VH4 or Herbert? Opinions wanted!

[FZRJunkie]

any of the three amps will do the fast palm mutting thing incredibly well....it's just up to the "tonal" characteristics of each amp that'll be the deal breaker. Are you more into the modern sounds? then Herbert's for you, are you more into a heavy mids, tight mean tone, then the Vh4 is your pal. Are you into a modern tone with a slight vintage vibe then the Einstein is your amp, feel me daug?

...on notions of warmth

+ me? standard, dropped D.

+ rhythm: I want a heavy distortion that has 5150-ish warmth, but has cut and bite. Dark but punchy. I'm afraid if use the overloaded phrase "tight but organic" folks might get the wrong idea.

+ lead: 5150-ish warm, fluid legato, but with beef. Not piercing.

Which single channel of which Diezel amp will naturally cover both the above rhythm and lead sounds the best without having to switch anything or play with any knobs? Before you say "just get a 5150" let me ask it another way: which channel of which Diezel amp can do the best 5150 impression while maybe improving on it a bit?

My guess is ... the Einensteinen - ja?

 

[Joeytpg]

hmmm the Einstein is not that ANGRY......

It's VERY heavy, but it's got a smoother gain structure.

The Vh4 will have all the balls and agression the 5150 has and MORE -BUT- it's NOT as saturated as the 5150.....the Vh4 is a weird amp, it's not really saturated but its VERY heavy. I think the one that will get you closer to that is the Herbert which is extremely heavy and more saturated than the Vh4. But Diezel amps are not really saturated amps.


but again, if you really like the 5150, get one and get it modded to loose some of that fizz

 

[BigR]

...on notions of warmth

+ me? standard, dropped D.

+ rhythm: I want a heavy distortion that has 5150-ish warmth, but has cut and bite. Dark but punchy. I'm afraid if use the overloaded phrase "tight but organic" folks might get the wrong idea.

+ lead: 5150-ish warm, fluid legato, but with beef. Not piercing.

Which single channel of which Diezel amp will naturally cover both the above rhythm and lead sounds the best without having to switch anything or play with any knobs? Before you say "just get a 5150" let me ask it another way: which channel of which Diezel amp can do the best 5150 impression while maybe improving on it a bit?

My guess is ... the Einensteinen - ja?

Been a while since I've played a 5150, but I'll give it a shot. I think the closest to copping a 5150 type tone is Ch 3 on the Herbert. I'd use a good bit of gain, dime the Presence, and roll off a good bit on the Deep knob. With my cabs (an Bogner Uberkab & a Bogner OS212) I'd use a good amount of treble & mids (maybe 1-2:00 tr, 2-3:00 mid) and keep the bass lower, around 9:00. Diezels by nature dark, and the Herbert will still have plenty of punch, even with the seep & bass rolled way back. Adding treble & bass, & especially presence should get it close to the type 'cut & bite' of the 5150, and give it a more saturated feel. Ch 2+ could also get close, but isn't, to me, quite as fluid & organic sounding as Ch 3. Ch 3 also feels more saturated than Ch 2, though, still not as saturated as a 5150.
As far as using one channel for rhythm and lead, with no adjustments at all, I dunno. Ideally I'd use 2+ for rhythm and 3 for leads, as 3 is more a bit more fluid. Or use a light overdrive in front of either channel for a little lead boost. Based on your criteria, though (unless you're looking for the EXACT same sound for rhythm and lead) it'd be hard, if not impossible, to get everything from a single channel, on any amp, without touching any knobs or switches.

 

[FZRJunkie]

but again, if you really like the 5150, get one and get it modded to loose some of that fizz

honestly, thru my Uberkab I don't notice a lot of fizz, at least not nearly as much as with other cabs. And I preferred my Peavey to my Uberschall after a month-long A/B, for it's thicker distortion, and in terms of less buzz and fizz. Yep. That's what I said.

Are Diezels fizz-less? buzz-less? You need *some* hair on it man - if I modded my PV to kill any "fizz" or "buzz" I strongly suspect it would not sound nearly as good. I love it stock for the most part, and I ain't changing it at the risk of fucking up the things it currently does so well. People knock the 5150 for it's buzz, but honestly, an Ecstasy red channel has more hair on it.

So are you saying the Diezel sound and the 5150 sound are mutually exclusive, no overlap?

 

[FZRJunkie]

Which single channel of which Diezel amp will naturally cover both the above rhythm and lead sounds the best without having to switch anything or play with any knobs?

it'd be hard, if not impossible, to get everything from a single channel, on any amp, without touching any knobs or switches.

with my PV I just play the rhythm parts and play the lead parts without stepping on anything or switching anything except maybe a flick of the pickup switch for a neck tone lead part. It's one of the many reasons I love that amp.

