The Pickup Seymour Wound For Van halen

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nitro":17zbi0pu said:
Rocksoff,if you had to buy a amp today to achieve the first van halen album sound which would it be.
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Well, someone would at least have to start at the beginning and get to know WTF EVH was actually using.

The LIVE (not studio) background is below.

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EVH's live gear over the years.

First was his Bandmaster head used at Gazzari's (there is a photo of EVH using the Bandmaster head with the Ibanez Destroyer at a club).

Next was an array of Marshall's including his so called main Marshall and also his wooden Marshall.

These Marshall's were never 100 watts, as EVH used the variac trick he stumbled on to lower the voltage and therefore the watts, and EVH's Marshall's were putting out below 50 watts in reality and he could just use one 4x12 cab easily (greenbacks/ maybe blackbacks).

A Vox AC-50 (I think) appears in one photo but not any other photos and apparently it was a borrowed backup.

EVH always had backup everything, amps and phase's and Echoplexes and for the 1978 World tour he was running 2 main separate amp rigs that each had their own Echoplex and one amp rig had the Univox delay patched into it for Eruption and he used the other amp rig for the main song set list, so if one amp rig blew up then he could switch pretty quickly (with some roadie help) to the other amp rig, so in effect he had a whole backup amp rig.

But, he also had a 3rd amp rig on standby just in case the other two amp rigs blew up.

Each amp rig was made up of 3 Marshall heads and all 3 heads were daisy chained together.

EVH retired his so called Main Marshall from his live rig around mid 1978 because it got lost on a plane for a while and he didn't want to lose it again in transit.

So any live stuff after mid 1978 doesn't have his so called Main Marshall in the sound and even before that his so called Main Marshall was in a block of 3 daisy chained amps in one amp rig and it wasn't the total sound and there was also the other amp rig as well that were 3 different daisy chained Marshall heads again.

So any dudes raving about EVH's live 1978 tone are just raving on about a collection of Marshall heads that EVH was using and it wasn't just his so called Main Marshall at all.

He also was using some combo Celestion/JBL cabinets live.

On EVH's pedal board was a Phase and a Flanger and a MXR 6 band EQ (changed to a 10 band Boss EQ mid 1978 World Tour) and some boxes with switches labelled box 1 etc.

The Phase and Flanger are obvious in what they do, but the EQ is not that obvious in what it was used for.

The EQ on EVH's pedalboard was used for the Univox delay and when EVH ditched the Univox, the pedalboard EQ and the switching boxes got ditched as well.

Before EVH went wireless he was using EQ's to make up for cable loss and these EQ's were not on his pedalboard but were at the end of long cable runs near the Echoplex's and amp inputs.

EVH eventually ditched the Echoplex's and went to other effects and the 1979 tour amp rig had a built in wireless system (Schaffer-Vega Diversity System) and ditched all of the MXR EQ's not long after.

EVH started using a live slaving system around 1984/1985 for live work (not studio work) and there are no Echoplexes or MXR EQ's involved by then.

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So, after all of that there is the studio,

There are the Gene Simmons demos from around mid 1976 which have a mix of EVH's gear and some overdubs that were probably not done on EVH's gear and that's all controlled by Gene Simmons and he produced it the way that he wanted and so the whole thing sounds a certain way.

Then there are the Ted Templeman Donn Landee Warner Brother's demos from around mid 1977 and it's a variaced Marshall on them, and EVH and Alex didn't like how the demos sounded at all.

Then there is VH1 from the end of August 1977 and it's much more produced than the Warner Brothers demos but the low end isn't that great and EVH and Alex and even Ted Templeman have said they were not that happy with the low end.

Who knows what amp(s) EVH used on VH1.

There is a quote in this thread from Ted Templeman saying EVH wanted to use Ronnie's amp (Bandmaster 3x10).
 
Then there are the pickups and stock PAF's don't come into it much at all because EVH was using rewinds and Mighty Mites (Super Distortion clones).

One of the things that confuses some players is overdriving the Marshall Plexi circuit.

Some Marshall's and their circuits/parts don't overdrive to VH levels with just a PAF pickup and the Marshall set to 10 for all of the knobs.

