the following facts when buying their Ultras in 2011:
---------------------------------------

Cliff has never released a lesser version of his hardware

He outgrew the standard in ONE year

Based on that, he most likely outgrew the Ultra in less than TWO

Historically, Cliff has been hell-bent on nailing the math of amps, something which doesn't easily squeeze into hardware, particularly old hardware

Outside of getting the MFC off the ground, he spends all his time coding for the Axe-FX (not the MFC, Axe-edit, or Atomic)

It's been THREE years since the Ultra was announced

So odds are he moved beyond the capabilities of the Ultra

Firmware updates went from flood to trickle, supporting Ultra was full, or new hardware, or both

--------------------------------------------------------
Those alone should've made new Ultra buyers pause, but it didn't.
Here's more to consider:
--------------------------------------------------------

Every time Cliff announced future hardware, people complained and even lambasted Fractal over production delays

So Fractal stopped talking about future hardware

If you're not going to talk about future hardware before it's released, you don't -- even if people call asking about it

-------------------------------------------------------
Based on that, and considering current axe-fx hardware was 3 years old, getting info on a future product most likely wasn't gonna happen
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
So, if you didn't think about any of that before you bought the Ultra, did it pop into your head when everyone started talking about the countdown?
-----------------------------------------------------

Let's think it through anyway and look at two consequences:

---------------------------------------------------

Announcing/talking about future products backfired, so talk of future products ceased, even when asked

Instead a countdown was created

If the countdown was for something big, and all the NEWEST hardware was "non-Cliff" hardware......

and the Cliff-specific hardware was the OLDEST hardware at 3 years old (Ultra)..........

and odds were Cliff had OUTGROWN that hardware........

and Fractal created a 10-day LEAD to let the world know something was coming......

Then -- despite how crazy it seemed, an Ultra-killer could no longer be dismissed, and the forum began talking about it

At that point, selling during countdown would've become a SERIOUS consideration

Consequences:

But what if it wasn't an Ultra-killer and you sold during countdown? At worst you'd be axe-less but values would stay the same, Fractal would re-supply, and you'd just buy another

However....if it WAS an Ultra-killer, and you didn't sell yours during the countdown, then...not only would yours instantly lose value, it would be hard to sell quickly after the fact. And if you had to sell it to get the axe-fx II then you'd either take a huge loss now or a smaller loss after the smoke cleared...god knows how long that'd take!

------------------------------------------------

If you had all that info above at the moment of truth, which choice would you pick?

If you had HALF that info above and decided to sit on the sidelines with your new Ultra, who you gonna blame?

Fractal for not pre-announcing a future product?
Fractal for telling you there's NOT a future product? (not the best approach if true)
Fractal for running down inventory?
Fractal for running down inventory without telling people something is coming to replace it?
Fractal for not offering a full refund on B-stock which I believe was non-refundable in the first place?
Fractal for not creating a trade-in program?
Fractal for not offering a compensation to recent buyers who's return window just closed?

Or yourself for not thinking this s**t through?

If you simply didn't know the info listed above, you have all the right in the world to freak out and be pissed. But at least try to remember how much Fractal's competition short-changes their customers before you go after Fractal with threats, etc.

I remain faithful to Fractal not because they're perfect, far from it. I remain faithful because IMO, no company has a better modeling product -- and the one's that try to don't have Fractal's personal response to their customers.

Cliff isn't a kid-gloves kind of guy -- he doesn't suffer fools. But he and his Fractal crew BUST THEIR ASSES to listen and deliver based on their customers' needs and feedback.

How much do I respect that? My sig says it all.
 
moltenmetalburn":398jroda said:
kurtsstuff":398jroda said:
I got to try an Axe-Fx and really don't get it?? Much prefer my antiquated JMP-1 and Alesis quadraverb but...Thats probably why I don't get it??? :D

Well duh,lol its those of us who love it that are complaining! :lol: :LOL:

What are you doing reading this, go play your jmp and smile! :rock:

Well..it's like when you come across a car wreck...You don't wanna look but....ya just gotta!!! :lol: :LOL:
 
Couple things:

1.) When you're dealing with technology, obsolescence is the norm. Call me crazy but most everyone understands that when you buy a computer, LCD/LED tv, cell phone, car, etc.....it will be 'obsolete' in 6 months and worth about 1/3 of what you paid for it. We all expect this. We all understand and, for the most part, accept it.