I like to blend rhythm and lead parts. Kinda limiting to have an amp where ya gotta switch channels or step on something every time you go from riff to lead fill and back. The PV sounds good for both. Cutting rhythm, warm sweet lead. If I step on something, it's the loop or the clean channel.

So I guess there's not too much overlap between the Ds and the PV. They are different animals, and that's okay. My wallet agrees it's okay. A local store has a Herb. I don't go within 10 miles of the place. I can't afford to like it.

 

[RedB4Black]

but again, if you really like the 5150, get one and get it modded to loose some of that fizz

honestly, thru my Uberkab I don't notice a lot of fizz, at least not nearly as much as with other cabs. And I preferred my Peavey to my Uberschall after a month-long A/B, for it's thicker distortion, and in terms of less buzz and fizz. Yep. That's what I said.

Are Diezels fizz-less? buzz-less? You need *some* hair on it man - if I modded my PV to kill any "fizz" or "buzz" I strongly suspect it would not sound nearly as good. I love it stock for the most part, and I ain't changing it at the risk of fucking up the things it currently does so well. People knock the 5150 for it's buzz, but honestly, an Ecstasy red channel has more hair on it.

So are you saying the Diezel sound and the 5150 sound are mutually exclusive, no overlap?

don't confuse saturation with fizz. the bogners have alot of saturation but maintain string definition. The 5150 fizzes and turns to mush. Here's an old rig pic BTW...

 

[TheMagicEight]

My friend's got a 6505 that he leaves at my house all the time. I like it a lot, but what I notice is that the gain is only usable for a little while. I think it's about noon on the gain knob that it fizzes out and turns to mush, but before that, it's pretty easy for me to see how someone would prefer the Peavey to about anything. With the Ecstasy, I notice the gain is a lot more usable - the advantage it's got over the Peavey if you want ridiculous amounts of saturation.

I like the Peaveys though! Don't understand why people bash them so much. Must be because they don't know how to set them up.

 

[FZRJunkie]

don't confuse saturation with fizz.

Yeah, I'm not. Wow.

The 5150 fizzes and turns to mush.

Not mine. Check yer guitars, or maybe you tune down to string-flop land or play differently than I do. Don't know what to tell ya. The Uber had the best lead tone I've known, but the PV comes very close -- but for metal riffage the PV has beaten everything I've brought home including VHT and Soldano. With two exceptions. A UL, which even had gorgeous cleans, too, I thought. But I could not get a lead tone that I liked from the UL or any other VHT to save my life. The other exception was a white chassis Ecstasy that I lost. Newer Ecstasys don't have the same mojo to me. That early model was lethality and beauty. Wish I had it (though it has blown up for the new owner 4 times!).

If I agreed with you I'd have something else instead. The PV keeps winning for me. It's my favorite distortion. I am not trying to sound like anybody else, though. I can do stacatto machine gun Pantera-like crap and jazz chord death metal chunk on my 6505+ and it never feels stiff and cold, always warm and comfortable and musical, even when I'm playing snappy alternate-picked technical metal. And the pre-gain knob gets kinda high at times. Pre 6 Post 3, Pre 7 Post 2, Pre 8 Post 1.

If you prefer stiffer and colder amps (and the PV can do that too with the Presence near max), that's cool, but the opposite doesn't have to mean fizzy and mushy. I would say cabs make a huge difference except I see in the pic that you used the same cab as me for both amps, just like I did. Which is why I say our differing experiences might be due to guitars, pups, tuning, playing styles.

Here's an old rig pic BTW...

I had the same exact pile -- the PV+, the metal grill Uber blue rev, the Uberkab -- up until recently in my studio.
The Recto-sounding Uber went bye bye (after lots of problems and a trip to Hollywood, not convinced it was really fixed), but I kept the cab.

If Diezel distortion is anything like the Uber blue rev's, or if the voicing is similar, well, my wallet can breathe a sigh of relief.

Guess I'll start looking at Makos and Elmwoods. Or something more Marshally than Rectolly. (hee! "rectally")

 

[BigR]

Which single channel of which Diezel amp will naturally cover both the above rhythm and lead sounds the best without having to switch anything or play with any knobs?

it'd be hard, if not impossible, to get everything from a single channel, on any amp, without touching any knobs or switches.

with my PV I just play the rhythm parts and play the lead parts without stepping on anything or switching anything except maybe a flick of the pickup switch for a neck tone lead part. It's one of the many reasons I love that amp.