Some other Marshall's and especially the 68 Marshall circuit/parts will probably overdrive more than some other Marshall's but they probably still need something more IMO to take them into VH1 territory.

Mike Soldano had EVH's main Marshall and he just said that it was a regular sort of Marshall up at 10 with more volume than overdrive (typical for a lot of Marshall), so where is the VH overdrive coming from, well there are the pickups.

As EVH said in 1978, he has to get the pickups rewound (Seymour rewinds) otherwise they don't sound right and he even had rewound pickups in his Les Paul.

The Seymour 1979 EVH pickup was a Custom and Seymour knew what EVH was using as he did the rewinds.

So, the VH1 amp might not even be a Marshall and so if someone is trying for that tone then a Bandmaster 3x10 might be fun to play around with and put EVH's front end gear in front of it (rewound pickup/Mighty Mite, Phase and Echoplex EP3 from 1976/77) and also try the same EVH front end gear in front of a 1968 Variaced Plexi set with everything on 10 and one cabinet of greenbacks.

EVH was playing through Laney's and other amps around mid 1978 for a while because a lot of his live rig went missing on a flight and it still sounded like EVH and VH and no one cared about his so called main Marshall, so there is more to it than just gear as EVH says himself in one of my posts above.
 
The reason why I went through EVH's live gear is because some are hearing things that just are not there.

The only reference to the main Marshall tone by itself for most people is only on VH1 (ignoring badly recorded club boots and the Warner Brothers demos which were unreleased back in 1978), if EVH used the main Marshall on VH1.

Any 1978/1979 live footage/boots has only bits of the main Marshall combined with other Marshall's early on in 1978, so if someone thinks that this is EVH's special Marshall tone then think again.

The MXR EQ's were used for the Univox and long cables and they are not an inbuilt item in EVH's tone and there are pictures of him playing the B&W Franky on the DOTG in 78 and bypassing the pedalboard EQ completely and it's only when EVH needs the Univox delay (Eruption) that the EQ is plugged in.

The pedalboard MXR EQ got ditched when the Univox delay got ditched (along with the Box 1 etc switches).

Rudy Leiren already told this stuff to Dave Friedman years ago and it's also backed up by photos of EVH's gear.

Some hear EQ's doing this and doing that and some hear his main Marshall when it's not even there and it's all just people hearing stuff with their imagination because they have seen Ed with a MXR EQ or heard about his main Marshall or whatever.

EVH didn't give much of a crap about any of it, just as long as he could get the job done ad he even got it done with Laneys, but he did have preferred guitars and amps but he went off them as well over time.
 
nitro":12hhcix1 said:
Rocksoff,if you had to buy a amp today to achieve the first van halen album sound which would it be.
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If you want the 1st VH sound get a Metroplex from George at Metropoulos. Or a 12000 '68 SL replica from him. Both get that sound. The '68 circuit was different and many today don't like it. It sounds and feels different in person than it does recorded. Most want a MUCH tighter power section and another gain stage to smooth it out. The Suhr SL68 gets it as well. I'm just loyal to George because he did it first, but John makes a killer product and has been in THE amp.

And Ed did use 12301 on VH1. Sheesh. It sounded bigger than it was because of the masterful engineering by Donn Landee who used the reverb/echo chamber at Sunset with some pre delay. I used to work for the band and Ed said DL made it sound like more than it was.

Get the Metro, put a Catalinbread Belle Epoch in front of it, the EMT plate emulator pedal they just released in the loop (more of a 1984 vs. VH1 reverb sound but it is still good) and you are there. Any A2 humbucker in the 9-10dc range (it helps if it is asymmetric but not necessary) will work, but if you want Jamie's Cryin' or Feel Your Love then the A8 offerings out there will get you close.

There is so much speculation out there about Ed and that tone but it isn't as complicated as the conspiracy theorists would have you believe.
 
The first album lacks bottom end IMO and it sounds like a heavy hitting pickup driving a standard 70s rig, like a ceramic Custom pickup right up near the strings would probably do it and that would drive a Plexi or a Bandmaster 3x10 with 6L6's for the output section into a 2.6 ohm 3 speaker load via a 4 ohm transformer (which breaks up earlier than a lot of other Fenders) into that sort of gain territory IMO.