2.) The Axe-FX has been around for years. On average, it seemed that they held 90-95% of their value on the used market.....4-5 years after their release. They regularly provided free upgrades/improvements to their firmware and supported the product.

3.) When I spend $$$ on a product, particularly $2000 on something, my expectations are that the manufacturer offers me warranty on that product and backs it up. I don't expect them to provide unlimited, free, regular updates to the product. I don't expect them to guarantee that my product will hold 90-95% of its new value on the used market. I certainly don't expect them to guarantee that they won't progress and advance their product line technology. I think some people have different expectations of the manufacturer than I do when they buy products.

My point is, Fractal is in the technology business. They sell technology. Obsolescence is built into their business. People just need to accept this. The fact that Fractal continued to provide regular, free firmware updates seems to have spoiled many of the users. Over the last 4+ years I think we've seen an anomaly with used value of the Axe. It was a perfect example of supply vs demand and maintaining product value.....but to get that kind of performance out of a product steeped in technology is rare. Again, this fact seemed to spoil many people.....the thought being that it's held its value this long, it should continue to hold its value indefinitely. That just isn't the case and thinking so has no basis in economic reality. Finally, spending a substantial amount of $$$ on a product really doesn't entitle you to anything other than the product you purchased. I really don't understand some people's sense of entitlement in this whole situation (I.E. I just bought an Ultra for $2000 and you released a new product?!?!? I should get that instead. Wait....what?)

I think the only thing Fractal should have done differently was manage the transition better. Announce a new product, give a release date and manage the transition the best you can. I think there will be some learnings they'll take away from this for future product releases. But I think those that are so angry/upset about this change, needs to check themselves. Fractal has no obligations other than to deliver the product you purchased, period.

IMHO of course.
 
@Ventura the hypocrite: lurved the unhinged, non sequitur-laden rant at JM yesterday... 'twas just what the doctors ordered.

A tip on upper-case subject lines... I feel we can fluff your prima donna quotient still higher. Ex FA forumite, Clark Kent (whose overweening sense of self-importance rivals your own,) was in the habit of prepending his moniker. Behold...

"VENTURA: L@@K AT ME"

Back at the symposium, the consensus has it that your discovery of a leaderless flock of disgruntled owners triggered a messiah complex.

/tweaking Ventura's nose
 
robertkoa":13gyqkaf said:
Well- I appreciate your honesty on this.

Even though this is a complaint thread - I'm wondering if your tube preamps sound great when recorded using the Axe Fx Cab Impulses ?

I like the idea of having great EFX AND great Cab IRs in a hardware, non computer box for recording and the Axe 1 or Axe 2 is still cheaper than Torpedo ( although Torpedo does amp loading etc. )- so wonder what you think about that type of use. Or should I start a new thread for that?


No I did not try it in the recording realm. I did compare the Torpedo and Axe FRFR. I liked the Torpedo more for the IRs that were in "in the box". But I never tried aftermarket IRs which might have been a simple solution for what I didn't like in the Axe. And now there are 50 user slots and a massively upgraded IR system in the Axe II. So, it might be a perfect solution now.

I personally like how a 2290 or PCM colors my tone. I didn't find that in the Axe. It can be too perfect for fx. Just like when people buy equipment to make digital sound like that less than perfect audio. :lol: :LOL: Some flaws add to tone in a good way, so making everything perfect isn't always a good thing for some. Some may love that though. Depends on your application.
 
solo-act":pujt29e9 said:
Zer0th":pujt29e9 said:
@Ventura the hypocrite.....Ex FA forumite, Clark Kent....Behold...
Ventura is Clark Kent from FA forum?
I very much doubt it. I was simply suggesting that V adopt Superman's practice of prepending his handle to the subject line.
 
Zer0th":2t3xhupa said:
@Ventura the hypocrite: lurved the unhinged, non sequitur-laden rant at JM yesterday... 'twas just what the doctors ordered.

A tip on upper-case subject lines... I feel we can fluff your prima donna quotient still higher. Ex FA forumite, Clark Kent (whose overweening sense of self-importance rivals your own,) was in the habit of prepending his moniker. Behold...

"VENTURA: L@@K AT ME"

Back at the symposium, the consensus has it that your discovery of a leaderless flock of disgruntled owners triggered a messiah complex.

/tweaking Ventura's nose
Trust me, I got better uses for you sweetheart :D

V.
 
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