I like to blend rhythm and lead parts. Kinda limiting to have an amp where ya gotta switch channels or step on something every time you go from riff to lead fill and back. The PV sounds good for both. Cutting rhythm, warm sweet lead. If I step on something, it's the loop or the clean channel.

So I guess there's not too much overlap between the Ds and the PV. They are different animals, and that's okay. My wallet agrees it's okay. A local store has a Herb. I don't go within 10 miles of the place. I can't afford to like it.

Ok, I understand where you're comin from better, now, as far as blending R & L parts. I was thinking more along the lines of a band, or even recording situation, where you'd want your lead to stand out over a 2nd guitar's rhythm. I agree, though, that the PV and Diezel are two completely different animals. One might get somewhat close to the other, but never the same, just as I can never get my Diezel to cop my Ecstasy's tones. The settings I listed were my best guess to get a 5150 type vibe out of a Herbert, but it still won't be the same-the character of the distortions, if nothing else, are just too different. To each his own tone, I guess. I found what I was looking for in the Herbert, and like it for what it does best, which is sound like a Herbert. I played a 6505+ for the first time recently, and may very well end up getting one at some point, once I offload some other gear.
My local dealer hasn't had a VH4, which I've been dying to try, for a while now-when they do, I need to do like you and get at LEAST 10 miles away, and fast. I'd never get to enjoy it after my wife finished hacking at me with a chainsaw Then again, she cant tell, and doesn't know, the difference between a Diezel and a Line6. I still haven't convinced her that there's any difference between a LP Custom, and a $99 LP copy from WalMart Which makes guitar and/or amp shopping a chore.

 

[BigR]

If Diezel distortion is anything like the Uber blue rev's, or if the voicing is similar, well, my wallet can breathe a sigh of relief.

Hide your wallet, the distortions are pretty different At least in my opinion. I sold my Rev Blue Uber last month (wish now I hadn't), and had it at the same time as the Diezel. I don't know how to really describe it, but the distortions are just...different. I guess the Uber has a more saturated sounding distortion. They are both voiced rather dark, though, and both have massive low ends, and can cover a lot of the same ground.

 

[FZRJunkie]

ha ha, yeah I was married once.
Once.

So, Big R. I know it's completely different and more hi-fi and all, and there's no real comparison, but for a chance at a million dollars, would you say the Herbie is closer to a Recto voicing, or a classic Marshall voicing?

 

[BigR]

ha ha, yeah I was married once.
Once.

So, Big R. I know it's completely different and more hi-fi and all, and there's no real comparison, but for a chance at a million dollars, would you say the Herbie is closer to a Recto voicing, or a classic Marshall voicing?

For a chance at a $million, and with no desire whatsoever to argue or defend my answer, then: if a Recto voicing is at 0, and a classic Marshall at 100, I'd put Herbie at maybe a 40-45. To my ears, its a little closer to the darker, bassier character of a Recto than the the classic midrange bark of a Marshall. I think Herbie can cover most if not all of the music styles & tones Recto's are known for better than it can cover the stuff classic Marshalls are known for. Thats strictly my opinion after about 8-9 months with the Herbert, and with my guitars and cabs. Others may, and probably will disagree, and may well be able to get closer to the Marshall vibe using different settings and equipment.
Not to say it can't get into Marshall territory, especially high gain Marshall, i.e. Maiden, Priest, etc., it just find it easier to get into Recto territory. Like you said, there's no real comparison-Diezels have their own very unique sound.

So, just how big is my chance at the million

 

[FZRJunkie]

So, just how big is my chance at the million

yer chances aren't too shabby considering that's one of the best answers I've ever read on the subject

that jives well with what I pretty much thought, slightly on the Recto side of the Mesa Recto <-> Marshall spectrum, without being a "Recto-clone done better", like the Uber, the Recto-isms of which cannot be dialed out.

But I'm not ready to let you go yet. Can you compare it to the dry-as-a-desert VHT sound? Or is it more gooey? My guess is it's slightly on the VHT side of the continuum due to its high-fidelity, but not bone-dry, and more harmonically rich. I get the feeling they are super-tight though, and am worried about the stiffness and coldness I suspect are inherent in Diezels -- which is also why the metal community adores them. I like it warmer and not as stiff, with a little give. And by that I'm not talking about tube recto sag, more like--oh fudge, here's that overused word again--"organic". I've read enough opinions on this forum to know that that word can't really be applied to Diezels, with the lesser exception of the Einstein.