The Echoplex is essential and it's just about on everything with a 300ms single repeat (double repeat for Ain't Talking about Love) and so is the Phase for solos.

Then there is all of the studio stuff and things start going pear shaped because no one can replicate that in a good way at all.

EVH and Alex thought the Warner Brothers demos were crap and that VH1 was better but still not that great and Ted says that the bottom end went missing, so tone is all in the mind dudes.

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TT:When I recording Van Halen's debut, my strategy was just to take the guitar and blow it up all over the face of the damn map, because I thought it was the most amazing thing I'd ever heard. In order to do that I had to sacrifice some of the bottom end.

"Alex and Donn got a lot closer on 1984 as well. “Drop Dead Legs” and “I’ll Wait” were more towards Al’s liking, as opposed to the first record.

I remember when Al and I went to Warner Bros. to pick up the cassettes of the very first 25-song demo tape we did for them in 1977.

We popped it into the player in my van and expected to hear Led Zeppelin coming out, but we were kind of appalled by what we heard. It just didn’t sound the way we wanted it to sound.

The first album sounds a little better, but it still wasn’t the way we imagined it should sound. It’s very unique sounding. I wouldn’t even know how to duplicate it, to tell you the truth."

"It still holds up today to a certain extent. It’s not in your face or all that heavy, but the songs are great. If you heard us live, we sounded different. We were much heavier, and that’s what Alex and I expected to hear on the record."
 
They didn't like the reverb. They wanted an Andy Johns sound which is why they went with him when they finally got the freedom to do so and weren't happy with what DL did with OU812.
 
Capulin Overdrive":c8qu01wg said:
Had to go read some threads, but appears people think VH1 was ceramic Mighty Mite and then the A8 Super 70?

Then VH II up to the Peavey guitars are A2 magnet PAF type.


So guess the Custom could work?
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You're probably thinking Custom Custom, which is a Custom with an a2 mag instead of ceramic.
 
Various Marshall amps demo.

They are using a -12db attenuator and a PAF based Reissue R9 Les Paul.

They sound just like stock Marshall's with a low gain pickup to me that is on loads of recordings and live stuff from the 60s and 70s.

They don't have EVH's VH1 gain/hair level IMO but the core is there.

Without some Ooooooooooooomph! from a hotter pickup (or pedal) it's just not there IMO.

The iso "Feel Your Love Tonight" clip is the Ibanez Destroyer (before he cut a chunk out of it) and it doesn't scream A2 or A5 to me and it sounds more ceramic to me and I'd guess that it's a higher output ceramic Mighty Mite.




 
Well, if you can find EVH with a distortion pedal you are better than me.

The only boosting thing I've seen him with is the MXR EQ and he didn't use it after he ditched the Univox delay but still managed to get his gain happening without it ie 1984 for instance.

The Phase boosts some frequencies but it isn't an overdrive type thing at all and the Echoplex has no real gain but it might alter some frequency strengths a bit.

The only thing I can think of is hotter pickups and that's why there was a 14K A2 in the Red Franky.

Even in the early days around 1973/74 there are photos of EVH rehearsing and the only thing he's got is a wah pedal and he also put in a humbucker into his P90 Goldtop Les Paul and maybe it was a PAF or maybe it was a Super Distortion as they were the main choices in 1973/74.
 
There are no photos of van halen when they recorded van halen 1(first album)so to say he didn't is not accurate,it definitely sounds like it just by my experiance with amps and listen to sounds in general.
 
He used an MXR Micro Amp pedal around the time of 1984...for what I don't know, but it was in his effects system.
 
1984 vs the 1978 sound is day and night.1978 first album sound is much more aggressive and distored then 1984 sound.
 
I agree, but it IS a clean boost...for those who say he never used an OD or boost pedal...he did, maybe much later, but he did. I think there's something going on with VHI, don't know what, but something has to explain the gain.
 
He was on record (I know his statements are suspect because he misled people about SO many things, but just the same) as saying he "hated the Fuzz box, real raspy kind of sound", and an MXR Distortion+ would qualify as raspy...go listen to Randy Rhoads...He also said he went for "total tube distortion", which makes me believe it's in the amps... my .02
 
Steve you laugh but it sure sounds like one pushing the front of the amp for VH1
 
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