Eh. Who am I kidding. I ain't gonna have the bank to get anything like this anytime soon, even used (I'd much prefer new). But that VH4 feature set sure appeals to me. An effects loop for each channel, right? Gah, I'd stick a different fave or two in each one and just leave 'em on. Also from what I understand, it's the meanest amp there is. I could get so naughty. I'm just concerned I wouldn't gel with the core sound. I am equally concerned that I would and I'd have to start holding up liquor stores or selling rocks like half the forum apparently does to be able to afford these insanely priced boxes of bolts.

 

[scottph]

Sounds to me like you already made the decision to get one...deep inside...

To me Diezels sound much more "marshally" than "reto" as a matter of fact, but better, and definately not sterile like a VHT.

 

[Joeytpg]

hey FZRjunkie, what can I tell ya buddy ehehhe we've all been there.

If you're happy with your Peavey, stay with it and save some cash. But if GAS really beats you, then you should try em.....

It's not that they sound marshall or recto, it's more or less than the Herbert sounds MODERN and the VH4 sounds a lot less scooped.

listen to this two clips, they are VERY good representation of how each sound

Einstein Lead: (this is VERY acurate, the recording captured the vibe very well)

Herbert:

VH4:

 

[synchu]

For Einy I would rather say that the general vibe is here at the above, though the possibilities are endless. I prefer more highs and less drive

 

[shadow070]

I have the Herbert for a view weeks now and im amazed by the amp. Everything youve red and heared is true. There is a big defference in both the VH4 and Herbert, try to play them both as much as possible and make the decision yourself. I went for the herbert because i like a more looser feel, the herbert breaths more than the VH4. I didnt get the chance to play the Herbert but only the VH4. The vh4 was to harsh and dry for my liking, so i took a shot in the dark with the Herbert and im verry happy. It could be that there was something with the tubes, cab or something else but i didnt like the VH4. The VH4 clips ive been hearing the last view months are damn nice and ill deffenantly give it a try next time i come across.

None off them or like a marshall or a mesa, when youve had youre amps youlle know. Iff you buy one off these, buy them because off there own sound and not because there like XXXXXX but different, this doesnt work and you will end up selling the amp after a while. Its normal that it has a tone close to a nother amp but dont take this as a starting point. Think about the things like the voicing, its capabilitys, how it reacts to youre playing style etc.

I really liked the Diezel sound i heard on the net. I have a Engl SE, this is an amp that is voiced with alot off mid(freq) and i wanted a sound thats not that based around mids as the Engl. Now i can pick one or the other depending on my mood. BTW there 2 different kind off animals, the tone and feel are worlds appart.

 

[BigR]

hey FZRjunkie, what can I tell ya buddy ehehhe we've all been there.

If you're happy with your Peavey, stay with it and save some cash. But if GAS really beats you, then you should try em.....

It's not that they sound marshall or recto, it's more or less than the Herbert sounds MODERN and the VH4 sounds a lot less scooped.

Damned GAS This thread reminded me that I still want a 6506+. Reminded me why I've had to avoid gear shops lately, too. I think you hit the nail on the head, Joey. Modern is a better description of the Herbert, though I guess in many ways the Recto defines the modern sound, while the Marshall describes the classic sound. Mostly semantics, anyways. I still personally feel the Herbert is closer to Recto than Marshall by a hair. Thats a good part of the reason I no longer have a Recto, but still have a JVM.

FZRjunkie, I agree 100% with you about the Uber blue having more a recto vibe than a Marshall. I stated that opinion once on the Boogie Board and got my head bitten off. The Uber is, I guess, based on a hot rodded Marshall circuit, and therefore my "correct" answer was supposed to be that is was Marshally. Don't care if it has a Vox circuit, it still sounds more like a Recto to me. I guess it goes to show how different describe the same sound different ways.

Nice clips, btw, Joey. Loved that VH4 clip-now I REALLY have to avoid trying one, at least for a while.

 

[Joeytpg]

thank you BigR......if you don't wanna spend the cash stay AWAY!! hehee don't try it, just go back and play with you r Herbert!

 

[BigR]

thank you BigR......if you don't wanna spend the cash stay AWAY!! hehee don't try it, just go back and play with you r Herbert!

Yeah, staying away is probably my best bet. I still haven't given a good play test to a Diezel cab-I'll be done for if I find a VH4 AND a FL cab. On the other hand, why fight it-it just takes too much energy<----See, I'm already trying to rationalize buying one Death at the hands of my wife SHOULD convince me, but doesn't. I can run faster than her.

Christ, I need DA (Diezel Anonymous).